Phaedra
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, April 13 2005 18:49
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The very point of mentioning that it is a BoA default graphic was to say that within the context of the BoA world, I don't think it is stretching it to say that that graphic could represent a fighter. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, April 13 2005 18:53
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What, you think Jeff got everything right? :P -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, April 13 2005 18:57
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I think that he was the one that made the rules for the universe in which I'm working. ;) [ Wednesday, April 13, 2005 18:57: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, April 13 2005 19:01
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"But that's the way Jeff did it" ain't good enough for me, sorry. :P -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, April 13 2005 19:48
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Part of me wants to say, "Well, it's good enough for me, and it's my damn scenario," but another part of me sort of wants to hold back. I've settled on this compromise. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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E Equals MC What!!!!
Member # 5491
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written Wednesday, April 13 2005 20:52
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Would you object to someone using that defence for their scenario that centered around the Vahnatai trying to destroy the Empire with monster plagues? I'm sorry, but of all the defences to use, it seems like the flimsiest one possible. The best argument you have going for the graphic (which I laughed at everyone else for arguing about, then jumped in when it looked like it had gone on to bigger issues, and now I'm arguing over the graphic myself...), as I see it, is that it's a representation of her character, and that you consider that more important than strict realism. C'mon, give me something better than the Jeff precedent. :P -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5005
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written Wednesday, April 13 2005 21:31
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If TM has anyone to appropriately divulge his argument to, it's Jeff and Jeff only. He made the graphics, so he's the one who should get any flack for making a character too sexy or too physically vulnerable (ie not having substantial clothing for fighting a dragon) or whatever. When I played Basshikava, I didn't take any note to physical appearance as a significant part of the story AT ALL. It wouldn't make a lick of difference (and there's a good chance that this applies to the majority who played it) if he had Phaedra looking like a sea lion (that's pushing it, but it's for emphasis). Kel used that graphic for Phaedra because he could, not because he wanted to demonstrate some kind of misogynist undertone. If any of you saw more into it, I'm almost sensing a Freud complex here... :eek: -------------------- Beware the Were-Rabbit! Posts: 45 | Registered: Tuesday, September 21 2004 07:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Wednesday, April 13 2005 23:07
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Of course the chainmail bikini helps in combat. She's mostly fighting against men, and it's a good distraction. :P -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. New Mac BoE Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 00:01
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quote:And why should anyone care what others think about them? As long as people don't act on their thoughts, they can't harm anyone. And if they do act on those thoughts in a way that causes harm or discomfort, that's their own decision and their own responsibility. There's a good reason why provocation is no longer a valid legal defence in most places. Mind you, this is coming from someone who hardly even notices what other people are wearing anyway. I'd walk around naked fairly often if it were legal, purely for reasons of comfort. (Well, okay, I'd probably be wearing something most of the time, just so I'd have pockets to keep things in.) [ Thursday, April 14, 2005 00:02: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 995
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 00:27
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quote:so would a lot of women. witness Europe, where bare female chests are so common as to not cause men to go nuts. a lot of TM's arguments come from the weird mixture of feminism (in the good, "women should be able to do whatever they want" way and not in the strange "unless whatever they want includes anything we consider bad" way) and the perverse, anti-natural sexual obsession/purianism that exists in America. the one thing Dolphin said that I disagree with is "I'm not a feminist because they're too stuck up"... that's like not following the word of Christ because a bunch of his followers interpret his words and deeds ("turn the other cheek" and "love everyone" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and "forgive everyone" and "it's easier to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven" and his general attitude of being friends even with his enemies) as meaning they can blow places up if they disagree with what they are doing, or wage crusades or inquisitions in His name, or try to raise money by lying on stage... don't think about the uptightness of the feminist followers, think about the concept of "women should be able to do whatever they want, just like men" - the core of feminism, and it's hard to to believe anyone is not a feminist. to that end, too, saying "women only want XYZ because society makes them want it" is to portray them as weak and incapable of making their own decisions. it's terribly misogynistic and anti-feminist. peer pressure was an issue in middle school - how many of us as adults still fall for it? if an adult person chooses to do something, my default assumption is that they have personally chosen to do it. if they are still a victim of peer pressure at their age, then they need therapy, not excuses. adult women choose to wear bikinis in places where it is warm or hot. many would opt to wear less were it legal. for the same reason men go about shirtless. to say they are trying to provoke men is to say they have no right to be comfortable in the heat. it is also to put words in their mouth. and to pretend they are weak, helpless playthings of whatever strings society pulls. I happen to disagree. incidentally, I'm not ridiculing anyone. if you interpret anything I just said as a direct attack on yer own person, I suggest you read it again. really. (incidentally, the female orgasm is by every means I can determine, more powerful and pleasurable and enduring than the male orgasm. females who do not enjoy sex are either not doing it right, or with someone who is not doing it right, or both). --- If Phaedra wants to wear a chain mail bikini at her level, I'm sure she's aware of the risk of being cut (and also aware of the amazingly abundant availability of healing power in her world), and simply rates her own melee skills well enough that she's not worried about it, and would rather be comfortable. [ Thursday, April 14, 2005 00:33: Message edited by: silver harloe ] Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 1451
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 03:38
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Maybe we should just ask Kelandon. He made the scenario, he created Phaedra, so gets to say why she is the way she is. Disputing the author's statement would be, um, stupid? On the subject of stupidty, anyone trying desperately to fit in somewhere so s/he does things just because others want her/him to, is IMO of questionable mental health. I agree with silver harloe here. As for that "because Jeff did it" is an insufficient excuse, I want to add that it makes a story cohesive if it complies with the universe it is placed in. -------------------- I am pleased to make contact with your entities. Posts: 123 | Registered: Sunday, July 7 2002 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 03:41
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quote:RECTA quote:Their intent can be genuine- although admittedly, it isn't always- but saying that they have no right to be comfortable in the heat isn't what anyone here has said. (Although I must admit that up here, I'm sorta looking forward to rising temperatures...) There are craploads of comfortable yet loose-fitting garments which both don't insulate the wearer and don't put undue exposure on parts that sure as hell don't need it. And really- are you telling me that the direction fashion is going in doesn't stress that women are weak? When women wear less and less, that's not "empowerment." And yes, believe it or not, they did not always wear as much as they currently do. (Well, no duh, but for sake of emphasis...) I am quite sure that this is most definitely related to the greater openness about sexuality. Which, as I have stated before, is more to me a matter of selling dignity for hedonism, money or both. What? Not all women do everything for the same reasons? No duh. But then again, when they wear things that can and will be read as such, they do not make life easier on men who genuinely want to treat them with dignity. Honestly, I'm not "against sex". I just think that, moreso than anything else, America needed an emotive revolution and an intellectual one before diving into a sexual one. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 03:55
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quote:Oh, just put on a frigging blindfold already. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 1451
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 04:20
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quote:Seconded. -------------------- I am pleased to make contact with your entities. Posts: 123 | Registered: Sunday, July 7 2002 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 04:24
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I'm not sure from whence you think it's your duty much less your prerogative to comment. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 1451
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 04:41
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I felt like doing it, it was not against the rules and I could do it. Hence my justification. -------------------- I am pleased to make contact with your entities. Posts: 123 | Registered: Sunday, July 7 2002 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 04:43
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quote:1) It is. Saying "I agree" and nothing else constitutes spam. (Nevermind that it's flaming, but nevertheless.) 2) Stop being a sphyncter-licker already. Believe this as you may, it doesn't make you popular. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 1451
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 04:55
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Ok, point for you. Should I elaborate on how I absolutely HATE people trying to shape other's actions to fit themselves without allowing that these persona might not be amused with that, next time? -------------------- I am pleased to make contact with your entities. Posts: 123 | Registered: Sunday, July 7 2002 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 05:34
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quote:Pot, kettle, you know. quote:That's different, and I have enough respect for your intelligence to assume that you know that it is, so I'm not sure why you're saying it. At any rate, I don't feel like arguing this point, because I've already stated the main reason why I used the graphic (you referenced it). quote:Many actual women would say differently. Madonna, for one. The pre-1960's view of sexuality that you hold up as being better was really little more than the inability to talk about sexuality at all, including for women to talk about their sexual needs and desires. As annoying as it is to have "Sex in the City" on TV on perpetual re-run, at least now we can communicate about these issues without having to worry. Yes, more progress needs to be made, but the simple fact is that the position of women in modern society today is better than it has ever been in any culture at any other time. quote:It may be this way to you, but I notice that you neither are a girl nor are representative of an entire population. Again, a woman who makes her appeal exclusively sexual is a dumb slut, but girls who wear revealing clothing need not be doing that: they can also be intelligent, worthwhile individuals. One should not pre-judge them. Also, a women who dresses in a certain way to look good primarily for others has certified problems. A woman who dresses in a certain way to look good primarily for herself is strong, and I really don't think the two can be distinguished based on what she's wearing. (Phaedra, for the record, is strong.) I mean, you can take two approaches to this: the fact that some men judge a woman by her clothing means either that a woman needs to control what she conveys by how much skin she reveals, or that those men need to change the way they look at women. I'd favor the latter. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 06:00
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Am I the only one that finds the description of women as "whores" and "sluts" far, far more offensive than Phaedra's costume? Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5437
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 09:12
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quote:You misquote me. I said they are uptight not stuck-up. Feminists tend to be easily offended by the sight of a woman's body. Okay so women want to be able to do everything men do. I don't want to have to do “everything” men do. I like being the female, and I tend to be very natural, I'd prefer the male to hunt. We want to vote, drive, have credit cards, and jobs. There should be a midline where we are treated like people, but also as females. ------------------------------------- I agree that female fashion is taking an odd path. There is a lot of pressure on young girls to wear makeup and reveling clothes. I don't care for makeup personally. Why would I want a bunch of colors on my face? Men seem to really like it though. Young girls see models and actresses doing certain things, and they want to do the same. Are they weak for mimicking other woman? No, they are 12 or 13 years old. All the girls I know started with makeup at 13. I always found it amusing how some of the men tell me I am strong for not wearing makeup and high heals in this day and age, and others say I am lazy. Phaedra: I have no objection to her choice of armor. The fact that she is still alive and as strong as the PC shows she is a competent fighter. I'm sure early humans battled large animals in nothing but loin clothes and spears and survived. Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 12:18
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quote:So? Last I checked, you were a liberal. Since when was that about resting on your laurels? Also, I don't think anyone has said that previous attitudes were better. quote:What "looks good" on women almost always tends to sacrifice the appearance of strength or competence, as well as comfort, in favor of insubstantiality - diminuitive, sheer pieces of clothing, skirts/dresses, high heels, etc. Although I'm not sure if it's possible to want to look good "for oneself," I think that, even if it is, a woman looking good by today's standards, for whomever, implies weakness, and, which is perhaps worse, shallowness. Of course, men's fashion isn't that much better, seeing that its primary purpose seems to be intimidation, whether through conspicuous consumption or the more old-fashioned emphasis on the potential for violence, i.e. focusing on the broadness of the shoulders, etc. quote:The trouble is, this whole debate is really representative of more than clothing. Before the whole sexual revolution, interaction with other human beings was a bunch of formalized rituals. Rather than use their newfound freedom to have authentic relationships, however, the flower power generation simply invented a more licentious and equally inauthentic set of rituals. Thus, those sexy clothes are a constant reminder to those challenged in the way of TM or, I admit, myself, that an individual human is just as alone now as he was in Puritan Boston, and that our plight is so much the worse because we all think that we are free. Add to that the whole raging teenage male hormones thing, and you've got yourself a regular old angst-fest. In other words, it's not that I can't look at scantily-clad women without getting aroused, and that I feel guilty; rather, it's that it's a constant reminder that, not only don't I belong, I don't think I'd even enjoy belonging that much. quote:Can we stop talking about Phaedra already? I am, in fact, offended by neither. No one who has said those things thinks that women are those things, just that various aspects of societal interaction put them in roles reminiscent of those things. [ Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:21: Message edited by: PoD person ] Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 12:24
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quote: quote:To PoD person: You'll note that I said that more progress needs to be made. [ Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:26: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1993
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 12:25
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quote:"Whore" is not an actual offence. Since prostitution is one of the oldest professions of the world, "whore" should not be a term of abuse. Using it as insult shows intolerance and sexism, IMO. quote:Woo Aran, you are a walking encyclopaedia! I start to comprehend your custom title ^_^ to TM: :) I appreciate your fight against sexism. I suppose that you wanted Phaedra to be an example. But I can assure that we women in the industrialized countries are aware of dress codes. And I'm sure Phaedra does it too. The real existing sexism is manifested by inequality of salaries and rights, by stoning-death for adulteresses, by clitoral circumcision in Africa, by far bader topics than sex-fashion. But I agree with you totally in this point: quote:Sexuality is over-valued nowadays. -------------------- Slartucker: * facepalm facepalm facepalm * Dikiyoba: Are you unconscious yet? Posts: 1420 | Registered: Wednesday, October 2 2002 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4445
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written Thursday, April 14 2005 12:34
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I noticed. You just seemed awfully annoyed by a criticism of the present. Let me rephrase myself. TM has not looked to the past for a positive example. No one is looking for a return to the good old days of Victorianism. [ Thursday, April 14, 2005 12:36: Message edited by: PoD person ] Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |