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Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Monday, May 24 2004 07:29 Profile #59
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

If one of the notes from Vinnia said something like, "We must hurry. The school's closing must not be delayed" or something like that, then I'd say that your point is completely valid.
So my point is completely valid thanks to agree with that. A note you can found:
Don't forget. Caretaker key left with Provost. Healing Scepter still with Apothecary. Be sure to recover. If only we were given more time. Vinnia will have my head if they're left. Be sure not to forget.

That note shows the urgency, if that doesn't refer to both school closing and Vannia, well I could nothing for you.

Kyna, is that and all quotes I did, just a dream? You are speaking about facts but I saw nothing in your post.

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

The moral should make sense within the context of the scenario. If the scenario's plot doesn't make sense, then the moral is inevitably incoherent as well.
:D Nice joke.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Monday, May 24 2004 07:29 Profile #59
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

If one of the notes from Vinnia said something like, "We must hurry. The school's closing must not be delayed" or something like that, then I'd say that your point is completely valid.
So my point is completely valid thanks to agree with that. A note you can found:
Don't forget. Caretaker key left with Provost. Healing Scepter still with Apothecary. Be sure to recover. If only we were given more time. Vinnia will have my head if they're left. Be sure not to forget.

That note shows the urgency, if that doesn't refer to both school closing and Vannia, well I could nothing for you.

Kyna, is that and all quotes I did, just a dream? You are speaking about facts but I saw nothing in your post.

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

The moral should make sense within the context of the scenario. If the scenario's plot doesn't make sense, then the moral is inevitably incoherent as well.
:D Nice joke.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 22:33 Profile #55
Thuryl, it's not the moral that doesn't make sense on this point, it's the scenario.

Don't you see that point?

In fact you are giving too much credit to it by supposing there's in fact a morale explanation.

Can't you imagine another explanation? As a technical problem? Until the school isn't empty he can't do it. Then no time to do something at a point and later he is dead. I don't say it's the explanation but just that this aparent scenario incoherence has no link to moral.

[ Sunday, May 23, 2004 22:37: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 22:33 Profile #55
Thuryl, it's not the moral that doesn't make sense on this point, it's the scenario.

Don't you see that point?

In fact you are giving too much credit to it by supposing there's in fact a morale explanation.

Can't you imagine another explanation? As a technical problem? Until the school isn't empty he can't do it. Then no time to do something at a point and later he is dead. I don't say it's the explanation but just that this aparent scenario incoherence has no link to moral.

[ Sunday, May 23, 2004 22:37: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 22:28 Profile #53
Ok, I don't have a lot to add than I already mentionned. But about point 5 as you want more explanation:

Vannia used the opportunity to discredit the two other mages. Is she succeed she will discard two concurents, so more power instead to share it with the two other mages.

Furthermore she used the oportunity to please to the Emperor. He doesn't care about future pollution that will happen when he will be dead. He just want to hear that the school is closed ASAP as he asked.

She hides the problem because not doing so was to admit that the school should not be closed or at least that its closing had to be delayed. This could have unpleased to the emperor and furthermore she would have lost an oportunity to discredit the two other mages.

If you answer me that it's not explained in the scenario, I give up.

[ Sunday, May 23, 2004 22:31: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 22:28 Profile #53
Ok, I don't have a lot to add than I already mentionned. But about point 5 as you want more explanation:

Vannia used the opportunity to discredit the two other mages. Is she succeed she will discard two concurents, so more power instead to share it with the two other mages.

Furthermore she used the oportunity to please to the Emperor. He doesn't care about future pollution that will happen when he will be dead. He just want to hear that the school is closed ASAP as he asked.

She hides the problem because not doing so was to admit that the school should not be closed or at least that its closing had to be delayed. This could have unpleased to the emperor and furthermore she would have lost an oportunity to discredit the two other mages.

If you answer me that it's not explained in the scenario, I give up.

[ Sunday, May 23, 2004 22:31: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
A game programmer's point of view in Blades of Avernum Editor
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 22:19 Profile #38
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

I think that the behavior of monsters in the Avernum Trilogy was kind of like that: they would follow one uniform set of protocols between them, but those protocols would take into account what the monster was capable of doing.

The difference between that and scripting is that scripting would allow a different set of protocols.
I just quoted your post. I'm sorry but this was a quote from you post. Ha well, apart for this point, I agree with you.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
A game programmer's point of view in Blades of Avernum
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 22:19 Profile #38
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

I think that the behavior of monsters in the Avernum Trilogy was kind of like that: they would follow one uniform set of protocols between them, but those protocols would take into account what the monster was capable of doing.

The difference between that and scripting is that scripting would allow a different set of protocols.
I just quoted your post. I'm sorry but this was a quote from you post. Ha well, apart for this point, I agree with you.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 22:12 Profile #51
Ok, I'll answer quote per quote to some points of you post.
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

quote:
Why it's in fact 80 years?
Because of the line cited above, specifically the fifth string in the dialog box from state 13 in the text file t13Libraries.txt -- only applicable in the BoA version, because the BoE version gives different dates. I think (although I haven't checked, so correct me if I'm wrong) that the others say only "about a century" or something along those lines.
Yes you are wrong, I gave you a quote and it's not even a dragon talk but a story comment so no lie. We could be both right and the scenario wrong.
[quote]
quote:
Vannia want to hide to the Empire any possible problems, particularly the future pollution problem
But why? The issue is that she doesn't have any motivation not to tell the Empire about possible problems, at least not any given in the games.
[/quote]Wrong, I gave you plenty quotes that gave good reasons of this behavior.
[quote]
And the reason that her motivation is important is this: without additional motivations, Vannia appears to choose not to clean up the pollution because she is in favor of pollution. No major point of view in real life has been pro-pollution; they've been pro-business and willing to allow some pollution in order to get their business done, or something like that.
[/quote]Yes and that exactely what I quote from the scenario, Vinnia wants more power.
[quote]
quote:
If they can hide possible long-term problems and win more money, someone will do it.
But you're assuming that they got something out of the cover-up, which VoDT never says.
[/quote]Wrong, I gave you BoE quotes.
[quote]
quote:
The TiaraLi version isn't an hypothesis for a major part.
Except for the part that I questioned, which is that time was the biggest deciding factor in why the waste mechanisms weren't activated. All I said was that we don't know why the waste mechanisms weren't activated, which is, as above, critical to the moral of the scen.
[/quote]I think it's wrong, check my explanation, just avoid a suicide and no time to build a better solution or a teleport portal.
[quote]
quote:
Furthermore, to keep working the capitalism mechanism, many of those sort of agreement need a worldwide treaty.
Now you're inserting your own views into the scenario. VoDT never mentions anything even remotely close to this. It's a related issue, but VoDT does not cover it at all.
[/quote]Lol, I agree.
[quote]
About 4: I should've said, "I don't think that's the most important part of what we're discussing here, in that no one has mentioned it yet (other than you).
[/quote]Wrong, see post I quoted.
[quote]
" It is an interesting narrative technique. It just doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about.
[/quote]Well perhaps but I think it's an important choice of the scenario that explains why the 100 years old history isn't so obvious.
[quote]
VoDT does not reflect the issue of radioactive waste at all.[/quote]Ok, I agree in part and disagree in part but I don't want to discuss about this poiint so you're right!
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 22:12 Profile #51
Ok, I'll answer quote per quote to some points of you post.
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

quote:
Why it's in fact 80 years?
Because of the line cited above, specifically the fifth string in the dialog box from state 13 in the text file t13Libraries.txt -- only applicable in the BoA version, because the BoE version gives different dates. I think (although I haven't checked, so correct me if I'm wrong) that the others say only "about a century" or something along those lines.
Yes you are wrong, I gave you a quote and it's not even a dragon talk but a story comment so no lie. We could be both right and the scenario wrong.
[quote]
quote:
Vannia want to hide to the Empire any possible problems, particularly the future pollution problem
But why? The issue is that she doesn't have any motivation not to tell the Empire about possible problems, at least not any given in the games.
[/quote]Wrong, I gave you plenty quotes that gave good reasons of this behavior.
[quote]
And the reason that her motivation is important is this: without additional motivations, Vannia appears to choose not to clean up the pollution because she is in favor of pollution. No major point of view in real life has been pro-pollution; they've been pro-business and willing to allow some pollution in order to get their business done, or something like that.
[/quote]Yes and that exactely what I quote from the scenario, Vinnia wants more power.
[quote]
quote:
If they can hide possible long-term problems and win more money, someone will do it.
But you're assuming that they got something out of the cover-up, which VoDT never says.
[/quote]Wrong, I gave you BoE quotes.
[quote]
quote:
The TiaraLi version isn't an hypothesis for a major part.
Except for the part that I questioned, which is that time was the biggest deciding factor in why the waste mechanisms weren't activated. All I said was that we don't know why the waste mechanisms weren't activated, which is, as above, critical to the moral of the scen.
[/quote]I think it's wrong, check my explanation, just avoid a suicide and no time to build a better solution or a teleport portal.
[quote]
quote:
Furthermore, to keep working the capitalism mechanism, many of those sort of agreement need a worldwide treaty.
Now you're inserting your own views into the scenario. VoDT never mentions anything even remotely close to this. It's a related issue, but VoDT does not cover it at all.
[/quote]Lol, I agree.
[quote]
About 4: I should've said, "I don't think that's the most important part of what we're discussing here, in that no one has mentioned it yet (other than you).
[/quote]Wrong, see post I quoted.
[quote]
" It is an interesting narrative technique. It just doesn't have anything to do with what we're talking about.
[/quote]Well perhaps but I think it's an important choice of the scenario that explains why the 100 years old history isn't so obvious.
[quote]
VoDT does not reflect the issue of radioactive waste at all.[/quote]Ok, I agree in part and disagree in part but I don't want to discuss about this poiint so you're right!
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 21:53 Profile #50
Well what to answer to that? I gave you plenty quotes of BoE, did I really didn't understand them? I don't think so, I could be wrong. I'll read again your previous post but I doubt I didn't undertood it.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 21:53 Profile #50
Well what to answer to that? I gave you plenty quotes of BoE, did I really didn't understand them? I don't think so, I could be wrong. I'll read again your previous post but I doubt I didn't undertood it.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
A game programmer's point of view in Blades of Avernum Editor
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 21:49 Profile #36
Ok so you don't need to define a script language to have different set of procedure for different NPC behavior. You don't even need to do different set of procedure in order to program that.

So when you wrote:

The difference between that and scripting is that scripting would allow a different set of protocols.

That's not true, Jeff and Avernum don't need script to do that, it's not linked at all to the use of scripts.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
A game programmer's point of view in Blades of Avernum
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 21:49 Profile #36
Ok so you don't need to define a script language to have different set of procedure for different NPC behavior. You don't even need to do different set of procedure in order to program that.

So when you wrote:

The difference between that and scripting is that scripting would allow a different set of protocols.

That's not true, Jeff and Avernum don't need script to do that, it's not linked at all to the use of scripts.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 21:34 Profile #48
1 - I*, thanks for the precision, I always wanted to write moral. :)

2 - Kelandon, so my explanation about the non use of the push button is ok? In fact you didn't read it, I added it in an edit.

I mention it again:

Did the mage mastered teleportation? Did they had time to set up a teleport portal? I don't think so and then pushing the button was doing a suicide. That's a good reason to not push the button when the problems aren't here and are in the long term.

3 - About the 100 years
I quote a dragon phrase:
"For over 100 years she waits after they leave". Over 100 years so I don't see how it could be 80 years appart if it's another date, the sealing date.

4 - About the importance of 100 years later quoted by nobody
Wrong at least once, read coreyh post.

5 - Why Vannia act like that?
I already explained, an oportunity to get the power for her alone and to discard the two other mages. Some quotes from the beginning of my play of the BoE version:

Vinnia plans something I dunno what, she means us no good. Desperate time my friend, I have done my best in master control to make sure disaster can avoided. We ca only hope someone makes it down here, before disaster strikes.

At this point Palathis understand nothing of Vinnia plans.

Quote also, that "makes it down here" seems to be a problem.

Later:
Curse that Vinnia! It is bad enough that we are being shut down. Must she also force us to abdicate all responsibility?

For me it's clear that vinnia wants eject the two other mages. It isn't for you?

So more:
It is clear that she listen to the Empire ad no one else. She works against us as well. I know that she speaks against me. I can hear now. 'Palathis schemes against us. Palathis is a traitor. Palathis spread rumors."

Particularely obvious, the reason, as I already wrote, just to eject two concurents and get more power.

A last quote:
I don't know what she plans against me, but my speaking our against the evecuation and what we're leaving behind have only made me enemies. I wonder what is to become of me."

Oops, all seems going wrong.

About links with nuclear waste problem, I won't discuss. I strongly doubt that all points need to be exactely the same. Anyway, You can't predict what will happen in 100 years. :D
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 21:34 Profile #48
1 - I*, thanks for the precision, I always wanted to write moral. :)

2 - Kelandon, so my explanation about the non use of the push button is ok? In fact you didn't read it, I added it in an edit.

I mention it again:

Did the mage mastered teleportation? Did they had time to set up a teleport portal? I don't think so and then pushing the button was doing a suicide. That's a good reason to not push the button when the problems aren't here and are in the long term.

3 - About the 100 years
I quote a dragon phrase:
"For over 100 years she waits after they leave". Over 100 years so I don't see how it could be 80 years appart if it's another date, the sealing date.

4 - About the importance of 100 years later quoted by nobody
Wrong at least once, read coreyh post.

5 - Why Vannia act like that?
I already explained, an oportunity to get the power for her alone and to discard the two other mages. Some quotes from the beginning of my play of the BoE version:

Vinnia plans something I dunno what, she means us no good. Desperate time my friend, I have done my best in master control to make sure disaster can avoided. We ca only hope someone makes it down here, before disaster strikes.

At this point Palathis understand nothing of Vinnia plans.

Quote also, that "makes it down here" seems to be a problem.

Later:
Curse that Vinnia! It is bad enough that we are being shut down. Must she also force us to abdicate all responsibility?

For me it's clear that vinnia wants eject the two other mages. It isn't for you?

So more:
It is clear that she listen to the Empire ad no one else. She works against us as well. I know that she speaks against me. I can hear now. 'Palathis schemes against us. Palathis is a traitor. Palathis spread rumors."

Particularely obvious, the reason, as I already wrote, just to eject two concurents and get more power.

A last quote:
I don't know what she plans against me, but my speaking our against the evecuation and what we're leaving behind have only made me enemies. I wonder what is to become of me."

Oops, all seems going wrong.

About links with nuclear waste problem, I won't discuss. I strongly doubt that all points need to be exactely the same. Anyway, You can't predict what will happen in 100 years. :D
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
A game programmer's point of view in Blades of Avernum Editor
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 21:13 Profile #34
No, you can transform all the NPC scripts in pure set of data no protocol problem here.

That said if all NPC behave in the same way, in fact that's not true, they have different behavior, then BoA improved a lot this area. This could have been done without any scripts.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
A game programmer's point of view in Blades of Avernum
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 21:13 Profile #34
No, you can transform all the NPC scripts in pure set of data no protocol problem here.

That said if all NPC behave in the same way, in fact that's not true, they have different behavior, then BoA improved a lot this area. This could have been done without any scripts.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
help with dialog in Blades of Avernum Editor
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 20:50 Profile #3
From the error message you suspect an error in your strings. Sometimes a wrong hidden character could cause this sort of problem.

I suggest, that you delete and rewrite manually all your strings set up.

Just put sample lines instead like:
text1 = "myText1";

Try again if it works then there's a problem with your string. Restitute some original strings until you detect which one causes the problem then try rewrite it manually (no copy/paste). That could solve the problem.

Quote that the error message could be wrong, that sort of thing could happen.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
help with dialog in Blades of Avernum
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 20:50 Profile #3
From the error message you suspect an error in your strings. Sometimes a wrong hidden character could cause this sort of problem.

I suggest, that you delete and rewrite manually all your strings set up.

Just put sample lines instead like:
text1 = "myText1";

Try again if it works then there's a problem with your string. Restitute some original strings until you detect which one causes the problem then try rewrite it manually (no copy/paste). That could solve the problem.

Quote that the error message could be wrong, that sort of thing could happen.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
A game programmer's point of view in Blades of Avernum Editor
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 20:34 Profile #32
Yes the problem is also to support in BoA more features than was needed in Avernum. I had already mention that in a previous post.

You quoted two features added. But are you sure that all NPC behave the same?

It's not because it's a single program that it doesn't have any subroutine (or functions). A good design would be to have some subroutines to manage different NPC behavior, no need of script for doing that.

That said if you are right and if all NPC behave in a same way then perhaps there's only one subroutine. But how are you sure? In fact in theory it's even possible to do just a subroutine that get in input complicate set of data in order to manage different NPC behavior.

Perhaps it's the case even in BoA. Furthermore, it's most probably the case if like I bet, Jeff didn't implement any compiler.

Well I didn't want to enter in those details and supposed (it's possible) that there was in Avernum subroutines for NPC very similar to NPC script design. Even if this was true there's a large area for plenty work before to get the BoA scripts.

It's what I tried to explain.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
A game programmer's point of view in Blades of Avernum
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 20:34 Profile #32
Yes the problem is also to support in BoA more features than was needed in Avernum. I had already mention that in a previous post.

You quoted two features added. But are you sure that all NPC behave the same?

It's not because it's a single program that it doesn't have any subroutine (or functions). A good design would be to have some subroutines to manage different NPC behavior, no need of script for doing that.

That said if you are right and if all NPC behave in a same way then perhaps there's only one subroutine. But how are you sure? In fact in theory it's even possible to do just a subroutine that get in input complicate set of data in order to manage different NPC behavior.

Perhaps it's the case even in BoA. Furthermore, it's most probably the case if like I bet, Jeff didn't implement any compiler.

Well I didn't want to enter in those details and supposed (it's possible) that there was in Avernum subroutines for NPC very similar to NPC script design. Even if this was true there's a large area for plenty work before to get the BoA scripts.

It's what I tried to explain.
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum Editor
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 20:02 Profile #45
1 - About the closing of the school 100 years ago
The dragon mentions that, some other NPC too, like Axel that mentions a century ago. Why it's in fact 80 years? Perhaps sealing date? There are evidence that the two dates couldn't be the same like cobold invading the school and later they are closed in by mages.

2 - About the first effects
They apeared 6 years ago (not six month, sorry for this error).

3 - The push button
quote:
all they had to do to dispose of this pollution was to PUSH A BUTTON. And they didn't do it.
That's not a moral problem not well managed in the scenario.

Forget one second any morale subject. Look at this fact, it is "just" a possible coherence problem of the story.

In fact I'm not sure it's even a coherence problem. Afterall did the mage mastered teleportation? Did they had time to set up a teleport portal? I don't think so and then pushing the button was doing a suicide. That's a good reason to not push the button when the problems aren't here and are in the long term.

Anyway, instead of "coherence problem", apply any that you understand:
- "logic problem".
- "realism problem"

It's not because this scenario is quoted in an article about morale that a coherence problem is a problem with its management of the morale.

Yes there's a morale problem despite this possible coherence problem.

I won't quote you any script line because I curently play the BoE version (and write notes since this replay) and still get a lot of fun that I don't want spoil.

Concerning my first approximate interpretation, it is close to what has explained TiaraLi but with certain differences that I must check.

The TiaraLi version isn't an hypothesis for a major part. Apart if you want consider that the various notes found are lying but that makes no sense.

There are evidences that:
- There are three leaders of the school.
- Vannia want to hide to the Empire any possible problems, particularly the future pollution problem.
- Vannia is agree to close, to leave and to seal up the school.
- The two other (Palhatis and Pergaltho ie P&P) are against her.
- P&P don't want to leave and close the school because of what they let behind which is a future danger.
- P&P want warn the emperor about that problem but they didn't succeed because of Vannia strategy.
- P&P take care to prepare a solution in order to solve the problem once the disaster will have started.
- They obviously can't push the button now. About that, I have a sample explanation, they don't master teleporting so doing it would be doing a suicide. A good reason to not doing it when the problems aren't here and are in the long term.
- P&P and Vannia are struggling for getting the favor of the emperor. Vannia want the power for her only and want take the opportunity to make the two other abdicate all responsibility.
- Obviously Vannia saw an opportunity to get the power for her only, through this (future) pollution problem and the closing of the school.

For more, more details like what happened exactely to P&P, as I explained, I need to play BoE version and BoA version.

So with Vannia we have a typical struggle for the power, personnal ambition. It is also a typical kind of attitude of some persons in charge. Under their responsibility, there is no problem, never.

Unlike TiaraLi, I don’t see there, a questioning of the responsibility for governments for this type of problems.

I see there more the description of the risk of a lost of responsibility for causes for which the effects are dubious and in the long term.

In this kind of case, the personal ambitions take the top quickly. It’s more a questioning of the companies whose first objective is the interest, of the people whom the ambition can quickly make them forget possible long-term consequences.

This kind of attitudes can go up to hide the facts with more or less sincere justifications: It’s not certain, it’s in the very long term, and by then, the problem will be regulated.

All of that is a morale problem.

If you want we speak about morale I can push even further. One morale of the scenario is that for dubious possible long term problems, we can't be confident in capitalism mechanism. We can't be confident in companies and personnal ambitions in order to manage long-term problems.

If they can hide possible long-term problems and win more money, someone will do it. That's why external controls and rules are necessessary.

Furthermore, to keep working the capitalism mechanism, many of those sort of agreement need a worldwide treaty. What to think about a country that refuses to sign some when it has nothing better to propose?

There are worse, some other countries had already decided to sign but they get pressured to make them change their decision and some finally didn't sign.

4 - 100 years later
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Again, I don't think the part about VoDT taking place one hundred years after the fact is the most important part to most people here.
Then I doubt those people succeed to enjoy this scenario:
- What makes special this scenario is exactely that.
- What makes the more subtil fun of the scenario is exactely that.
- Searching to find all clues, notes and evidences is a big un of this scenario including from a replay point of view.

I think BoA version is a bit improved on that part.

5 - About link with nuclear waste and warehouse (submarin or not)
I agree that that doesn't fit well. But the the point of comparison isn't a current science problem, as you seem to suggest (I don't see any morale problem here).

It's about leak that could appear 100 years later, and cause a pollution in a limited area. Sure there won't be any push buttons. :)

[ Sunday, May 23, 2004 20:22: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
Article - The Moral of the Story in Blades of Avernum
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 20:02 Profile #45
1 - About the closing of the school 100 years ago
The dragon mentions that, some other NPC too, like Axel that mentions a century ago. Why it's in fact 80 years? Perhaps sealing date? There are evidence that the two dates couldn't be the same like cobold invading the school and later they are closed in by mages.

2 - About the first effects
They apeared 6 years ago (not six month, sorry for this error).

3 - The push button
quote:
all they had to do to dispose of this pollution was to PUSH A BUTTON. And they didn't do it.
That's not a moral problem not well managed in the scenario.

Forget one second any morale subject. Look at this fact, it is "just" a possible coherence problem of the story.

In fact I'm not sure it's even a coherence problem. Afterall did the mage mastered teleportation? Did they had time to set up a teleport portal? I don't think so and then pushing the button was doing a suicide. That's a good reason to not push the button when the problems aren't here and are in the long term.

Anyway, instead of "coherence problem", apply any that you understand:
- "logic problem".
- "realism problem"

It's not because this scenario is quoted in an article about morale that a coherence problem is a problem with its management of the morale.

Yes there's a morale problem despite this possible coherence problem.

I won't quote you any script line because I curently play the BoE version (and write notes since this replay) and still get a lot of fun that I don't want spoil.

Concerning my first approximate interpretation, it is close to what has explained TiaraLi but with certain differences that I must check.

The TiaraLi version isn't an hypothesis for a major part. Apart if you want consider that the various notes found are lying but that makes no sense.

There are evidences that:
- There are three leaders of the school.
- Vannia want to hide to the Empire any possible problems, particularly the future pollution problem.
- Vannia is agree to close, to leave and to seal up the school.
- The two other (Palhatis and Pergaltho ie P&P) are against her.
- P&P don't want to leave and close the school because of what they let behind which is a future danger.
- P&P want warn the emperor about that problem but they didn't succeed because of Vannia strategy.
- P&P take care to prepare a solution in order to solve the problem once the disaster will have started.
- They obviously can't push the button now. About that, I have a sample explanation, they don't master teleporting so doing it would be doing a suicide. A good reason to not doing it when the problems aren't here and are in the long term.
- P&P and Vannia are struggling for getting the favor of the emperor. Vannia want the power for her only and want take the opportunity to make the two other abdicate all responsibility.
- Obviously Vannia saw an opportunity to get the power for her only, through this (future) pollution problem and the closing of the school.

For more, more details like what happened exactely to P&P, as I explained, I need to play BoE version and BoA version.

So with Vannia we have a typical struggle for the power, personnal ambition. It is also a typical kind of attitude of some persons in charge. Under their responsibility, there is no problem, never.

Unlike TiaraLi, I don’t see there, a questioning of the responsibility for governments for this type of problems.

I see there more the description of the risk of a lost of responsibility for causes for which the effects are dubious and in the long term.

In this kind of case, the personal ambitions take the top quickly. It’s more a questioning of the companies whose first objective is the interest, of the people whom the ambition can quickly make them forget possible long-term consequences.

This kind of attitudes can go up to hide the facts with more or less sincere justifications: It’s not certain, it’s in the very long term, and by then, the problem will be regulated.

All of that is a morale problem.

If you want we speak about morale I can push even further. One morale of the scenario is that for dubious possible long term problems, we can't be confident in capitalism mechanism. We can't be confident in companies and personnal ambitions in order to manage long-term problems.

If they can hide possible long-term problems and win more money, someone will do it. That's why external controls and rules are necessessary.

Furthermore, to keep working the capitalism mechanism, many of those sort of agreement need a worldwide treaty. What to think about a country that refuses to sign some when it has nothing better to propose?

There are worse, some other countries had already decided to sign but they get pressured to make them change their decision and some finally didn't sign.

4 - 100 years later
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Again, I don't think the part about VoDT taking place one hundred years after the fact is the most important part to most people here.
Then I doubt those people succeed to enjoy this scenario:
- What makes special this scenario is exactely that.
- What makes the more subtil fun of the scenario is exactely that.
- Searching to find all clues, notes and evidences is a big un of this scenario including from a replay point of view.

I think BoA version is a bit improved on that part.

5 - About link with nuclear waste and warehouse (submarin or not)
I agree that that doesn't fit well. But the the point of comparison isn't a current science problem, as you seem to suggest (I don't see any morale problem here).

It's about leak that could appear 100 years later, and cause a pollution in a limited area. Sure there won't be any push buttons. :)

[ Sunday, May 23, 2004 20:22: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00
"Articles' Reviews" and "Article - Writting an Article" in Blades of Avernum Editor
Vent
Warrior
Member # 4186
 written Sunday, May 23 2004 15:54 Profile #0
Why not? :D

Some suggestions:
* Article's Article - Your first Article
* Article's Article - The 10 Dread Diseases
* Article's Article - High Level Articles
* Article's Article - Don't Draw Focus!
* Article's Article - Filler
* Article's Article - Designing Quality Articles
* Article's Article - Basic but Vital Tips

Sounds interesting? :P

[ Sunday, May 23, 2004 16:07: Message edited by: Vent ]
Posts: 175 | Registered: Friday, April 2 2004 08:00

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