Article - The Moral of the Story

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AuthorTopic: Article - The Moral of the Story
BoE Posse
Member # 112
Profile #101
Kel - So, NK:0 was yours? I liked that one.

Qalnor - There are many ways to interpret things, including both scenarios and articles. You don't see VoDT as preachy, though some do. Which of these interpretations is correct? Or are both valid? Who knows? Who really cares?

There also seems to be many ways to interpret the article I wrote, though I only meant for there to be one. This is NOT an article about VoDT being preachy, or at least it is not meant as one. Rather, it accuses VoDT of shallowness. It's not my view that the scenario bashes you over the head with "Pollution is bad! Pollution is Bad! Pollution is bad! Pollution is Bad!", but that it says it once... and then completely ignores the issues attached to that.

VoDT takes a modern issue and places it in a setting where it doesn't really belong, and then does nothing with that issue. Suppose you played a scenario where your country had been ruled by an evil dictator, but you were invaded by a great empire who deposed him, claiming that you possessed great artifacts of evil magic that could wreak havoc on the world. You play a guerilla trying to drive your occupiers out.

Loaded situation. Now, what if that scenario made nothing of the possibilities of devastating anarchy once your occupiers are gone, or of another dictator taking power? What if it never addresses the issue that the men you kill came to help free you? What if it's just a basic hack 'em up?

That scenario may not be 'preachy', but it would be a very shallow treatment of a very complicated issue. That's how I interpret VoDT.

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Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #102
About the baddie in VoDT:

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Do you ever fight Vinnia or attempt to dispose of Vinnia? No. But do you ever fight pollution or attempt to dispose of it? Yes. The term was meant in a gameplay sense, that the player spends most of the scenario trying to defeat pollution, not trying to defeat Vinnia. And heck, if anything, Vinnia and pollution are on the same side.
Is a volcano bad? Is a tempest bad? No and there's no debate about that point. For the same reason, the pollution effect isn't bad. You need get a people to get a baddies.

That's even more true because it was a 'baddie' from a moral point of view.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #103
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

But let's be clear here: are you saying that the scenario would not be better if Vinnia's motives were explored more thoroughly?
Vinnia motive are pretty clear for me, firstly she never new the existence of the push button, secondly she doesn't care murdering many people why she would care about a hypotetical future pollution that won't happen during her life?

Vinnia is just ambitious, avid of power and she doesn't care of human life.

No I really don't care to have that developed in the scenario. A really interesting development of that would have required much more text development than possible in this scenario.

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

If it truly is an archeological scenario, then let's do archeology! Lay pieces of evidence all over the deserted school, and let the player piece them all together! That would be really fun, I think.
I agree improving the archeological part could really improve the scenario. All the Vahnatai part should have been deeply changed, developed in a more subtil way. But I disagree that everything should be clear with 100% certitude. Anyway some holes should have been felt like why Pahlatis couldn't push the button and what was the difficulties of dialoguing with Vinnia.

There are many possibilities to improve the scenario and developing its moral is certainly not the best.

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

About your edited part: as usual, I have no idea what you're talking about. Or rather, I think I do, but it seems rather childish, and the fact that you're "joking" doesn't make it any better.
:D
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Warrior
Member # 4186
Profile #104
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

Funny how they had the time to destroy an entire floor of the School, but not to press a button, isn't it?
Do you think that the people that destroyed the school knew the existence of the push button? Could you quote any fact showing that?

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

You've made your point, but you've also shown that the scenario still has serious plot holes that it doesn't satisfactorily fill.
Hole like the "hole" you quoted above? There are holes but what are the holes?

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

As for the last two messages, it's clear from the context that they relate to two conditions that didn't apply to the mages closing the School: the party not knowing exactly what all the machinery does, and the defenses having failed over time after the School was closed.
Really? For me the hole is that the party could make the second guess. The first guest is coming from another part I didn't quoted here. I quote it:

It says "Activate Purification Process. Danger - Safety Off" Next to the light is a tiny switch. You could push the switch. However, you're a tiny bit nervous about the whole Safety thing.

At the reverse, I don't see any evidence that those assessment wasn't valid in the past. Saying the reverse is only pure guess based on no quoted fact. Or can you quote any?
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #105
quote:
I disagree that everything should be clear with 100% certitude.
Then, happily, it's not me that you're disagreeing with. :) I don't think this is necessary either. I do wish that it could be developed more, but not necessarily completely.

Amazingly enough, I agree with almost everything that Vent's previous post said. I still reserve a few points of disagreement, but I think they're minor enough I'm not going to enumerate them.

Yeah, Creator, that scen was mine. I'd been debating whether to claim it or not -- I remember it being terrible, despite the kind comments that I've received about it -- but I've decided that I will. It'll be on my website by the end of today. (And my website will be in my sig.)

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Warrior
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Profile #106
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

It convinces me that this was, in fact, the reason in the designer's mind that the School wasn't closed. It still doesn't cohere with the rest of the story, but this was Jeff's reason.
There are in fact few clues about that possibility but no evidence. BUT the clues or hints are so minor that I doubt that it's a valid assessment.
quote:
Palhatis had time to MAKE AN INTELLIGENT SHADE AND STICK HIM IN THE CONTROL AREA, but he didn't have time to PRESS A BUTTON.

I think that it's not right, you are doing the same error than Thuryl: You are doing an interpration of more than there is in the text and you accuse your interpretation to not be coherent. In fact it just proves your interpretation is wrong.

A first interpretation you are doing is that he didn't press the button because of time reason. Wrong, there's no evidence that time is the cause.

Secondly, there's no evidence that this construct has been build for this occasion. Furthermore there are evidence that there's most chance it wasn't build for this occasion, another quote:
Research done in the school: "Magical thinking devices. This is irrelevant to my message."

quote:
And Thuryl's point is correct: pressing the button did NOT release some unknown danger. The mages were familiar with the cleanup system, because THEY BUILT IT.
Again, I don't agree, there are evidence they had no clean-up mechanism ready and that Pahlatis build one during the last week.

quote:
And moreover, the statement, "he made sure that the controls to the waste disposal unit remained. These controls might still be activated," indicates that Palhatis specifically knew what the controls did.
I agree, and as he build up the cleaning solution during the last week, we could hope he knew how use it.

quote:
I've been thinking, "This is all very interesting, but there is much more to this story." Palhatis's statement, "my speaking out against the evacuation and what we're leaving behind have only made me enemies," seems to indicate that Vinnia hates him and eventually murders him primarily because he wants to clean up the waste.
I disagree, when this was written by Palhatis he hadn't setup yet a cleanup solution. So "because he wants to clean up the waste" is wrong.
quote:
Palhatis had time to make an entire covert setup for someone else to come along and push a couple of buttons and clean up all of the waste, but there was so little time before the school closed that cleaning up the waste would delay the closing of the school and therefore anger the Empire. This doesn't make sense.
I agree, there's a strong hole here but I disagree that "it doesn't make sense". From the archeological point of view, there is a lack of clues to make an interpretation about this point. There's still a place forme some supposition that are neither complicate nor silly. So it's just a hole, nothing else.
quote:
Yes, one can make up explanations that turn all of this into reasonable plot material. But a true archeological scenario would not require the player to invent explanations to fill plot holes. The story of what had happened before would become central to gameplay.
I disagree, archeology is strongly based on inventing explanation, you never get 100% clear and certain conclusions.

That said, some hole should have been fill, at least partialy.
quote:
Having said all of this, I still like VoDT. I don't think these points are critical to the enjoyment of the scenario. I just think it could've been better if more was done with this.
I agree... and for my taste, that's a better way of improvement than developing the moral here. For a better moral development, the scenario should have been totally different in my opinion, at least in order to prevade a good fun.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
BANNED
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WHY

DOES

THIS

TOPIC

LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVE

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Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 20
Profile #108
Well apart from your post (and now mine) it's been dead for 5 hours.. and perhaps it intends to remain so. It's not beyond ressurection, but it's beyond the desires of most people to perform such a ressurection.

But to answer your real question, the reason it lived as long as it did was because the argument heated up and once an argument heats nobody is content to say anything once, everything needs to be said until everyone is tired of saying what they insist upon saying over and over again and they are, furthermore, frustrated beyond wits end that everyone else seems to be doing the same, having not heard a bit of what they keep repeating.
Posts: 191 | Registered: Monday, October 1 2001 07:00
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Member # 67
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The next long angry rant that gets posted here will result in the topic being locked.

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Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #110
Why? The topic is perfectly fine.

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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
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Because he has half an excuse is why. :P

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