"The End of Blades" Discussion

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AuthorTopic: "The End of Blades" Discussion
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #50
quote:
Also, who ought to ask him, and how? Some have suggested that I ought to do it, but I'm not sure.
I hope you said that because you are not an arrogant bastard. I think you or TM would be the best, as the scenario's of you two or found the best by, well, everybody. I think you two are both representatives of the blades scenario design community. Who of you two is eventually going to ask Jeff, you may fight about yourself.

However, I don't want to spoil the fun, but I'd rather see that first until eight place gets a free game, instead of first, second and third a cash prize, and four and five a free game. That will mean $200 value of prizes. I think he'd rather have that (at least I would).

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Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

Give us your drek!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
BANNED
Member # 4
Profile Homepage #51
I've got a little different history than Kel's:

quote:
2/19/03 - Louvre by BB established.
3/17/04 - Blades of Avernum is released.
3/18/04 - Comprehensive BOA Scenario Rankings established.
4/3/04 - Beta Call for Roses of Reckoning by TM
4/7/04 - Roses of Reckoning by TM is released. (20 days post-BoA)
4/27/04 - Beta Call for Cave of No Return by Eldiran
5/25/04 - High Level Party Maker by Kelandon is released. (58 days)
5/30/04 - Babysitting by Khoth is released. (63 days)
6/2/04 - Blades of Avernum is released for Windows.
6/18/04 - Cave of No Return by Eldiran is released. (82 days)
8/5/04 - Beta Call for Emerald Mountain by TM
8/9/04 - Beta Call for Xerch'de by Zxquez
8/10/04 - Emerald Mountain by TM is released. (145 days)
8/17/04 - Artifacts Hall by TM is released. (152 days)
8/17/04 - Death at Chapmans by Eric Westra is released. (152 days)
8/22/04 - Beta Call for A Perfect Forest by Stareye (157 days)
9/5/04 - A Perfect Forest by Stareye is released. (171 days)
10/17/04 - Beta Call for Canopy by TM.
12/25/04 - Canopy: Manufactured Womb by TM is released. (282 days)
12/27/04 - Beta Call for Bahssikava by Kelandon.
12/28/04 - Xerch'de by Zxquez is released. (285 days)
2/1/05 - Beta Call for Backwater Calls by Smoo.
2/20/05 - Bahssikava by Kelandon is released. (339 days)
2/28/05 - Backwater Calls by Smoo is released. (347 days)
3/25/05 - Beta Call for The Darkness by Kelandon.
3/29/05 - Lord Putidus by Kelandon is released. (376 days)
4/7/05 - Nine Variations on Point B by Alec is released. (385 days)
4/16/05 - Cresent Valley by Michael Slack is released. (394 days)
5/15/05 - Beta Call for Mad Ambition by TM.
5/24/05 - Undead Valley by Archimagi Micael is released. (432 days)
6/5/05 - Druids of Krell by Ephesos is released. (444 days)
6/6/05 - A Large Rebellion by Otto Halmén is released. (445 days)
6/9/05 - Mad Ambition by TM is released. (448 days)
10/17/05 - Proving Grounds by Michael Slack is released. (578 days)
quote:
Attitudes like these are snobby and unproductive.
What, you think that my perspective is lacking? If so, let's talk facts.

For the BoA contest, we had roughly 15 scenarios entered. Let's be generous and say that we had 20 altogether (including beta-testers') when the contest hit.

For the corresponding time in the BoE contest, we had soooooo many it's not even funny. Blades of Avernum does not have an answer to Amazonian Saga, Tatterdemalion, et cetera, DESPITE BoA's having a larger pool from which to draw designers. And I would be absolutely astonished if BoA had an answer to An Apology or Redemption 1-2 years from now.

We have a better platform with more power and a larger pool of potential designers, many of whom have far more resources than the BoE designers ever did. Regardless of BoA's difficulties, the absence of excellent scenarios signifies a horrific low in designing which cannot be rationalized away.

Action has to be taken. Open-sourcing BoE would be a nice start.

quote:
It's already been superseded in both technical and story terms by Av4
Anyone who dares complement A4 deserves whatever form of death visits such a subhuman animal.

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Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #52
Does that mean you are also all the other people, like eldiran? Or did you just beta-test? And, what does that matter actually? I judge for what I see at the moment, and I see two people who make good scenario, but I won't start endangering the fluffy kittens here.

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Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

Give us your drek!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #53
quote:
Originally written by Prometheus:

Anyone who dares complement A4 deserves whatever form of death visits such a subhuman animal.
Aaahhh! We'd better not release any supplementary scenarios to go along with A4, then!

But we can say nice things about it as much as we want. :P

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #54
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:


1st prize: $100
2nd prize: $60
3rd prize: $40
4th and 5th prizes: a free game

My advice with this is to ask for more and come lower when challenged, it gives you more room for compromise. This is a typical tactic used in negotiation: always ask for more than you expect to get. The caveat to that is you cannot ask for too much lest the person whom you are negotating does not take you seriously.

Also, the $40 cash prize is rather silly because it is little more than a free game from Spiderweb.

I propose an alternatively higher prize structure this:

1st prize: $250
2nd prize: $150
3rd prize: $100
4th-5th: Free game

Although the prizes are a bit high; Roughly $560 total seems like a bit much, but it does start higher. This is one of the cases where more is better.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #55
Since I posted here information about my scenario, I thought I'd post here some more information. I put up some screenshots on my website. Feel free to look and tell me what you think, but don't expect me to change anything. Also, there seems to be a problem with the enlarging. I have no clue of why this happens.

--------------------
Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

Give us your drek!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #56
quote:
Originally written by Thralni, The flying Dutchmen:

Since I posted here information about my scenario, I thought I'd post here some more information. I put up some screenshots on my website. Feel free to look and tell me what you think, but don't expect me to change anything. Also, there seems to be a problem with the enlarging. I have no clue of why this happens.
While expanded images would be more helpful, those look quite promising. A few of the captions sound a little strange, and some suggest bad things about the plot. I can't wait to see it...

And those ads are really annoying, Thralni.

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.

I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #57
I just don't understand why the images don't expand. they should actually. maybe somebody who understands HTML better than I do, would have the time to look at it? (I look at you Aran...).

Ephesos, maybe you could PM me about these things that "suggest" bad things of the plot? I'm very curious...

--------------------
Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

Give us your drek!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #58
quote:
Originally written by Thralni, The flying Dutchmen:

I just don't understand why the images don't expand. they should actually. maybe somebody who understands HTML better than I do, would have the time to look at it? (I look at you Aran...).

Ephesos, maybe you could PM me about these things that "suggest" bad things of the plot? I'm very curious...

The full-size images don't appear to exist, at least not at the place where you link to them from the thumbnails. Have you checked that they are uploaded?

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EncyclopaediaArchivesMembersRSS [Topic / Forum] • BlogPolarisNaNoWriMo
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
I have a love of woodwind instruments.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #59
quote:
Originally written by *i:

My advice with this is to ask for more and come lower when challenged, it gives you more room for compromise. This is a typical tactic used in negotiation: always ask for more than you expect to get.
I would agree, except that we're not likely to be negotiating here. We're going to present amounts and Jeff is probably either going to say "Yes" or "No."

quote:
Also, the $40 cash prize is rather silly because it is little more than a free game from Spiderweb.
Free game = $25, so it's a little more than that. I would go low because we have no reason to believe that he has any interest in doing this. As far as I know, all he's ever done before for community-run contests is given out a free game to a top prize winner, right?

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
BANNED
Member # 4
Profile Homepage #60
This is true. And it was only one game for the programming contest.

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*
Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6489
Profile Homepage #61
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

in our productive meeting
Do I detect a hint of sarcasm, Kel?

[ Sunday, February 19, 2006 15:40: Message edited by: Tyranicus ]

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"You're drinking liquor because you're thirsty? How nasty is your freaking water?" —Lazarus
Spiderweb Chat Room
Avernum RPSummariesOoCRoster
Shadow Vale - My site, home of the Spiderweb Chat Database, BoA Scenario Database, & the A1 Quest List, among other things.
Posts: 1556 | Registered: Sunday, November 20 2005 08:00
E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
Profile Homepage #62
Getting free games off him isn't hard. Getting cash? I wish you luck.

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SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Warrior
Member # 5274
Profile #63
quote:
quote:
It's already been superseded in both technical and story terms by Av4
Anyone who dares complement A4 deserves whatever form of death visits such a subhuman animal.

Hah, I don't think you know my dead seated hatred for Avernum 4 or "the abortion" as I affectionately like to call it. What I was getting at is that BoA only had a relatively brief period to establish itself before the engine it was built on was ditched. If there is no certainty about the future of a program who want to commit to designing something over the prolonged period of time it takes to produce a decent scenario?

quote:
quote:
Attitudes like these are snobby and unproductive.
What, you think that my perspective is lacking? If so, let's talk facts.
I probably didn't need to say that, I'm just always wary of discussions that becomes a pissing match over matters of seniority. Luckily this one hasn't.

One of the interesting things about this situation is there may not be much we can do. What struck me about all of the suggestions many people including both I* and TM made, (scenario competition, AIM chats, ironing out plot ideas,) is that they're mostly very sensible things to do. They are good thoughful choices to make in this situation, except for the fact that they don't seem to have worked. Obviously it's impossible to expect some sort of overnight success, but have we had any?

The crucial thing here is attracting new blood, to generate the critical mass of fans and designers needed to sustain BoA after it is rendered "obsolete" by other SW games. Does anyone thing we have that?

I'm probably being a bit too dramatic and devils advocatish but consider.

...BoA requires a longer period of time spent to create a scenario than BoE.
...BoA was superseded by a newer SW game faster than BoE.
...There are other distractions in the gaming world, not least Avernum 4 and the Geneoforge series

My question would be, does BoA right now have the conditions and structure that would lead to long term success?

quote:
Action has to be taken. Open-sourcing BoE would be a nice start.

Maybe I missed this boat? What do you plan to do to the source code?

[ Sunday, February 19, 2006 20:08: Message edited by: Poit ]

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I assume my reputation for arrogant presumption precedes me
Posts: 107 | Registered: Thursday, December 9 2004 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #64
It seems to me that there are a lot of people thinking about making a scenario, or thinking about convincing other people to make scenarios, but few people actually committing to making one -- and those who do start on a scenario often abandon it halfway through. We need to start putting more pressure on people to deliver.

And so, on this day, I solemnly swear that I will make and release a scenario. I will complete it by the contest deadline, come Hell or high water. I make this oath here on the forums so that everyone else can hold me to it.

Is anyone else here willing to make the same commitment?

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #65
I also swear that I will make a scenario for the contest.

Two, hopefully, but I can commit to one.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2104
Profile Homepage #66
Xerch'de would not have been released had TM not asked me about it. I have yet to decide whether that was good or bad.

I wouldn't go so far as make an oath, but I will try as hard as I can to get out of my slump and make something for the contest.

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—Zxquez Zolohahni
Xerch'de/Rate.
Posts: 549 | Registered: Thursday, October 17 2002 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 4153
Profile Homepage #67
I do solemnly swear to finish at least one quality scenario by the contest deadline. Two, if DoK2 survives its time on the shelf.

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Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice.

I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion.
Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #68
Aran: The pics are there. I think I'm gonna do it differently. that way it is supposed to work... It may be up in three or four hours.

--------------------
Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

Give us your drek!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #69
i got them to work now. It will be a lot easier to look at them (although it was a great hassle to make seperate pages for all of them).

Ephesos and Aran, thanks for your help.

--------------------
Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

Give us your drek!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #70
quote:
Originally written by Poit:

Maybe I missed this boat? What do you plan to do to the source code?
Bug fixing, presumably. Sadly, BoE is as full of bugs as a foreign embassy. :P

Also, the scenario editor could use some additional tools - such as a larger editing screen than 5*5, a dialogue editor, a node editor, etc. As of now, it is nearly impossible to understand even your own nodework after a few weeks without meticulous notes, let alone someone else's.

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EncyclopaediaArchivesMembersRSS [Topic / Forum] • BlogPolarisNaNoWriMo
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
I have a love of woodwind instruments.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #71
Why only BoE? the BoA editor itself (although immensely improved) could also use a node editor and such things. It does bother me that you have fifteen different programs and editors, while these could be combined to one.

--------------------
Play and rate my scenarios:

Where the rivers meet
View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape.

Give us your drek!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #72
The difference is that the source for the BoA editor is open-source already, and Kel's site has a short list of very useful utilities that have been developed already.

That they are all in separate applications is not surprising; after all they are separate projects. Presumably, they can all work on the same scenario files though, unlike in BoE, where a utility could not interface with or extend the editor at all.

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EncyclopaediaArchivesMembersRSS [Topic / Forum] • BlogPolarisNaNoWriMo
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
I have a love of woodwind instruments.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 3442
Profile Homepage #73
I solemnly swear to deliver a BoA scenario very soon. I'm not promising it will be any good, but I'm doing it.

And I'm gonna keep hammering them out too. I have stories to tell, and now I can use the editor properly, you let are gonna bloody well listen to them.

:)

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And when you want to Live
How do you start?
Where do you go?
Who do you need to know?

Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #74
I promise that I will release a Blades of Exile scenario before the contest deadline.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00

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