If canisters were real...
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Warrior
Member # 7735
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written Friday, December 29 2006 14:41
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How could anyone resist the temptation and just use canisters in moderation? Once you've used the canisters, you'll want more. Canisters are like drugs, but even more addictive. Eventually, you'll have to slurp more canisters, and at an snowballing rate. Even a purist shaper can be eventually tempted by the seized canister, use it and become Barzhal, using more and more every day. Training in the end won't matter, unless you're strong enough to resist it forever. Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Friday, December 29 2006 14:46
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Canisters are of course inherently addictive, but not to the extent that a trained mind could not resist the temptation after only using one. I do agree, though, that moderation is practically impossible unless moderation means using a few and then stopping completely forever. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7735
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written Friday, December 29 2006 14:53
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A great possible problem with the shaper army is that they can't easily train all their apprentices the more powerful creations, such as ur-glaahks and drayks (assuming they're not banned). Canisters can help win the war; they're easy to make, and they will give the apprentices some quick power. One or two to each shaper can give them a massive advantage. Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Friday, December 29 2006 15:06
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Until the drayks, ur-glaahks, and other creations go rogue and attack their masters because they learned how to make creations through canisters without learning how to control them. That's what brought the Barzites down. Dikiyoba. Edit: Typo. [ Friday, December 29, 2006 15:08: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ] Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Friday, December 29 2006 15:20
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in the long term time always seems to be on the side of the shapers. In geneforge one the takers are trying to build up as much power as possible before the shapers find out about them. In Geneforge 2 every faction in the moutians was rushing to build up a defence against the shapers. In geneforge 3 the rebillion is in a rush to build the geneforge before the shapers discover it. (From what I know of it) the rebillion is desperate to destroy the shapers before they fall apart at the seems. Shapers always seem to have time as their ally and powerfull ally it is. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5483
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written Friday, December 29 2006 15:23
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quote:BINGO! Right on the mark! This is exactly what I meant. -------------------- Ignorance Is bliss -Cypher (Matrix) Don't think you can; know you can -Morpheus (Matrix) sanity is overrated :) Posts: 130 | Registered: Monday, February 7 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Friday, December 29 2006 16:55
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We are talking if canisters were real right? So that means no load previous game, so unless you were with the maker, you wouldn't know if the one you were using was one of the "best" canisters. If I were a shaper aprentice with access to trainers I would not use canisters and use my enemies madness and ego against them. In the end, I think the strongest people in the Geneforge world are probably the older shapers without modification. They have the capasity to think rationally and stay alive longer with less danger so they may progress and plan. I have have great disdain for the rebels. As long as I live the Shapers shall recieve my loyalty with the hope that I may one day be high enough up to make some moderate changes. -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, December 29 2006 18:13
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quote:By Geneforge 4, all such people are either dead or hiding in fortresses in fear of death, with one or two exceptions. The frailty of followers of the old ways has already been proven. Soon, the Shaper Council will go the way of Rahul, and the defeat of the weak will be complete. In real life it would be the same way. How could anyone hope to stand up against the canister augmented? No, they're not just going to kill each other off. Remember, they have far less patience with the unshaped than they do with each other. You fools who refused the glory of canisters will be long since dead or enslaved before the real fighting between gods begins. Where do you want to be when that happens, on the top, or on the bottom? On humanity: I hate that the word 'human' has become synonymous with empathy and compassion. There are so many people in the world today that are in power and still lack these characteristics. Adding canisters to the equation would mean little. On the flip side, human is also synonymous with mistake... -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Friday, December 29 2006 19:23
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Intresting how you will never be able to compelty drive it out of you. Humans and other senients are prone to make mistakes. Since canisters are made by humans canisters are infected with humanity. Same goes for the geneforge. You may be able to dilute the humanity out of you but never drive it from you. While canisters and the geneforge may rule the realm the of the shapers I doubt they rule this realm with the same impunity. We already have our own super weapons. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7735
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 13:22
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So Lord Safey, you think it's good to use every canister you can get your hands on because you will always have a strand of humanity left? That would be such an advantage to powermongers such as myself. Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 13:41
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no all warmongers want to rid them selfs of their humanity completly and they will never be able to completly do it. Even if it is overwhelminly small. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 14:40
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Just because the canister shaped have a little more patience and respect for others like them does not mean that they will fully cooperate with each other. They will be unable to put the group cause in front of their own lives, and so the movement will fall apart at the seams at the first sign of hardships. I am curious though, what exactly would the canister movement fight for? Regarding the diluting humanity with shaping, if canister use is completely condoned, then some radical among radicals will turn themselves into some Ur-human. Hopefully it will not resemble Vahnatai. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7735
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 15:04
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The canister movement... They might fight for global domination, but most likely: more canisters! Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7630
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 15:37
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Coulden't they just use the canisters for good and we could all live in peace? All we have to do is kill all the poeple who use them & use them (for ourselves of course) to take over the wourld eraticating the remianing canistiers then turning upon ourselves and kill everyone who used them for good ^_^ What a wonderful world it would be Of course one person would have to stay out of it all and keep the good cans for himself so that when the poeple who used them are all nice and pushing up daisys he(or she)Can rise up (use the cans) & make sure all the cans are gone and that NOONE ever uses them agian When this person is close to dieing he(or she)can kill all his freinds a famliy (just in case anyone would know about the secret cans) then give them to some unexpecting(but bright) fool who with carry on the mission. then the person can kill him(or herself)Then it will all repeat. ^_^ [ Saturday, December 30, 2006 15:45: Message edited by: Exiled Necromancer ] -------------------- Phobias are afraid of Chuck Norris. Posts: 29 | Registered: Saturday, November 4 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 16:19
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well all I have to say about canister users is your argoance is my greatest weapon. Each person has their weakness and with fortunaly with canister users that is always arrogance. It is never good to have such a preidcitable flaw. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7735
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 17:09
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Sure, kill people to bring peace. :D Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 17:17
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true humans can't fight wars if we don't exist. -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 18:14
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If the ultimate goal of the canister movement is just to get more canisters, then soon its followers will realize that every canister used by someone else is one less for them. Then civil war will ensue. Really, where is the motive? To Exiled Necromancer, I spent more time typing this than I did trying to decipher your message. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 18:35
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EDIT: That was dumb. [ Saturday, December 30, 2006 18:36: Message edited by: Garrison ] -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7735
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 19:10
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quote:But every nation has its own problems. There may be a lot of infighting for the canister movement, but with strong authority (leadership) one could control the movement and lead them to victory! They would create uber creations and easily rampage over the hostile armies. Posts: 107 | Registered: Monday, December 4 2006 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 19:12
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Exiled Necromancer - What makes you so sure that every hyped-up can-mad freak would be so willing to commit suicide and live peacefully in a world ripe for the taking? And wouldn't it be just a little bit suspicious if an entire family/friend web with one connection to a single uber-person was suddenly murdered for no apparent reason? People would investigate, my anti-friend. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 20:59
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quote:Sorry, but no. The Barzite ending in Geneforge 2 showed that it is indeed possible to rid yourself of that last "nagging" shred of humanity through canisters. Garrison: The "canister movement" in my vision would fight not only for the rights to use canisters, but also against creationocracy. When given independence, creations try to dominate those around them, and for that they must be put in their place. The movement would stay together out of necessity. Canisters may make you arrogant, but they don’t make you retarded. No one person would stand a chance against an army of canister enlightened people. The only way they will be able to gain more power is to grit their teeth, submit to me, and earn their canisters one by one, like everyone else. Sure, everyone would want to have their own little piece of the world, if not the whole things, but they would quickly learn the value of allies in such times of total war. Those of you that say it would never work overestimate, or possibly underestimate, the power of arrogance. If these people really seek what is best for themselves, they will work together, no matter how grudgingly so. Just look at the leaders of the rebellion. It is possible, no, it is inevitable. Exiled Necromancer: What? -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 21:33
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ET, while I agree you should not underestimate people in the need of using allies, you also should not underestimate those people's egos and their capacity for great pettiness that will destroy such alliances. And while sanity is an illusion, their is a such thing as just too unstable. -"Show me a sane man and I will fix him." PS: I think that your ideas would just lead to multiple Shaper (maybe put that in quotations?) Monarchs. You'll understand if you play G4. [ Saturday, December 30, 2006 21:35: Message edited by: Retlaw May ] -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 7298
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 22:13
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You don't seek perfection you seek power perfection is merely addition to your power and power should never be sought for the sake of power. If I was to use canisters it would be to try to surive and try to bring back a lasting peace .I have a goal and my ambitions have a limit and will cease when my goals have been fufilled. You and your army seek power for the sake and always hunger of it. You lead an army of infiviuals who do nothing if it doesn't benfit themself. They all have a hunger for power that can't be filled.My goals are acheivable albiet hard but once their acheive I am happy. Your lust for power will never be filled your goals can never be acheives for you seek to do the impossible, that is to statisify your lust for power. You may defeat me but I know you can never truley succed. As soon as you can no longer feed your armies lust for power your armies will fracture and your lust will cause you to betray everything you worked for. I beleive that day will come a lot sooner then you think. [ Saturday, December 30, 2006 22:16: Message edited by: Lord Safey ] -------------------- A rock has weight whether you admit it or not Posts: 479 | Registered: Wednesday, July 12 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Saturday, December 30 2006 23:04
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I think Safey was arguing against ET, but I am not even sure anymore. Alliances begrudgingly forged do not really last for very long. If each "canister enlightened" individual wants the right to use more canisters and disenfranchise creations, then they do not have to submit to a movement like you describe. The motive still does not explain it all adequately. Remember that I am not saying that the movement would fail, just that the army you envision would actually have to be much weaker and more disorganized. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |