High level scenarios wanted

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AuthorTopic: High level scenarios wanted
Agent
Member # 1993
Profile #0
As everybody knows, experience increases rather quickly in the beginning and starts to slow down, when you come to higher levels. Thus, a party spends much more time, exploring scenarios at a high level. Strictly speaking, we need exactly one low level scenario - and VoDT is a perfect one: After completing it, the party will have level between 10 and 20.

So please, honourable creators, don't overstock us with low level scenarios. Who wants always start with a new party ( and feel the lack of all the hard collected spells, you had already before ...)?
We need more tough and tricky scens! We survived DwtD and expect some real challenge ...
TM, no insult against RoR. I think anyway, that you declared it too low. It could rather be for L12 then for 1-6

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(o
LL

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Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00
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Member # 67
Profile Homepage #1
Low-level scenarios are often made because the designer then gets much more control over the combat difficulty.

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Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram.

New Mac BoE
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Shaper
Member # 22
Profile #2
I personally find low level scenarios far more fun to play - there's more variety in your playing technique then there is in high level scenarios - in high scenarios, you've settled on one strategy. Low level scenarios make you think a lot more.
Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #3
I've been messing around with combat in a level 35-40 scenario and then also testing it with a god party, and honestly, it is far more entertaining for me than the combats in RoR or BS. Having ~30 health just didn't do it for me. I suspect that BoA, unlike BoE, will not become pointless at very high levels. One could design a scenario for level 70-80 and get away with it.

The tactical challeneges would be completely different at extremely high levels, though. You'd have to assume that the party had Lethal Blow and Magical Efficiency at extremely high levels, so they could one-hit anything below their level and their spells would cost almost nothing to cast. Moreover, you'd have to be pretty judicious with the weapons that you gave them: giving them only crude daggers would lead to interesting results, but you might annoy the player. Giving them high-powered artifacts would also be interesting, but you'd have to make the combats even harder.

Hmm. Sounds like there's an article in there. I think I'll write that in the next few days.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Warrior
Member # 4204
Profile #4
The point is the need for a variety of diffrent difficulties. Part of the fun (for me, at least) in BoE was taking a party through a circuit of increasingly difficult scenarios and watching their skills grow. I don't relish the thought of having to build a new party for every scenario that comes out because reusing my old party would remove all the challenges.

This isn't to say that low level scenarios serve no purpose. That's an obvious falsehood, as BoE boasted numerous well-done low level scenarios. It's just that in these early days of BoA, it would be nice to spread out the development a little to liven things up a bit.

In shot, variety is all that's being asked for. I think that's reasonable.

[ Wednesday, April 28, 2004 06:31: Message edited by: Wotan ]

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What really went on there, we only have this excerpt...
Posts: 68 | Registered: Sunday, April 4 2004 08:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #5
I think that lower level scenarios are just more fun. The difference in capability between a level-1 party and a level-10 is enormous; thus, as the scenario progresses, a player will feel a real sense of accomplishment as s/he is able to breeze through those pesky bandits that actually represented a real threat before.

The difference between a level-70 party and a level-80 party, on the other hand, is not so pronounced. At this point, either the characters will be able to conquer an encounter or they won't - gaining a few levels will likely have a negligible impact. How do you compensate for this loss of the thrill of progression? By either a.) telling an engrossing story that makes up for it, or b.) creating items that radically effect the party's capabilities in the particular scenario. The first is quite difficult to accomplish - what are the characters' motivations once they become gods and rule in their flying castles? How the heck did denizens of power comparible to their own ever surface without their knowing/not already annihilate wide swaths of civilization? - and the second can be pretty unbalancing.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Warrior
Member # 4278
Profile Homepage #6
^ just because it is more difficult to make a good high-level scenario, doesnt make them less fun.

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Pathological Jerk
Jerking at Spiderweb since 1999
Posts: 143 | Registered: Sunday, April 18 2004 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #7
^What I'm saying is that I think it is more difficult to make a *fun* high-level scenario. I think my rationale is a pretty good explanation for why there may be more *fun* lower-level scenarios.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 3988
Profile #8
A high level party can play a low level scenario and still have fun. Just have your characters do the opposite of what they usually do. (For instance, have your magic users be fighters and your fighters be magic users.) Of course, this wont work if you already trained your characters to be good at everything.
Posts: 6 | Registered: Sunday, February 15 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 2123
Profile #9
Just create a scenario that starts off low and builds the party up (and I mean like up to 40-60 range).

Granted that it (the scenario) will be large and difficult to keep the players interest in it, but just wait, I shall do it and it will be great.
Posts: 228 | Registered: Monday, October 21 2002 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #10
quote:
Just create a scenario that starts off low and builds the party up (and I mean like up to 40-60 range).

This would be a very large scenario. It would be larger than VoDT, ASR, ZKR, and DWtD put together. It would need about 100 towns, probably.

Hmm. That sounds like something that *i would do, come to think of it :P

EDIT: Look! I wrote an article!

[ Wednesday, April 28, 2004 14:12: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #11
I vote too for scenario for high level party.

Adventadges at higher levels are numerous :
- More skills because new skills become available.
- There are new spells available.
- More energy to cast more spells.
- More HP to receive more hits.
- Possibily stronger differences bewteen the PC. So more game diversity available for the player.

Overall, it means new stuff unlike again and again the same stuff in scenario only for level 1 parties.

It also means much more diversity in tactical choices for the fights, at least with 4 PC.

It allows to build up a same team and gives it a long history, that's a bit fascinating.

In comparison adventadges for level 1 parties seems weak for me:
- Start inexperimented and weak? Well in fact most scenario are strongly not realistic about that. There are plenty scenario possibilities around a known party that couldn't apply for a handful of newbies. In my opinion much more appart if you plan do a very big scenario.
- Better level difficulty management? Well perhaps because for level 1 to 3 it doesn't allow that much level up possibilities to let a player do a weak party. That's already not true at the end of the scenario near to level 10/14.
- No a level 35 party doesn't rule everything. Authors will say it better but it seems there's a large choice for a high level party. At least they are very far to be gods. I bet level 45/50 party won't be more gods.

[ Wednesday, April 28, 2004 14:14: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #12
The problem with high level scenarios is twofold. First, you have no idea what scenarios the party has played. They might have gone through a TM or Andres Gonzales type scenario and picked up a stack of Super-Duper-Killing-Sticks. Or they might have played a few Bixler ones - much more spartan. At the same level, there can be a huge range in strength.

But this is really a more technical problem. You can find ways to get around it. To my mind, the real trouble with high level parties is that THE PLAYER KNOWS THEM.

People say they like building up a party and watching it develop. Fair enough. But to do that over the course of multiple scenarios, no one scenario can define the party as a character. This robs designers of a very powerful tool. The main character in the scenario has to be a non-entity.

For example, if you build up your party to level 80 or so, you're basically going to view them as your 'lads'. You tell them to go beat that guy up, they do, and do it well. But if any designer starts trying to impose a past history or any sort of personality on them, the player isn't going to go along with that. "Hey? No, I'm not a loyal soldier of whatsit, I'm out for the loot! Don't tell me what I want!"

This can still work for some design styles, but it severely restricts others. If you have no hand in the character of the party, you can either build an intricate world that responds to their every little choice - difficult - or you must not allow them to have any real choices - bland.

Personally, I doubt I'll ever make another scenario without a pre-made party, high or low level.

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Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #13
Regardging players not wanting to make a new party for every low-level scenario: if you don't want to make a new party, keep backup savefiles of your old one at various different levels (as many BoE players do). If you don't want to keep multiple savefiles, then you have to make new parties as you need them. Can't get fairer than that.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Shake Before Using
Member # 75
Profile #14
Any party I make I treat as "my lads" and expect them to kill anything I point them at and do so well.

I dislike prefab parties because, often, I point at things and then I die. -_-
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
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Member # 67
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Do people really have level 60-70 parties at the moment? That comes to playing all the existing scenarios more than twice, possibly more than three times.

Surely nobody would keep on playing through repeatedly with horribly overpowered parties that kill everything easily?

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Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram.

New Mac BoE
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #16
quote:
Do people really have level 60-70 parties at the moment?
It's really not that hard to make them, though, either using a HLPM or (presumably, haven't tried) using the Character Editor.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3719
Profile Homepage #17
What about mid-level scenarios, maybe even mid-high level, something is needed to get to the 60-80 level :)

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fishing
Posts: 294 | Registered: Monday, November 24 2003 08:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #18
I never really take the time to save after I leave a scenario. I have a level 1 singleton and a level 17 singleton. Both would die horribly in a difficult scenario, but I don't really care.

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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3719
Profile Homepage #19
There - include a pre-fab party for underlevel singleton's :)

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fishing
Posts: 294 | Registered: Monday, November 24 2003 08:00
Agent
Member # 1993
Profile #20
quote:
Originally written by Khoth:

Do people really have level 60-70 parties at the moment? That comes to playing all the existing scenarios more than twice, possibly more than three times.
I have a 40/42 party and my lowest save is a singleton L17 (after VoDT).
Yes, I played every scen two or three times, they are worth it.

The reason, why I keep my high level party trough all scens: they know a lot of spells and I can get rid of bearing all that crystals and scrolls with me.
I ponder, if it would be possible, to get levels over 50/60 without cheating. After 40, it raises reeeeally slow :P

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Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 1886
Profile #21
I personally would like to see more in the way of high level scenarios. Newby parties can be fun and all, but there's nothing like dusting off a group of powerful characters and using them to brutally slaughter your way through disgustingly over-powered monsters. Give them all weapons that do damage based entirely on pathfinding! Have them face dragons, and liches, and leviathans (oh my!).

When I started thinking about the scenario I'm working on, these are some of the thoughts that came to mind when I decided to try challenging a mid to high level party played by an experienced player.

Tactics? Bah!
Planning? Keep moving!
Monsters? Insanely powerful.
Fighting? "Holy (expletive deleted)!! Here comes another one!!"
Time? What do you mean we only have 2 days?!

If I can figure out how to work with the scripting, this should be pretty good.
:cool: :D

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Posts: 505 | Registered: Saturday, September 14 2002 07:00
BANNED
Member # 4
Profile Homepage #22
Was that supposed to be funny?

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Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 1886
Profile #23
Not really, just very descriptive. I'm trying to make a much briefer version of Zha Kaazi Run. One that actually makes you run and sticks to the theme of not wasting time, because you don't have any. Punishment for wasting time varies from instant death to impossible battles. This is an all or nothing type scenario, where failure to make the delivery in time means pretty much certain doom. :D Yeah, I'm a twisted and evil designer. :cool:

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The Home of 8-bit Theater!

Some cool WoT art here

Nono! Bad Surfer!!

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Posts: 505 | Registered: Saturday, September 14 2002 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #24
This sounds as though it will involve a lot of saving and reloading. Be careful not to make it too much, or it will get annoying.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00

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