Profile for Vent


Recent posts

Pages

AuthorRecent posts
Weird archery bug! in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #13
You are probably right with one archer in the party, with four archer and all arrows/bolts lost, I'm not sure.

Additionaly the problem is that it makes you carry much more bolts/arrows that have a strong weight.

[ Monday, May 31, 2004 17:50: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
The HLPM is finished! in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #9
Extremly good job, thanks for this tool.

1 - First a little BoA bug
At first try, I was in window mode and didn't care to turn sound off (computer sound is off). I choosed level up to 30, walked on the xp rune, got slow (because of sound) level up to 10 then the game never continue. I had force quit it.

Then I tried again but set sound off. The level up to 30 was immediate and didn't cause any problem.

I was using version BoA 1.0.1, OSX 10.2.8. If you want more testing or deeper report, just ask.

Perhaps you could change a bit the message that advices turn off the sound?

2 - Nice polishing
I enjoyed the polishing like:
* The money message in the log. :)
* Or like keeping the cursor on talk mode after to have talked to a merchant.
* Or like the mage. :D
* That kicked my ass to quote that merchant items are adapted to party level. With a good polishing that could be a great tool for players and authors in order to not get an over-equipped party to play or test a scenario or even design a scenario.

It has basically anything you could want and in fact more. So, from this point of view apart perhaps the sound off message, I have no suggestion to do.

3 - Never satisfied ;)
That said, it's just matter of taste, there are few points I would have prefer a bit different:
* The Obelisks are very pratical but they require you step near them. So, I'd prefer them to be some guards you could talk with.
* There are many merchants and that's a good choice in order to implement the pratical items sort used. But this make them less easy to remember. Perhaps you could use some visual hints for some of them like putting some items on the tables.
* Another solution that I had prefer would have been to have all merchants spread on a smaller area, like to not use the tables and to have different set of rows of merchants near to each other. Less realistic but probably more pratical.
* About the gold given, it's not very pratical to throw some when you have too much. You could buy some items and drop them but best of the best would be to also have a NPC that ask you how much gold to drop/get if that's possible with an input text dialog. If that's not possible then perhaps another system like through a special merchant, though a dialogue or something else.
* I'd wish a system more clear for a party that isn't level 1. From few tests I did it seems to work nicely but you need choose in the first dialog the party level that your party already have, or more exactely you need choose the level of the items you want in shops. That case of use is standard, it's when you just want get some items. In fact it's just making the first dialog a bit more clear for this case like just changing a bit dialog text?
* About the items available depending or party level as it is, it is already very nice. Perhaps some players could provide a rougher but more detailed scale still based on bundled scenario.

4 - More, more and even more :P
The tool is so near to perfection that I doubt anybody will care to do another one similar. In that point of view, much later versions could include some other features like:
* Dummies to test hitting percentadges or perhaps even to test some spells effects.
* Damaging area to test protections.
* Combat arena in order to test a bit the party/items used.
* Perhaps even enemie mages that cast defined spells on defined area and/or at defined trigger.
* Despite the unlock system is very clear for the player, perhaps some stuff around that could allow to test something useful but not that clear? Like using the spell unlock?
* It's weird that BoA doesn't allow to lost xp levels otherwise that would have been a great addition in this tool.

[ Monday, May 31, 2004 17:42: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #106
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

It convinces me that this was, in fact, the reason in the designer's mind that the School wasn't closed. It still doesn't cohere with the rest of the story, but this was Jeff's reason.
There are in fact few clues about that possibility but no evidence. BUT the clues or hints are so minor that I doubt that it's a valid assessment.
quote:
Palhatis had time to MAKE AN INTELLIGENT SHADE AND STICK HIM IN THE CONTROL AREA, but he didn't have time to PRESS A BUTTON.

I think that it's not right, you are doing the same error than Thuryl: You are doing an interpration of more than there is in the text and you accuse your interpretation to not be coherent. In fact it just proves your interpretation is wrong.

A first interpretation you are doing is that he didn't press the button because of time reason. Wrong, there's no evidence that time is the cause.

Secondly, there's no evidence that this construct has been build for this occasion. Furthermore there are evidence that there's most chance it wasn't build for this occasion, another quote:
Research done in the school: "Magical thinking devices. This is irrelevant to my message."

quote:
And Thuryl's point is correct: pressing the button did NOT release some unknown danger. The mages were familiar with the cleanup system, because THEY BUILT IT.
Again, I don't agree, there are evidence they had no clean-up mechanism ready and that Pahlatis build one during the last week.

quote:
And moreover, the statement, "he made sure that the controls to the waste disposal unit remained. These controls might still be activated," indicates that Palhatis specifically knew what the controls did.
I agree, and as he build up the cleaning solution during the last week, we could hope he knew how use it.

quote:
I've been thinking, "This is all very interesting, but there is much more to this story." Palhatis's statement, "my speaking out against the evacuation and what we're leaving behind have only made me enemies," seems to indicate that Vinnia hates him and eventually murders him primarily because he wants to clean up the waste.
I disagree, when this was written by Palhatis he hadn't setup yet a cleanup solution. So "because he wants to clean up the waste" is wrong.
quote:
Palhatis had time to make an entire covert setup for someone else to come along and push a couple of buttons and clean up all of the waste, but there was so little time before the school closed that cleaning up the waste would delay the closing of the school and therefore anger the Empire. This doesn't make sense.
I agree, there's a strong hole here but I disagree that "it doesn't make sense". From the archeological point of view, there is a lack of clues to make an interpretation about this point. There's still a place forme some supposition that are neither complicate nor silly. So it's just a hole, nothing else.
quote:
Yes, one can make up explanations that turn all of this into reasonable plot material. But a true archeological scenario would not require the player to invent explanations to fill plot holes. The story of what had happened before would become central to gameplay.
I disagree, archeology is strongly based on inventing explanation, you never get 100% clear and certain conclusions.

That said, some hole should have been fill, at least partialy.
quote:
Having said all of this, I still like VoDT. I don't think these points are critical to the enjoyment of the scenario. I just think it could've been better if more was done with this.
I agree... and for my taste, that's a better way of improvement than developing the moral here. For a better moral development, the scenario should have been totally different in my opinion, at least in order to prevade a good fun.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #106
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

It convinces me that this was, in fact, the reason in the designer's mind that the School wasn't closed. It still doesn't cohere with the rest of the story, but this was Jeff's reason.
There are in fact few clues about that possibility but no evidence. BUT the clues or hints are so minor that I doubt that it's a valid assessment.
quote:
Palhatis had time to MAKE AN INTELLIGENT SHADE AND STICK HIM IN THE CONTROL AREA, but he didn't have time to PRESS A BUTTON.

I think that it's not right, you are doing the same error than Thuryl: You are doing an interpration of more than there is in the text and you accuse your interpretation to not be coherent. In fact it just proves your interpretation is wrong.

A first interpretation you are doing is that he didn't press the button because of time reason. Wrong, there's no evidence that time is the cause.

Secondly, there's no evidence that this construct has been build for this occasion. Furthermore there are evidence that there's most chance it wasn't build for this occasion, another quote:
Research done in the school: "Magical thinking devices. This is irrelevant to my message."

quote:
And Thuryl's point is correct: pressing the button did NOT release some unknown danger. The mages were familiar with the cleanup system, because THEY BUILT IT.
Again, I don't agree, there are evidence they had no clean-up mechanism ready and that Pahlatis build one during the last week.

quote:
And moreover, the statement, "he made sure that the controls to the waste disposal unit remained. These controls might still be activated," indicates that Palhatis specifically knew what the controls did.
I agree, and as he build up the cleaning solution during the last week, we could hope he knew how use it.

quote:
I've been thinking, "This is all very interesting, but there is much more to this story." Palhatis's statement, "my speaking out against the evacuation and what we're leaving behind have only made me enemies," seems to indicate that Vinnia hates him and eventually murders him primarily because he wants to clean up the waste.
I disagree, when this was written by Palhatis he hadn't setup yet a cleanup solution. So "because he wants to clean up the waste" is wrong.
quote:
Palhatis had time to make an entire covert setup for someone else to come along and push a couple of buttons and clean up all of the waste, but there was so little time before the school closed that cleaning up the waste would delay the closing of the school and therefore anger the Empire. This doesn't make sense.
I agree, there's a strong hole here but I disagree that "it doesn't make sense". From the archeological point of view, there is a lack of clues to make an interpretation about this point. There's still a place forme some supposition that are neither complicate nor silly. So it's just a hole, nothing else.
quote:
Yes, one can make up explanations that turn all of this into reasonable plot material. But a true archeological scenario would not require the player to invent explanations to fill plot holes. The story of what had happened before would become central to gameplay.
I disagree, archeology is strongly based on inventing explanation, you never get 100% clear and certain conclusions.

That said, some hole should have been fill, at least partialy.
quote:
Having said all of this, I still like VoDT. I don't think these points are critical to the enjoyment of the scenario. I just think it could've been better if more was done with this.
I agree... and for my taste, that's a better way of improvement than developing the moral here. For a better moral development, the scenario should have been totally different in my opinion, at least in order to prevade a good fun.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #104
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

Funny how they had the time to destroy an entire floor of the School, but not to press a button, isn't it?
Do you think that the people that destroyed the school knew the existence of the push button? Could you quote any fact showing that?

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

You've made your point, but you've also shown that the scenario still has serious plot holes that it doesn't satisfactorily fill.
Hole like the "hole" you quoted above? There are holes but what are the holes?

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

As for the last two messages, it's clear from the context that they relate to two conditions that didn't apply to the mages closing the School: the party not knowing exactly what all the machinery does, and the defenses having failed over time after the School was closed.
Really? For me the hole is that the party could make the second guess. The first guest is coming from another part I didn't quoted here. I quote it:

It says "Activate Purification Process. Danger - Safety Off" Next to the light is a tiny switch. You could push the switch. However, you're a tiny bit nervous about the whole Safety thing.

At the reverse, I don't see any evidence that those assessment wasn't valid in the past. Saying the reverse is only pure guess based on no quoted fact. Or can you quote any?
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #104
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

Funny how they had the time to destroy an entire floor of the School, but not to press a button, isn't it?
Do you think that the people that destroyed the school knew the existence of the push button? Could you quote any fact showing that?

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

You've made your point, but you've also shown that the scenario still has serious plot holes that it doesn't satisfactorily fill.
Hole like the "hole" you quoted above? There are holes but what are the holes?

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

As for the last two messages, it's clear from the context that they relate to two conditions that didn't apply to the mages closing the School: the party not knowing exactly what all the machinery does, and the defenses having failed over time after the School was closed.
Really? For me the hole is that the party could make the second guess. The first guest is coming from another part I didn't quoted here. I quote it:

It says "Activate Purification Process. Danger - Safety Off" Next to the light is a tiny switch. You could push the switch. However, you're a tiny bit nervous about the whole Safety thing.

At the reverse, I don't see any evidence that those assessment wasn't valid in the past. Saying the reverse is only pure guess based on no quoted fact. Or can you quote any?
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #103
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

But let's be clear here: are you saying that the scenario would not be better if Vinnia's motives were explored more thoroughly?
Vinnia motive are pretty clear for me, firstly she never new the existence of the push button, secondly she doesn't care murdering many people why she would care about a hypotetical future pollution that won't happen during her life?

Vinnia is just ambitious, avid of power and she doesn't care of human life.

No I really don't care to have that developed in the scenario. A really interesting development of that would have required much more text development than possible in this scenario.

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

If it truly is an archeological scenario, then let's do archeology! Lay pieces of evidence all over the deserted school, and let the player piece them all together! That would be really fun, I think.
I agree improving the archeological part could really improve the scenario. All the Vahnatai part should have been deeply changed, developed in a more subtil way. But I disagree that everything should be clear with 100% certitude. Anyway some holes should have been felt like why Pahlatis couldn't push the button and what was the difficulties of dialoguing with Vinnia.

There are many possibilities to improve the scenario and developing its moral is certainly not the best.

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

About your edited part: as usual, I have no idea what you're talking about. Or rather, I think I do, but it seems rather childish, and the fact that you're "joking" doesn't make it any better.
:D
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #103
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

But let's be clear here: are you saying that the scenario would not be better if Vinnia's motives were explored more thoroughly?
Vinnia motive are pretty clear for me, firstly she never new the existence of the push button, secondly she doesn't care murdering many people why she would care about a hypotetical future pollution that won't happen during her life?

Vinnia is just ambitious, avid of power and she doesn't care of human life.

No I really don't care to have that developed in the scenario. A really interesting development of that would have required much more text development than possible in this scenario.

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

If it truly is an archeological scenario, then let's do archeology! Lay pieces of evidence all over the deserted school, and let the player piece them all together! That would be really fun, I think.
I agree improving the archeological part could really improve the scenario. All the Vahnatai part should have been deeply changed, developed in a more subtil way. But I disagree that everything should be clear with 100% certitude. Anyway some holes should have been felt like why Pahlatis couldn't push the button and what was the difficulties of dialoguing with Vinnia.

There are many possibilities to improve the scenario and developing its moral is certainly not the best.

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

About your edited part: as usual, I have no idea what you're talking about. Or rather, I think I do, but it seems rather childish, and the fact that you're "joking" doesn't make it any better.
:D
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #102
About the baddie in VoDT:

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Do you ever fight Vinnia or attempt to dispose of Vinnia? No. But do you ever fight pollution or attempt to dispose of it? Yes. The term was meant in a gameplay sense, that the player spends most of the scenario trying to defeat pollution, not trying to defeat Vinnia. And heck, if anything, Vinnia and pollution are on the same side.
Is a volcano bad? Is a tempest bad? No and there's no debate about that point. For the same reason, the pollution effect isn't bad. You need get a people to get a baddies.

That's even more true because it was a 'baddie' from a moral point of view.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #102
About the baddie in VoDT:

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Do you ever fight Vinnia or attempt to dispose of Vinnia? No. But do you ever fight pollution or attempt to dispose of it? Yes. The term was meant in a gameplay sense, that the player spends most of the scenario trying to defeat pollution, not trying to defeat Vinnia. And heck, if anything, Vinnia and pollution are on the same side.
Is a volcano bad? Is a tempest bad? No and there's no debate about that point. For the same reason, the pollution effect isn't bad. You need get a people to get a baddies.

That's even more true because it was a 'baddie' from a moral point of view.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #89
I'm suprised that anybody is agree with many things I'm reading here. Ha well, I'll answer another time but before.

***** VoDT STRONG SPOIL FOLLOW *******
***** VoDT STRONG SPOIL FOLLOW *******
***** VoDT STRONG SPOIL FOLLOW *******

It's a series of quotes taken from my play of VoDT BoE.

I put in bold some parts, are you able to explain all those parts?

1 - The succession of main past events
P1: There's nothing but several rows of bare pedestals and this official looking proclamation, pinned to the wall: "BY THE ORDER OF EMPEROR STEWART, MOST HIGH RULER OF THE EMPIRE.It is now officially decreed that the School of Magery, located in Skylark Vale, cease operations immediately. The deadline for ceasing of operations is one week from receipt of this proclamation.The school is to be sealed, and all magical texts returned to Empire custody or destroyed. The School is to be permanently sealed, and all students and faculty are to return to Empire custody. Anyone interfering with the carrying out of this order will be disciplined in the most severe way. A similar fate will await those entering the School later than one week from now. That is all." The proclamation is dated 130 years ago. Emperor Stewart has been dead for a century.

P2: The shade: "The leaders of the Empire decided that magical power could only be trusted when centralized under their direct control. The research of the School of Magery was so successful that it was the first to be closed."

P3: A quick inspection reveals it to be a page from the journal of someone named Palhatis: "Curse that Vinnia! It is bad enough that we are being shut down. Must she also force us to abdicate all responsibility? I must do all I can to prevent the disaster I expect. If she finds out, though ..."

P4: Palhatis journal: "It is clear that she listens to the Empire and no one else. She works against us as well. I know that she speaks against me. I can hear her now. 'Palhatis schemes against us. Palhatis is a traitor. Palhatis spreads rumors.'"

P5: Palhatis journal: "I don't know what she plans against me, but my speaking out against the evacuation and what we're leaving behind have only made me enemies. I wonder what is to become of me." That's all that was written on the page.

P6: A shade: "I am a magical construct, created to deliver certain programmed messages, I was placed here by the mage Palhatis."

P7: The shade: "The School was only given one week to close. For this reason, much virulently poisonous waste was left inside. Any leaks would result in incredible destruction. This upset Palhatis, so he took steps to prevent a disaster." "Although all of the controls and devices in the School were to be deactivated, he made sure that the controls to the waste disposal unit remained. These controls might still be activated.".

P8: Wedged between to moldering tomes, you find a note, which seems to have never reached its addressee: "Pergaltho - Vinnia plans something. I know not what. She means us no good, though.""Desperate times, my friend. I have done my best in Master Control to make sure disaster can avoided. We can only hope someone makes it down there, before disaster strikes. - Palhatis."

P9: The dragon: "It is strange. Just before the humans left, a lone wizard came to me. He did me a kindness. He told me of the nature of my cell. He said his name was Palhatis, for what little that is worth. The wizard was bothered about my being left here. He said he could not free me, but could tell me how to be freed later. If someone would free me, I would reward them. I can give instructions."

P10: Someone has carelessly left a note on top of this desk. It's brittle and yellowed with age, but still readable. "It is time. Get Palhatis and Pergaltho to Visitor's Quarters. I will do the rest. - Vinnia"

P11: In Phalathis desk: You search through the ashes and find a scrap of paper which escaped the fire. it reads:"Vinnia wants to meet with us. Does not bode well. Fortunately, the tools are in place. If the disaster does occurs, it will still be possible to undo ..."

P12: Two bodies are slumped against the wall of this cavern. They must have been mages. Their traditional robes still bear not only the insignia of Empire mages, but the dark blood stains of their owners. These two were stabbed to death.They've been here for quite some time. Only bones remain, leaving you to wonder: for what offense were these two mages brought here to be murdered? - That's not necessary Palhatis and Pergaltho but that could be.

P13: The shade: "The mage Palhatis was one of the administrators for the School of Magery. When the Empire closed the School, he was murdered."

P14 - Kobolds inscription: SACRUD HISTRY OF GULZUS TRIBE IN MEMRY OF DEAD AND LOZT WE SEE BAD MAGUZ LEEV CAVES AND GO IN CAVES TO GET NEW GRATE HOME TO LIV IN!DEN WE GO IN BUT GATEZ CLOZ BEHIND US AND WE IS STUCK AND MAGES LAUGH AT US AND SAY PLACE CLOSED FOREVER AND WE STAY HERE AND LIVE AS WELL WE CAN

2 - Empire will and violence
P1, P2, P10

E1: The shade: "Many here were killed by Vinnia, on orders from the Empire, when the school was closed. It was thought that they were disloyal."

E2: You find the body of a murdered mage. She was barricaded up here behind several force barriers, and left to starve. Ugly business.

E3: Many years ago, four mages were brought into this cavern and murdered. Their multiply stabbed bodies are arrayed before you. Whoever closed the School of Magery, they wanted to close it for good.

E4: Administration level: At first, it seems that you've found areas that have been struck by the inevitable decay. This floor is in an advanced state of disrepair. The walls have collapsed, the ceiling has caved in in places, and rubble and debris are everywhere.Looking closer, however, you realize that the decay was not natural. The walls and rubble have been scorched by fire, and the structures look less like they've fallen apart and more like they were torn apart. Before the school was closed, someone went to an awful lot of effort to make sure that this level was blown to pieces.

E5: About a library: This is very interesting. This room must have contained a number of spell books. Before the School was abandoned, however, someone came here, and, with a few well placed fireballs, burned them all. Considering the amount of ash and charred paper here, it must have been quite a library. You look over the wreckage, stunned by the sheer waste of it, and can only wonder who would do such a thing.

E6: Here is yet another area that was blown up before the School was abandoned. You haven't a clue what these rooms were used for. The destroyers were thorough.

E7: You find another room which was destroyed before the School was closed. You have little doubt that plenty of invaluable magical texts were destroyed.

3 - Vinnia personality
P3, P4, P5, P8, P10, P11, P12, E1

V1: Although the desk is empty, you notice that there's a small piece of paper crumpled underneath it. It reads: "Don't forget. Caretaker key left with Provost. Healing Scepter still with Apothecary. Be sure to recover.""If only we were given more time. Vinnia will have my head if they're left. Be sure not to forget."

V2: The shade: "Vinnia was an administrator, and very loyal to the Empire."

4 - Danger of pushing the button
B1: If you don't push the button: Probably a wise move. This isn't a suicide mission.

B2: If you don't insert the crystal: For all you know, you're about to bring a river of deadly goo pouring in on you. You back away, and the hole disappears.

[ Monday, May 31, 2004 02:55: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #89
I'm suprised that anybody is agree with many things I'm reading here. Ha well, I'll answer another time but before.

***** VoDT STRONG SPOIL FOLLOW *******
***** VoDT STRONG SPOIL FOLLOW *******
***** VoDT STRONG SPOIL FOLLOW *******

It's a series of quotes taken from my play of VoDT BoE.

I put in bold some parts, are you able to explain all those parts?

1 - The succession of main past events
P1: There's nothing but several rows of bare pedestals and this official looking proclamation, pinned to the wall: "BY THE ORDER OF EMPEROR STEWART, MOST HIGH RULER OF THE EMPIRE.It is now officially decreed that the School of Magery, located in Skylark Vale, cease operations immediately. The deadline for ceasing of operations is one week from receipt of this proclamation.The school is to be sealed, and all magical texts returned to Empire custody or destroyed. The School is to be permanently sealed, and all students and faculty are to return to Empire custody. Anyone interfering with the carrying out of this order will be disciplined in the most severe way. A similar fate will await those entering the School later than one week from now. That is all." The proclamation is dated 130 years ago. Emperor Stewart has been dead for a century.

P2: The shade: "The leaders of the Empire decided that magical power could only be trusted when centralized under their direct control. The research of the School of Magery was so successful that it was the first to be closed."

P3: A quick inspection reveals it to be a page from the journal of someone named Palhatis: "Curse that Vinnia! It is bad enough that we are being shut down. Must she also force us to abdicate all responsibility? I must do all I can to prevent the disaster I expect. If she finds out, though ..."

P4: Palhatis journal: "It is clear that she listens to the Empire and no one else. She works against us as well. I know that she speaks against me. I can hear her now. 'Palhatis schemes against us. Palhatis is a traitor. Palhatis spreads rumors.'"

P5: Palhatis journal: "I don't know what she plans against me, but my speaking out against the evacuation and what we're leaving behind have only made me enemies. I wonder what is to become of me." That's all that was written on the page.

P6: A shade: "I am a magical construct, created to deliver certain programmed messages, I was placed here by the mage Palhatis."

P7: The shade: "The School was only given one week to close. For this reason, much virulently poisonous waste was left inside. Any leaks would result in incredible destruction. This upset Palhatis, so he took steps to prevent a disaster." "Although all of the controls and devices in the School were to be deactivated, he made sure that the controls to the waste disposal unit remained. These controls might still be activated.".

P8: Wedged between to moldering tomes, you find a note, which seems to have never reached its addressee: "Pergaltho - Vinnia plans something. I know not what. She means us no good, though.""Desperate times, my friend. I have done my best in Master Control to make sure disaster can avoided. We can only hope someone makes it down there, before disaster strikes. - Palhatis."

P9: The dragon: "It is strange. Just before the humans left, a lone wizard came to me. He did me a kindness. He told me of the nature of my cell. He said his name was Palhatis, for what little that is worth. The wizard was bothered about my being left here. He said he could not free me, but could tell me how to be freed later. If someone would free me, I would reward them. I can give instructions."

P10: Someone has carelessly left a note on top of this desk. It's brittle and yellowed with age, but still readable. "It is time. Get Palhatis and Pergaltho to Visitor's Quarters. I will do the rest. - Vinnia"

P11: In Phalathis desk: You search through the ashes and find a scrap of paper which escaped the fire. it reads:"Vinnia wants to meet with us. Does not bode well. Fortunately, the tools are in place. If the disaster does occurs, it will still be possible to undo ..."

P12: Two bodies are slumped against the wall of this cavern. They must have been mages. Their traditional robes still bear not only the insignia of Empire mages, but the dark blood stains of their owners. These two were stabbed to death.They've been here for quite some time. Only bones remain, leaving you to wonder: for what offense were these two mages brought here to be murdered? - That's not necessary Palhatis and Pergaltho but that could be.

P13: The shade: "The mage Palhatis was one of the administrators for the School of Magery. When the Empire closed the School, he was murdered."

P14 - Kobolds inscription: SACRUD HISTRY OF GULZUS TRIBE IN MEMRY OF DEAD AND LOZT WE SEE BAD MAGUZ LEEV CAVES AND GO IN CAVES TO GET NEW GRATE HOME TO LIV IN!DEN WE GO IN BUT GATEZ CLOZ BEHIND US AND WE IS STUCK AND MAGES LAUGH AT US AND SAY PLACE CLOSED FOREVER AND WE STAY HERE AND LIVE AS WELL WE CAN

2 - Empire will and violence
P1, P2, P10

E1: The shade: "Many here were killed by Vinnia, on orders from the Empire, when the school was closed. It was thought that they were disloyal."

E2: You find the body of a murdered mage. She was barricaded up here behind several force barriers, and left to starve. Ugly business.

E3: Many years ago, four mages were brought into this cavern and murdered. Their multiply stabbed bodies are arrayed before you. Whoever closed the School of Magery, they wanted to close it for good.

E4: Administration level: At first, it seems that you've found areas that have been struck by the inevitable decay. This floor is in an advanced state of disrepair. The walls have collapsed, the ceiling has caved in in places, and rubble and debris are everywhere.Looking closer, however, you realize that the decay was not natural. The walls and rubble have been scorched by fire, and the structures look less like they've fallen apart and more like they were torn apart. Before the school was closed, someone went to an awful lot of effort to make sure that this level was blown to pieces.

E5: About a library: This is very interesting. This room must have contained a number of spell books. Before the School was abandoned, however, someone came here, and, with a few well placed fireballs, burned them all. Considering the amount of ash and charred paper here, it must have been quite a library. You look over the wreckage, stunned by the sheer waste of it, and can only wonder who would do such a thing.

E6: Here is yet another area that was blown up before the School was abandoned. You haven't a clue what these rooms were used for. The destroyers were thorough.

E7: You find another room which was destroyed before the School was closed. You have little doubt that plenty of invaluable magical texts were destroyed.

3 - Vinnia personality
P3, P4, P5, P8, P10, P11, P12, E1

V1: Although the desk is empty, you notice that there's a small piece of paper crumpled underneath it. It reads: "Don't forget. Caretaker key left with Provost. Healing Scepter still with Apothecary. Be sure to recover.""If only we were given more time. Vinnia will have my head if they're left. Be sure not to forget."

V2: The shade: "Vinnia was an administrator, and very loyal to the Empire."

4 - Danger of pushing the button
B1: If you don't push the button: Probably a wise move. This isn't a suicide mission.

B2: If you don't insert the crystal: For all you know, you're about to bring a river of deadly goo pouring in on you. You back away, and the hole disappears.

[ Monday, May 31, 2004 02:55: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #86
Ho man I was kidding, well I forgot the smiley but I believed the kidding was very clear.

Also, common you was kidding me when you supposed I didn't read your post. Or that was a provoke? :rolleyes:

Ok I removed the kidding part.

EDIT: Well afterall if just a kidding give me the win, that's not that bad! :D

I WIN, I WIN, I WIN! :P

[ Sunday, May 30, 2004 21:36: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #86
Ho man I was kidding, well I forgot the smiley but I believed the kidding was very clear.

Also, common you was kidding me when you supposed I didn't read your post. Or that was a provoke? :rolleyes:

Ok I removed the kidding part.

EDIT: Well afterall if just a kidding give me the win, that's not that bad! :D

I WIN, I WIN, I WIN! :P

[ Sunday, May 30, 2004 21:36: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #84
I believed I had finished with one but the curse continue! :P

1 - Dates
About your source for the date, common, yes I read your post but I just saw a technical reference, I don't call that a story reference. I just wanted the quote and when it happens. Are you sure it can happens and that it's not a lost text?

2 - 'Baddie' but on a moral point of view
The 'baddie' was from a morale point of view and can't be the pollution effect from any point of view you look at it. It's Vinnia and eventually the Empire.

3 - Hole in the past story and moral
I'm not sure to have understand your part about the archeological point of view. If it's about having an unclear moral on this part of the scenario because of a hole in the story, I think this is wrong.

If there's a moral there, it is tiny and it's only around Vinnia and the Empire, not at all around Palhatis. There are plenty clues about that. The main hole in this part of the scenario is why Palhatis hadn't push the button after to have set up the clean up mechanism. But there are no big hole around Vinnia and the Empire.

Trying to search any moral reason that explains why Palhatis hadn't made it, makes no sense for me because the moral is centered around Vinnia and the Empire. Additionaly, I don't see any moral reason explaining why he didn't push the button. Furthermore he is obviously good and there's not a single clue showing him tortured by his own decision to not doing it.

I don't say that the scenario give any direct clue about that, but I can imagine plenty reason not linked with moral:

Firslty, you should quote that there's no urge to do the clean up. So there was no reason to sacrify any live. Palhatis could hardly predict his own murder and when he realized that, it was too late.

You should quote that Palhatis did plenty things during less than one week. At first he tried to struggle against the closing of the school and then he tried to warn the empire about the future pollution problem. That phase certainly take few days. Then he build a clean up solution. He informed the dragon. He build a shade. And finally he get killed by Vinnia before the school was closed so before the end of the week.

You should also quote that during this week, the empire obviously get brutal control of the school, burning places, murdering people. As Palhatis had lost any confidence from the empire, he most certainly had limited action in the school.

So some possibilities linked with indirect clues:
- Palhatis lost all responsibilities at the very beginning (strong clue about that) and before to have set up the clean up solution. So he could not have been able to go in the waste area anymore and after get killed before to set up a solution for that.
- Suicide/teleport problem. If teleport was that easy to build in less than a week, there would have many teleport in the school. He hadn't enough time to build one and pushing the button was a suicide.
- There could have been guards there, firstly going there could have been difficult during the evacuation, secondly triggering a brutal reaction could have cause useless death of all people still in the school or at least guards near to the waste.

4 - VoDT and moral
When you wrote: "If VoDT has anything to say about pollution (which I still don't really think that it does, but let's just assume)" then I agree with you. And that's all where I was turning the debate after to have play deeply the BoE version: Why reproaching it its moral treatment when this scenario doesn't have a real moral contents?

That said, if as you suggest, we assume that the scenario is developing a moral, despite it's not the case, then I agree, it would be much better that the pollution should have been technically much more contemporary and the archeological point of view should has been changed in order to get a detailed moral development... if the scenario had choose that way.

My problem is that the scenario hasn't those choices, isn't wrong to not make them and then is a wrong example for this article, ASR would have been a much better example for that subject.

[ Sunday, May 30, 2004 21:32: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #84
I believed I had finished with one but the curse continue! :P

1 - Dates
About your source for the date, common, yes I read your post but I just saw a technical reference, I don't call that a story reference. I just wanted the quote and when it happens. Are you sure it can happens and that it's not a lost text?

2 - 'Baddie' but on a moral point of view
The 'baddie' was from a morale point of view and can't be the pollution effect from any point of view you look at it. It's Vinnia and eventually the Empire.

3 - Hole in the past story and moral
I'm not sure to have understand your part about the archeological point of view. If it's about having an unclear moral on this part of the scenario because of a hole in the story, I think this is wrong.

If there's a moral there, it is tiny and it's only around Vinnia and the Empire, not at all around Palhatis. There are plenty clues about that. The main hole in this part of the scenario is why Palhatis hadn't push the button after to have set up the clean up mechanism. But there are no big hole around Vinnia and the Empire.

Trying to search any moral reason that explains why Palhatis hadn't made it, makes no sense for me because the moral is centered around Vinnia and the Empire. Additionaly, I don't see any moral reason explaining why he didn't push the button. Furthermore he is obviously good and there's not a single clue showing him tortured by his own decision to not doing it.

I don't say that the scenario give any direct clue about that, but I can imagine plenty reason not linked with moral:

Firslty, you should quote that there's no urge to do the clean up. So there was no reason to sacrify any live. Palhatis could hardly predict his own murder and when he realized that, it was too late.

You should quote that Palhatis did plenty things during less than one week. At first he tried to struggle against the closing of the school and then he tried to warn the empire about the future pollution problem. That phase certainly take few days. Then he build a clean up solution. He informed the dragon. He build a shade. And finally he get killed by Vinnia before the school was closed so before the end of the week.

You should also quote that during this week, the empire obviously get brutal control of the school, burning places, murdering people. As Palhatis had lost any confidence from the empire, he most certainly had limited action in the school.

So some possibilities linked with indirect clues:
- Palhatis lost all responsibilities at the very beginning (strong clue about that) and before to have set up the clean up solution. So he could not have been able to go in the waste area anymore and after get killed before to set up a solution for that.
- Suicide/teleport problem. If teleport was that easy to build in less than a week, there would have many teleport in the school. He hadn't enough time to build one and pushing the button was a suicide.
- There could have been guards there, firstly going there could have been difficult during the evacuation, secondly triggering a brutal reaction could have cause useless death of all people still in the school or at least guards near to the waste.

4 - VoDT and moral
When you wrote: "If VoDT has anything to say about pollution (which I still don't really think that it does, but let's just assume)" then I agree with you. And that's all where I was turning the debate after to have play deeply the BoE version: Why reproaching it its moral treatment when this scenario doesn't have a real moral contents?

That said, if as you suggest, we assume that the scenario is developing a moral, despite it's not the case, then I agree, it would be much better that the pollution should have been technically much more contemporary and the archeological point of view should has been changed in order to get a detailed moral development... if the scenario had choose that way.

My problem is that the scenario hasn't those choices, isn't wrong to not make them and then is a wrong example for this article, ASR would have been a much better example for that subject.

[ Sunday, May 30, 2004 21:32: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #79
1 - Clan word
About clan word, ef explained it right, appart that I'm also really uninterested by a clan post just because experience shows that 99% of the time they don't bring anything to a debate. That said:
1 - There's nothing wrong in a clan post, it's normal human behavior with good aspects.
2 - I saw only his first post as a clan post and in fact only in its first part, I didn't read further before.

2 - Art vs Entertainment and Moral
About art vs entertainment, I agree with Qalnor, there's no real links. But there's a link between the two because the capitalism model gradually made evolves art quality on economical criteria. For most type of art, the link of the art with the economical criteria is the entertainment value , that makes the aparent link bewteen art and entertainment.

Moreover, mentality are evolving. Many people that will be agree about the difference between art quality and art economical value could have sometimes a first reaction that show the reverse, I constantly see that at TV cultural shows, something that still exists in my country. ;)

About moral and art, I don't see more links. My first reaction would be, how about the music? It can be art without any moral. For movies, novels, cartoons, scenario or even games, they all create (or could in case of games) stories. Is that make quite a difference with music? Certainly, but that would be a dogmatic point of view to require a moral in any story that is art.

This leads me back to the VoDT example in the article.

3 - Moral in VoDT
quote:
Originally written by The Creator:

In VoDT, Jeff made a decision that pollution would be the 'baddie'.
No, if there's a the 'baddie', it's Vinnia and the scenario is very clear about that. That pollution effects are bad don't make the pollution a "baddie" on a moral point of view.
quote:
Basically, I'm saying that Jeff's mistake wasn't so much that he presented a shallow view of the pollution issue, but that he included it at all.
This is an extreme advice I disagree with. Jeff has any rights and particularely not giving any clear moral messages, lessons or thinking material. He is not wrong to use pollution effects in his scenario and not cover at all the pollution moral subject with a modern point of view. You demonstrate that this is a wrong choice through this sentence:
quote:
When done badly, you'll get reviews complaining about Big Important Ideas and that the scenario has a Point To Make. No one enjoys a lecture.
I can't agree at least from a player point of view. I strongly enjoyed this scenario and I never wanted that Jeff give me more morale stuff about pollution.

Furthermore, there's a strong doubt on the reason that some people didn't like some aspects of the scenario. Did they really get disturbed by a lack of moral development or did they get disturbed by an archeological approach of the story that hapened 130 years ago?

4 - Archeological point of view
I'd like that those who, unlike me, get disturbed by this pollution subject, forget it one minute and look at the scenario with a different point of view.

One secondary but very important element of the scenario is that beside the main story, the adventurers could find many clues about the story that happened about 130 years ago (about 130 years is the safer guess). This subject is secondary but in term of scenario fun I think it is primary.

It gives to this scenario a lot of its mystery. In fact, at the end, this old story keeps some mystery. Is that a wrong choice or not is a difficult debate. Like an archeological approach, we end to not get 100% of the clues that explain 100% of the details with a 100% certitude. I'm not sure that this is that wrong.

That's my first feeling and strong disagreement about comments on this scenario. I strongly suspect that some people get disturbed, not by not having a fully explored morale subject, but by not having at the end of the scenario 100% of the past story with a 100% certitude.

Perhaps Jeff was stupid enough to not see the holes in this part of the scenario. But the holes are so basic that I'm not sure it's the good guess. Furthermore, there are some details that show that it's a better bet to think it as a deliberate choice. At what date happened the past events? We get at least four different dates (I count one I never found when playing the BoE scenario, but quoted by Kelandon). Almost 100 years for many people living in the valley, more than 100 years but less than 127 years for a dragon, about 130 years for a dated Empire order, 80 years for a source Kelandon didn't explained. I see it not as a Jeff stupidity proof but as a part of creating an "Archeological" approach.

Not having 100% of the details with a 100% certitude isn't bad for me. Keeping a part of the mystery is building an "archeology" atmosphere for this part of the scenario. Objectively it's not that bad to let player imagination running freely.

That approach is certainly one step further in comparison of giving full explanation of the old story. That doesn't make it bad. Am I alone to have seen this part of the scenario like that? I doubt.

5 - Moral development holes or story holes?
quote:
If you're going to address an issue, you need to address it properly and fully. Throwing in a moral without exploring the issue properly is asking for trouble.

No, this scenario use the pollution effects but doesn't make any moral about it, it's hard to make moral about bad effects. They are bad, that's all, there is no moral in that. 130 years ago that's something else but this collide with the archeological approach I explained above.

That's my second problem, as I explain above, the archeological approach ends to an explanation of the old story that has unexplained parts. There are two points. No it's not better to develop in any scenario a complex grey moral. No it's not a hole in moral treatment, it's a hole in story and not necessary a wrong thing as I explained about the archeological approach.

What surprise me is that "nobody" complain about the holes in the story but see them only as lack of moral development. Only because of the archeological approach in this part of the scenario, it is a wrong example to use it in an article about moral.

Worse is that holes in moral development are also holes in the old story, that involves confusion about what is the real problem on this aspect for some people. That's a second reason that makes this scenario a wrong example in an article about moral.

To anticipate answers already answered, no, a story can be coherent and good without to have a sophisticated moral development. What could have been the (fully explained) old story is for me a typical example. The story hole about the push button prepared in secret but not used by the 2 good mages has nothing to do with a grey moral development. That's still a hole in a story 100% explained.
The reason that Vinnia didn't used the push button has a strong clue, she just never knew anything about that.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #79
1 - Clan word
About clan word, ef explained it right, appart that I'm also really uninterested by a clan post just because experience shows that 99% of the time they don't bring anything to a debate. That said:
1 - There's nothing wrong in a clan post, it's normal human behavior with good aspects.
2 - I saw only his first post as a clan post and in fact only in its first part, I didn't read further before.

2 - Art vs Entertainment and Moral
About art vs entertainment, I agree with Qalnor, there's no real links. But there's a link between the two because the capitalism model gradually made evolves art quality on economical criteria. For most type of art, the link of the art with the economical criteria is the entertainment value , that makes the aparent link bewteen art and entertainment.

Moreover, mentality are evolving. Many people that will be agree about the difference between art quality and art economical value could have sometimes a first reaction that show the reverse, I constantly see that at TV cultural shows, something that still exists in my country. ;)

About moral and art, I don't see more links. My first reaction would be, how about the music? It can be art without any moral. For movies, novels, cartoons, scenario or even games, they all create (or could in case of games) stories. Is that make quite a difference with music? Certainly, but that would be a dogmatic point of view to require a moral in any story that is art.

This leads me back to the VoDT example in the article.

3 - Moral in VoDT
quote:
Originally written by The Creator:

In VoDT, Jeff made a decision that pollution would be the 'baddie'.
No, if there's a the 'baddie', it's Vinnia and the scenario is very clear about that. That pollution effects are bad don't make the pollution a "baddie" on a moral point of view.
quote:
Basically, I'm saying that Jeff's mistake wasn't so much that he presented a shallow view of the pollution issue, but that he included it at all.
This is an extreme advice I disagree with. Jeff has any rights and particularely not giving any clear moral messages, lessons or thinking material. He is not wrong to use pollution effects in his scenario and not cover at all the pollution moral subject with a modern point of view. You demonstrate that this is a wrong choice through this sentence:
quote:
When done badly, you'll get reviews complaining about Big Important Ideas and that the scenario has a Point To Make. No one enjoys a lecture.
I can't agree at least from a player point of view. I strongly enjoyed this scenario and I never wanted that Jeff give me more morale stuff about pollution.

Furthermore, there's a strong doubt on the reason that some people didn't like some aspects of the scenario. Did they really get disturbed by a lack of moral development or did they get disturbed by an archeological approach of the story that hapened 130 years ago?

4 - Archeological point of view
I'd like that those who, unlike me, get disturbed by this pollution subject, forget it one minute and look at the scenario with a different point of view.

One secondary but very important element of the scenario is that beside the main story, the adventurers could find many clues about the story that happened about 130 years ago (about 130 years is the safer guess). This subject is secondary but in term of scenario fun I think it is primary.

It gives to this scenario a lot of its mystery. In fact, at the end, this old story keeps some mystery. Is that a wrong choice or not is a difficult debate. Like an archeological approach, we end to not get 100% of the clues that explain 100% of the details with a 100% certitude. I'm not sure that this is that wrong.

That's my first feeling and strong disagreement about comments on this scenario. I strongly suspect that some people get disturbed, not by not having a fully explored morale subject, but by not having at the end of the scenario 100% of the past story with a 100% certitude.

Perhaps Jeff was stupid enough to not see the holes in this part of the scenario. But the holes are so basic that I'm not sure it's the good guess. Furthermore, there are some details that show that it's a better bet to think it as a deliberate choice. At what date happened the past events? We get at least four different dates (I count one I never found when playing the BoE scenario, but quoted by Kelandon). Almost 100 years for many people living in the valley, more than 100 years but less than 127 years for a dragon, about 130 years for a dated Empire order, 80 years for a source Kelandon didn't explained. I see it not as a Jeff stupidity proof but as a part of creating an "Archeological" approach.

Not having 100% of the details with a 100% certitude isn't bad for me. Keeping a part of the mystery is building an "archeology" atmosphere for this part of the scenario. Objectively it's not that bad to let player imagination running freely.

That approach is certainly one step further in comparison of giving full explanation of the old story. That doesn't make it bad. Am I alone to have seen this part of the scenario like that? I doubt.

5 - Moral development holes or story holes?
quote:
If you're going to address an issue, you need to address it properly and fully. Throwing in a moral without exploring the issue properly is asking for trouble.

No, this scenario use the pollution effects but doesn't make any moral about it, it's hard to make moral about bad effects. They are bad, that's all, there is no moral in that. 130 years ago that's something else but this collide with the archeological approach I explained above.

That's my second problem, as I explain above, the archeological approach ends to an explanation of the old story that has unexplained parts. There are two points. No it's not better to develop in any scenario a complex grey moral. No it's not a hole in moral treatment, it's a hole in story and not necessary a wrong thing as I explained about the archeological approach.

What surprise me is that "nobody" complain about the holes in the story but see them only as lack of moral development. Only because of the archeological approach in this part of the scenario, it is a wrong example to use it in an article about moral.

Worse is that holes in moral development are also holes in the old story, that involves confusion about what is the real problem on this aspect for some people. That's a second reason that makes this scenario a wrong example in an article about moral.

To anticipate answers already answered, no, a story can be coherent and good without to have a sophisticated moral development. What could have been the (fully explained) old story is for me a typical example. The story hole about the push button prepared in secret but not used by the 2 good mages has nothing to do with a grey moral development. That's still a hole in a story 100% explained.
The reason that Vinnia didn't used the push button has a strong clue, she just never knew anything about that.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #66
:D clan is a worse insult than jerk, lol english is a strange language!

You are taking that too seriously, a lot.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #66
:D clan is a worse insult than jerk, lol english is a strange language!

You are taking that too seriously, a lot.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Weird archery bug! in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #8
So since 1.0.1 Archer bacame as useless than they are in BoE? Bad news.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
A game programmer's point of view in Blades of Avernum Editor
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #40
Sure Kelodon you're 100% right, you know the coding without to have see any code line. :D

All my posts about that was hypothesis in order to give some example that could explain why BoE had cost so much effort.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
A game programmer's point of view in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #40
Sure Kelodon you're 100% right, you know the coding without to have see any code line. :D

All my posts about that was hypothesis in order to give some example that could explain why BoE had cost so much effort.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #63
Jobs plus playing more VoDT BoE before detail it retrain me from coming here, that wasn't that bad! :D

Kelando reactions became too much personnal , at this point it's useless to debate of anything with him, he just hate me, ok no debate and I'll survive. :P

Kyna, your post and late coming in the debate are typical clan attitude that don't worth any answer because 99% it's useless stuff that are mainly uninteresting clan reactions. Think a bout that a little.

I'll answer anyway to your last post because afterall beside saying people can't be wrong because they are clever, it has some interesting subsdiary points.

-------------------------------------------------
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #63
Jobs plus playing more VoDT BoE before detail it retrain me from coming here, that wasn't that bad! :D

Kelando reactions became too much personnal , at this point it's useless to debate of anything with him, he just hate me, ok no debate and I'll survive. :P

Kyna, your post and late coming in the debate are typical clan attitude that don't worth any answer because 99% it's useless stuff that are mainly uninteresting clan reactions. Think a bout that a little.

I'll answer anyway to your last post because afterall beside saying people can't be wrong because they are clever, it has some interesting subsdiary points.

-------------------------------------------------
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00

Pages