Phaedra

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AuthorTopic: Phaedra
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #125
quote:
Originally written by PoD person:

You just seemed awfully annoyed by a criticism of the present.
Not because it is a criticism of the present; because it is made on invalid grounds.

There are problems with gender relations in the world today. I just think that TM has over-generalized and thereby failed to enunciate properly any of them.

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
Profile #126
Point taken.

You must admit that he has a lot of points, though. He just made Phaedra's molehill into a mountain because, let's face it, opportunities to talk about some of this stuff are few and far between.

EDIT: I think TM would have actually been better served by being more general straightaway. The only problem I have with what he is saying is that he won't let go of specifics in what is essentially a generalized debate. Well, that and the Marxism, because that's an econo-political philosophy, not an interpersonal relations one.

[ Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:57: Message edited by: PoD person ]
Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #127
quote:
Originally written by PoD person:

He just made Phaedra's molehill into a mountain
Does this seem like an unfortunate image to anyone else? :P

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Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens.
Smoo: Get ready to face the walls!
Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr.

Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me
The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever
Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
Profile #128
D'oh.

Um,...

A very ... sexist... process, that.

EDIT: Not to mention lopsided, because it's in the singular.

[ Thursday, April 14, 2005 13:02: Message edited by: PoD person ]
Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #129
quote:
Although I'm not sure if it's possible to want to look good "for oneself
Girls and women choose clothes furthermost to please themselves, sometimes also to pass the critical test of other women's eyes. You are third on the list. Makes sense. You are easiest to please.

But should you really feel a girl is consciously provoking you with her outfit, use the old trick. Ignore her body, look straight into her eyes. Works.

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Polaris
Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done
Rache's A3 Site, original version
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
Profile #130
The questions I'm about to ask aren't in an argumentative spirit at all; I'm genuinely curious.

Ef, spy.there, or whichever girl (or guy, I suppose) wants to answer:

How do you choose what looks "good" and what doesn't? Do you think the pleasure comes from simple satisfaction with the way you look, i.e an aesthetic sensation, or are you more interested in the concept of being good looking? In other words, do you take more pleasure from the image itself, or from the fact that you look good (regardless of to whom you are doing so)?

[ Thursday, April 14, 2005 15:08: Message edited by: PoD person ]
Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #131
(I am a guy, by the way, so I am not necessarily representative of women. Nor am I necessarily representative of men.)
I, personally, like to wear clothes that I like, not because others think they look good (because they certainly don't, but because I think they look good and they make me feel good. I am wearing a Trogdor The Burninator hoodie right now, for instance. Not fashionable at all (actually rather childish) and it isn't particularly flattering on me. It's not even very comfortable compared to my other three hoodies. It's a little too small. But I like it anyway because I like the way it looks.
As for the issue of thongs not being comfortable, I have something to say. And no, I don't wear them myself, to anticipate the otherwise inevitable comment from Alec and/or TM. I don't talk much in school, but the others around me do, which means I get to hear a lot of conversations. During one that I remember, several girls were talking about their underwear. Most of them said that thongs were much more comfortable than regular panties. Only one disagreed, and she had never tried on a thong. It's just like the ever-present "boxers or briefs" discussions that occur between men. Many men will say that boxers are more comfortable than briefs, but I disagree. It's all a matter of personal opinion. I find the fact that it's only the males in this discussion who are saying that today's women's fashions are uncomfortable. How would you know? Even if you had tried on a women's thong, there's still the fact that they weren't designed to accommodate male genitals. The only ones mentioned in this thread that I haven't heard many people are high heels, which I've noticed the majority of girls at my school dislike wearing, and tube tops, which I've never heard any woman one way or the other whether they were comfortable or not.

EDIT: Removed redundant repetitiveness.

[ Thursday, April 14, 2005 15:48: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ]

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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #132
Comfort is always priority, but looking nice is important also.

Thongs are not at all uncomfortable. They seem like they would be, but quality ones are fine.

My only complaint about tube tops is that they slide down a lot. They need to be pulled up all the time. Strapless bras are useless.

High heals suck. Mostly because they make it hard to walk, but they are structurally terrible. I don't see how they could be truly comfortable as they cause the body to contract unnaturally.
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #133
I choose what looks good on me and feels in tune with me. It should also be comfortable and easy to move in. I want something that makes me feel and look 'myself', something I can identify with. What is really in tune with me, part of me, will make me look good. Don't know if that answers your question though.

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Polaris
Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done
Rache's A3 Site, original version
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Warrior
Member # 5362
Profile #134
isn't it amazing that the conversation has gone from noticing an A2 charector to feminism/sexism to what individual people like to wear
Posts: 59 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3898
Profile #135
[rant]

You do realise that a significant amount of this discussion (particularly the early parts) is totally superfluous (sp?) due to the fact that Phaedra is not nessecarially Kelanadon's opinion. He could, if he chose, put into his scenario a character who was absolutely nothing but a dumb slut - but that wouldn't mean that he saw women as being such. Even if Phaedra did "represent corporate whoredom for the purpose of linking meritocracy with larger breasts", that doesn't mean that Kelandon thought that was a good thing or even bloody well intended it to be like that. Just because he designed Phaedra as such a character *gasp* doesn't nessecarially mean that it's automatically an allusion to sexism. There's such a thing as "reading too much into the situation", and it has been happening a lot here.

[/rant]

OTOH, there still are other custom graphics, Kel.

[ Friday, April 15, 2005 11:16: Message edited by: The Asphalt of Apathy ]

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Posts: 364 | Registered: Saturday, January 17 2004 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
Profile #136
You know, if the discussion was actually about Phaedra, it wouldn't be six pages long. Some discussions start out as being about one thing and then move on to (Gasp!) more interesting things. This one just happened to have a bit of an ugly transition period.
Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #137
Perhaps we've reached this point...

IMAGE(http://www.goenglish.com/GoEnglish_com_BeatADeadHorse.gif)
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #138
Maybe we've reached that point. Though PoD's question as I understood it was an interesting one: What do you strive to achieve? Create an image or just look well?

To me this question was related to something that irritated me while reading the thread. Some of you, trying to uphold female dignity, more or less asked us to see ourselves with a man's eyes, not with our own. To consider male reactions to our clothing, and not just follow our own whim. I didn't like that. It stresses that I should be more aware of how others perceive me, than of how I perceive myself (which is a problem of many a girl anyway). That's not a good advice. Playing with various styles of clothing, following trends or not can be part of the search for self-identication and often is, at least in girls. You don't find out, if you don't try; some errors are included.

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Polaris
Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done
Rache's A3 Site, original version
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #139
That's an interesting point; I do know that it's the case, for example, that my fiancee is much more concerned with my appearance than I am. I guess as far as it goes for me, my primary concern is being comfortable. I don't usually object too strongly when she wants me to wear a certain pair of jeans, or a certain shirt, or certain shoes, because usually, it's a small sacrifice to make for her happiness. Given the choice, however, I'm perfectly content to be unshaven and wear my old jeans and decidedly out-of-style Birks.

The funny thing is that she was never fashion conscious until she went to college, and according to her, it was the other girls, not the guys, that made her want to dress better. Why was this suddenly important? She grew up in a small town in Connecticut, with essentially the same classmates the entire way through, so I'm guessing that social standing was pretty much set in stone, no matter what clothes people wore. Once she went to college, however, she was in a whole new ballpark, and she realized the role that even superficial perceptions play in relations.

Generally, I don't get too caught up in dressing well, because I don't care too much what other people think about the way I look - I'm me, a somewhat surly yet thoughtful Kentuckian, and people will either dig me or not. Granted, this is much easier to assert now that I don't have to sweat looking for a mate anymore, though in truth I was never banking too much on my looks for that anyway! :)
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Guardian
Member # 3521
Profile #140
I'm more concerned with my appearance than I'm often willing to admit. I've always been a thoroughly aesthetic person, with a pretty natural sense of the attractive and unattractive. Granted, I don't at all dress like a conventional fashion plate. I suppose I've cultivated something of an image all to my own, complete with a hat of vaguely military appearance, collared shirts, old-school jackets, and a very classics-oriented taste in music. Hell, tonight I went out with a bunch of pals, all of us decked out in shirts with iron-on stylistic images of me, in the classic Che Guevara style. If only my personal mystique would net me a girl once in a while. If only.

Hmm, this is hardly relevant, but you could hardly hope for anything more seriously applicable in a thread like this from me even in a perfectly sober state.

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Stughalf

"Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita.
Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 5339
Profile #141
this phaedra stuff seems to be a hot topic
Posts: 36 | Registered: Thursday, December 30 2004 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #142
There is a theory concerning web boards, which states that any thread that successfully lives beyond a certain number of posts - anywhere from the average length to double that - will continue to inflate itself by inciting further people to post.

A corollary theory states that these further posts consists to a good part of spammers and other less sharp individuals who have nothing to say except marvel about how long the topic has become. :rolleyes:

[ Saturday, April 16, 2005 02:36: Message edited by: Eyrin Fontramonn ]

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EncyclopaediaArchivesMembersRSS [Topic / Forum] • BlogPolarisNaNoWriMo
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
I have a love of woodwind instruments.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
Profile #143
That's interesting, because I only have two priorities when picking clothing:

Does it chafe? - If it restricts my motion or rubs me raw, no go.

Will I be ridiculed?

Of course, a small amount of chafing is okay to forestall a large amount of ridicule, and vice versa. I guess I went off half-cocked earlier, assuming that clothing is degrading just because I don't yet understand how to derive any pleasure from it. That said, I abhor the idea of a "fashion statement." I'll decide who I want to pretend to be when I get there, not when I'm getting dressed, thank you very much.

Ef: Another thing I was getting at was, where do you think your whims come from regarding clothing? I pretty much only care about it insofar as it prevents ridicule, so I'm interested.

Aran: You forgot the people who feel the need to chastise the actual participants for going off topic.

[ Saturday, April 16, 2005 04:52: Message edited by: PoD person ]
Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #144
And the people who chastise the chastisers for harassing other members. And so on.

Wasn't there some lightbulb joke about this?

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EncyclopaediaArchivesMembersRSS [Topic / Forum] • BlogPolarisNaNoWriMo
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair.
I have a love of woodwind instruments.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 3811
Profile #145
quote:
Originally written by Eyrin Fontramonn:

A corollary theory states that these further posts consists to a good part of spammers and other less sharp individuals who have nothing to say except marvel about how long the topic has become. :rolleyes:
Me too.

Seriously, if you want to talk sexism, give Phaedra a rest and turn your critique on Crescent Valley. At least Phaedra is a strong supporting character, has dimensions other than her femininity, and the relationship the players have with her is more emotionally mature.

Wearing chainmail bikinis and waving two-handed phallic symbols may be sexist, but it's a sexism many women gladly take part in. Or maybe I just hang out with too many pagans.
Posts: 25 | Registered: Sunday, December 21 2003 08:00
BANNED
Member # 4
Profile Homepage #146
There is nothing I say on these boards that I don't regret later for all of the wrong reasons.

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Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 3811
Profile #147
Oh, the hell w/the topic, I'm hijacking this thread -- We're going to Dolphin's thong!
quote:
Originally written by Dolphin:

Thongs are not at all uncomfortable. They seem like they would be, but quality ones are fine.
I agree, I used to wear t-backs. Once you get used to them, nothing else feels comfortable. I prefer boxers now because they have so much more character, and I like getting the ugliest and most ridiculous-looking ones I can find. And imo, my gf looks pretty sexy in my geeky underwear.
Posts: 25 | Registered: Sunday, December 21 2003 08:00
Agent
Member # 1993
Profile #148
quote:
Originally written by Enkephalin:

... I prefer boxers now because they have so much more character, and I like getting the ugliest and most ridiculous-looking ones I can find. ...
:) According to your moniker you should probably wear greek boxers ...

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Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 3811
Profile #149
quote:
Originally written by spy.there:

:) According to your moniker you should probably wear greek boxers ...
Heh, those are pretty nice. But the greekwear section needs some togas.

[ Wednesday, April 20, 2005 08:01: Message edited by: Enkephalin ]
Posts: 25 | Registered: Sunday, December 21 2003 08:00

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