Concentrated Linearity Debate (New Voices Welcome to Participate and Vote)

Error message

Deprecated function: implode(): Passing glue string after array is deprecated. Swap the parameters in drupal_get_feeds() (line 394 of /var/www/pied-piper.ermarian.net/includes/common.inc).

Pages

Author	Topic: Concentrated Linearity Debate (New Voices Welcome to Participate and Vote)
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Saturday, March 5 2005 15:01 Profile Homepage #0 Linearity and non-linearity are regions in a spectrum. Linear scenarios often have a strong story that they force the player to adhere to, with little to no choice about what direction their character moves. Good examples include An Apology, Emulations, and Chains. Non-linear scenarios generally give the player many choices about what to do, and they focus on providing a world for exploration and means to advance the party's status through a series of missions and fights. Generally, there are many different roads to take and several different endings. Examples of this include the Adventurer's Club series and the Geneforge games. The poll asks anyone who will reply which method they prefer. Generally everyone agrees that a completely interactive scenario with a good plot that allows for almost all possible party actions would be the best scenario, but asking that of designers is expecting a lot. This is a continuation of discussion in many threads. All discussion in the following threads is continued here. Article - bjlhct2 On Scenario Design pt 1: Linearity In Defense of Pure Linearity: a Case Study Nature Of The Beast: Why Game-Style Nonlinearity Just Doesn't Work In Blades Linear Scenarios v. Non-Linear Scenarios: The doctrine of time = money Article -- Non-Linearity: The Doctrine of Causality The first replies are encouraged to heavily quote the previous threads. Thank you. Poll Information This poll contains 1 question(s). 45 user(s) have voted. You may not view the results of this poll without voting. function launch_voter () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=vote;pollid=AidQJvqSGFNa"); return true; } // end launch_voter function launch_viewer () { launch_window("http://www.ironycentral.com/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=poll;d=view;pollid=AidQJvqSGFNa"); return true; } // end launch_viewer function launch_window (url) { preview = window.open( url, "preview", "width=550,height=300,toolbar=no,location=no,directories=no,status,menubar=no,scrollbars,resizable,copyhistory=no" ); window.preview.focus(); return preview; } // end launch_window -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
-silver- Cartographer Member # 995	written Saturday, March 5 2005 15:13 Profile #1 Remember when quoting, that I racked up three of what the CoC calls "minor infractions" over the past 24 hours, but quoting them repeatedly is still an infraction itself and someone has racked up more than I did just by repeatedly quoting me. also, calling people moron or stupid is "belittling" them and a _major_ infraction. Posts: 206 \| Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Saturday, March 5 2005 15:15 Profile Homepage #2 People should let the moderators and admins do their job instead of throwing the CoC at things they don't like. Just refrain from personal attacks, and you'll be fine. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Saturday, March 5 2005 15:15 Profile Homepage #3 I think this debate has outlived its usefulness. Expressing personal preferences is one thing, but everyone's already had ample opportunity to do that. As for its potential role in guiding designers, people who want designers to change the way they design, despite having released no scenarios of their own, have little credibility in my eyes. The best thing any individual can do for the scenario design community is contribute by designing. Criticism has its place, but I'd rather see one decent scenario than a dozen articles. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Saturday, March 5 2005 15:16 Profile Homepage #4 quote: Originally written by DreamGuy: And I stand behind my statement that Kelandon's choices on how he developed his scenario were pretentious, ego-driven, and not all that good. This is further shown by the way he responded to criticisms. (Things like refusing to add an option to turn off the cutscenes because he considers them the best part and so forth.) I did mention that I'd add this feature if a few people responded that they wanted it (here, if you missed it), but no one did. Your feedback is not the only response I've gotten about the scenario. Many of the responses from other people do not match your criticisms. That is one limiting factor on how much of your suggestions I'm actually going to implement. The offer stands open: if more than one or two people want me to add this, I will. Post here or PM me or whatever. But DreamGuy, why are you insulting me? I'm just making scenarios. How can that possibly be as harmful as you make it sound? Even a bad scenario is a positive contribution to the community. [ Saturday, March 05, 2005 15:16: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
The Immortal BANNED Member # 4	written Saturday, March 5 2005 15:18 Profile Homepage #5 An option to get rid of the cutscenes? You've got my signature on that one. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
I'll Steal Your Toast Agent Member # 2210	written Saturday, March 5 2005 18:18 Profile #6 It is not the linearity of the scenario that bothers me so much. It is when you do not get to make small choices that affect the final outcome as you go along in the quest. All scenarios should have some variety of endings even if they are linear. It makes it more interesting. Also small decisions keep you immersed in the scenario. Both Bahssikava and Canopy were linear. I liked both of them. I did not like having my characters stating opinions. It would have been better if leader stated the opinions and the bad guys expressed the opposite. The thing which Bahssikava did was add in a few elements like choosing to learn the ancient slith language or end the scenario early at the gates which made it somewhat more varied. Canopy was better in that it had a few optional side quests. Specifically, the tigers lair which is one of my favorite dungeons ever. I also liked the goblins lair. I find the addition of optional detail can make a scenario much better. Things like petting a dog, curing a mans sickness, or delivering a package. Optional small detail quests are often missing from a linear scenario. If a linear scenario has choices which affect the ending, minor details that add spice, and open ended sidequests it would be just as good as any non-linear scenario in my opinion. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 \| Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00
Dahak Infiltrator Member # 148	written Saturday, March 5 2005 18:28 Profile #7 Is the end or the way to the end more important? Why do ends need to be different. If all paths lead to same destination then no need exists for seperate endings. Personally, I always cared about how I get there then how it ends. It makes things much more interesting. Another point. Why should the party be so influental? -------------------- My ego is bigger than yours. Posts: 480 \| Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
PoD person Shock Trooper Member # 4445	written Saturday, March 5 2005 19:37 Profile #8 Dahak, I shall quote you a piece of my article, I addressed that, actually: quote: Firstly, despite my characters' importance to the story, and the other characters' preoccupation with them, I didn't feel like they were the center of the world. TM made Canopy seem, to me, like a living, breathing reality, with a dynamic existence beyond that of the party, and he did so by limiting me, not empowering me. My characters couldn't go everywhere or do everything, and their actions weren't the be-all and end-all of causality in the game world. These touches made Canopy more real for me than any amount of choices ever could have made Geneforge-land. And another: quote: Although the end of Canopy was more passive than the first, say, three quarters, this did not bother me because the events in the cutscenes were both a culmination of the drama that the narrative had built up to that point, and evidence that a lot was going on around the party; again, the world of Canopy existed outside of the challenges that my party faced and the actions they took. It was a case study about Canopy and why I liked it, obviously. Thuryl, a scenario is a service beyond my present capabilities, unfortunately. I felt a need to point out what a designer has done well, and why I liked it, as opposed to calling the community pretentious and egotistical. Hence, my article. Kelandon, the story is the best part of your scenario, and it is developed in the cutscenes. That said, I'd like to be able to turn them off, just for when I have to reload from a save before a cutscene I've already seen. Posts: 293 \| Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
The Immortal BANNED Member # 4	written Saturday, March 5 2005 19:51 Profile Homepage #9 (PoD Person, I cannot help but notice that you like Canopy and Bahssikava very much- considering this, why not rate them at the Comprehensive BoA Scenario Rankings forum at the Lyceum: http://p080.ezboard.com/fthelyceumfrm32 ) -------------------- * Posts: 6936 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Saturday, March 5 2005 19:56 Profile Homepage #10 Okay, I'll add the "skip scene" feature. It'll delay the release of the final version of Bahssikava until, er, next weekend at the earliest and the following one at the latest, but I'll do it. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Ash Lael E Equals MC What!!!! Member # 5491	written Saturday, March 5 2005 20:02 Profile Homepage #11 The Adventurer's Club scenarios are not non-linear. While AC1 and AC3 have a lot of incidental, non-essential stuff (to a point where it can be difficult to find the central, linear storyline), the main path doesn't vary to any real extent. Did you ever finish any of the AC scenarios, Drake? -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 \| Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
ef Guardian Member # 2476	written Saturday, March 5 2005 20:28 Profile #12 quote: Originally written by Dahak: Is the end or the way to the end more important? You touch that old question: What is more important in life, the goals you set for yourself or how you move towards them. Or both? Personally I don't believe that there can ever be an easy answer. Not only because of individual preferences, also because the answer is heavily dependant on and changes with circumstances. If a scenario's author chooses a linear style, then having few options is part of the story he's going to give a life of its own, and it doesn't make sense to me to ask him to please tell a different tale. Of course the same is true vice versa. Or for a mix of both. -------------------- Polaris Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done Rache's A3 Site, original version Posts: 1828 \| Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Ash Lael E Equals MC What!!!! Member # 5491	written Saturday, March 5 2005 20:54 Profile Homepage #13 Exactly, it's the designer's perogative (sp?). Personally, I'd like to see experimentation and new ideas come into play rather than a battle between "Linear" and "Non-linear". One of the ideas behind Areni, for example, was to create a kind of macro-linearity (the story progresses in the same way), but still allow a great degree of variance on the detail level. Depending on what recipes you choose to rely on, what ingredients you use up, where you go, etc, the combat experience can be wildly different for different people, but still of a consistently high quality. One of my beta-testers said a certain recipe was only slightly useful, while it was the main staple for another. In other words, I tried to create a situation where the scenario would allow for big changes on a level that mattered to the player, dictated by the player's actions. I think it succeeded, though most people don't appreciate it, since they only play through once. :P But that's the kind of thing I'd like to see more of, blurring the two concepts in interesting ways. Roots is an example of a scenario that does this purely in storyline terms, though I can't really expand on that without ruining it for someone. -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 \| Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Sunday, March 6 2005 02:51 Profile Homepage #14 The ACs are, IMO, more about the immersive world than the main storyline, which is why I classify them as non-linear. Just because it has an overarching storyline doesn't mean that it is a 'linear scenario'. They give plenty of options to the party alongside the main plot. Something else I've said before is that in a good linear scenario, the party doesn't want to do anything beyond where the author is pushing them. I never felt like I needed to sell items in An Apology, which is a good thing because there were no stores. I went along with the direction of the scenario because it made perfect sense. [ Sunday, March 06, 2005 02:54: Message edited by: Drakefyre ] -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Namothil Infiltrator Member # 169	written Sunday, March 6 2005 04:34 Profile #15 Gah. Take a break for a few months, and come back to find this. Well, here's my two cents, for whatever they're worth. Please excuse any incoherency in this post - I'm not quite fully awake at the moment. I do not see that there is anything inherently superior in either type of scenario. That said, there are variations in the difficulty of producing a good scenario of either type. In a medium like BoA, linear scenarios will be easier to write well than non-linear scenarios. Quite simply, the non-linear scenario will require significantly greater scripting effort to deal with all paths the designer chooses to implement. (Note: Not all possible paths - that's not going to happen, unless you make a ridiculously small scenario.) Given this, and assuming a designer equally talented in the production of linear and non-linear scenarios, more scenarios of a given quality can be produced in a given time if those scenarios are linear. Since I strongly prefer to have a greater variety of scenarios, I'd have to say that I prefer designers to produce linear ones. (Note: The preceding assumption is obviously not true, however, it is my opinion that designers are generally better at making linear scenarios than non-linear ones. If you happen to be an exception, then by all means, make non-linear scenarios. Assuming that they really are good, I'll enjoy them just as much as the linear ones.) Posts: 422 \| Registered: Tuesday, October 16 2001 07:00
I'll Steal Your Toast Agent Member # 2210	written Sunday, March 6 2005 05:01 Profile #16 Think of the words "replay value". A scenario without any choices, without details to look for, and without optional sidequests loses a lot of replay value. Having more than one ending creates a situation where the player is more likely to play through more than once. Thus it gets tested more and is more likely to have a better scenario when released. Also the sidequests and options create an atmosphere which asks a few questions What if? Did I miss? What would have happened if I did? I happen to like this. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 \| Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Sunday, March 6 2005 05:33 Profile Homepage #17 Why is replay value so important, though? Beta-testers have to play through a scenario many times anyway. If you want two scenarios in one, why not just play two scenarios? -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
DreamGuy Warrior Member # 5415	written Sunday, March 6 2005 05:55 Profile #18 This whole topic is a lost cause, because of the large number of people who apparently just don't get the basics of storytelling or game design. Like the following outrageous statement: quote: "It is IMPOSSIBLE to develop ANY solid atmosphere in a strictly nonlinear work" No, maybe you aren't capable of it or don't want to be bothered, but that's a long, long ways from being impossible. It clearly is not impossible because other designers on other games do it all the time. If the person who posted this passes as a well-respected designer on these boards, it's no wonder the community is in such a sorry shape. You've got the blind leading the blind. Then we got: quote: "Why should the party be so influental?" Because they are the main characters! The main characters in any story are what the story goes around. A book in which the characters aren't influential and some plot device comes from out of nowhere to make things happen is considered to very poor writing. Perhaps you're familiar with complaints about using a Deus ex machina in a story? If not, perhaps you can imagine how frustrated the star player in a sports game must feel if he's benched and forced to watch everyone else play the game he's supposed to be playing? In a RPG game, the main characters have to be even more influential, because they are directly controlled by the player. The player can't just sit back and watch, he has to make an effort to move the PCs around. If they have no influence and just watch while other people do things (and gab about all the great people they met and all the things they did) you are basically turning the player into a bunch of ineffectual nobodies, which spoils the entire point of these games. Which leads directly into Kel's statement: quote: "If so, I challenge you on A: how could Bahs have been made non-linear without destroying the story?" Considering that you ignored everything I suggested by email and ridiculed the entire concept of letting the players have choices, I'm not going to waste my time making a bunch of suggestions you'll just insult and ignore again. But the basic thing here is that you are all worried about your story (background to all the sliths, some vague mysterious with Prophet that we are supposed to worry about but not be able to do anything with during the game) that you don't even consider the PC's story, which is what these kind of games are supopsed to be about. All you have is your cut scenes, repetitive details about the backstory and unsympathetic characters who order the players down tedious fight sequences with no way of making any substantive decisions, being at all creative, or heading off in any direction other than the one the great designer god from the sky continuously points his finger toward. And, again, I already gave you tons of suggestions which you summarily and snottily ignored, so to just now "challenge" me on it is really quite hypocritical. But then vast majority of the posts I've seen from people defending linearity have been more about posturing and ego than actually discussing storytelling or game design, so there's little hope that anything being talked about here will help in any way. Posts: 62 \| Registered: Thursday, January 20 2005 08:00
The Almighty Doer of Stuff Shaper Member # 73	written Sunday, March 6 2005 06:24 Profile #19 EDIT: Thought better of it. [ Sunday, March 06, 2005 06:24: Message edited by: The Almighty Doer of Stuff ] -------------------- My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art The Lyceum - The Headquarters of the Blades designing community The Louvre - The Blades of Avernum graphics database Alexandria - The Blades of Exile Scenario database BoE Webring - Self explanatory Polaris - Free porn here Odd Todd - Fun for the unemployed (and everyone else too) They Might Be Giants - Four websites for one of the greatest bands in existance -------------------- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Posts: 2957 \| Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Sunday, March 6 2005 06:52 Profile Homepage #20 DreamGuy, the only suggestion that had to do with "linearity" that you made in your e-mails was that I add a sidequest or something in the Temple of the Goddess. While I suppose I could do that, the scenario would still, overall, be linear. However, you made a number of suggestions about giving the player more options with regard to individual combats (making it possible to uncharm the charmed character in the drake lord-altar fight in Tunnels, for instance). If that's the sort of linearity that you're talking about, then you might want to make that clear, because I don't think many people think of that as linearity per se. (Those suggestions won't be implemented either, because the majority of comments that I've heard are that tactical combat arises from taking away the most obvious options and making the player think of something new, and that tactical combat is good, so I don't want to ruin it for other people just to satisfy one player.) But anyway, we're very early in the stages of BoA scenario development. Most of the scenarios can't help but be linear, because they're first efforts, and it's harder within the Blades medium to make a non-linear scenario than a linear one. TM and I aren't likely to make non-linear scenarios any time soon, but others may. Shyguy may make a scenario for BoA, and his are in a very different style than mine or TM's. So if you want a non-linear scenario, wait a little while and one will come out. Or, even better, make one yourself. You'll find that the bottom line here is scenarios made. People will perk up and pay attention if you start releasing quality scenarios. Otherwise, you're just another newbie. EDIT: You know, DreamGuy, having thought about it more, I don't see how Jeff's scenarios could be considered any better as far as linearity goes, except for ASR, which the community likes by far the most. VoDT is pretty much linear, and ZKR is, too. Do you consider those to be less linear than anything else released by a third-party designer? If so, how? [ Sunday, March 06, 2005 07:20: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Sunday, March 6 2005 07:36 Profile Homepage #21 The party are not the main characters in the world, however. Why should they be? Why should six (or four) level 10 characters be able to avert the war between giant nations? They are just caught up in small parts of the war, unable to influence main events but still able to do things. quote: But then vast majority of the posts I've seen from people defending linearity have been more about posturing and ego than actually discussing storytelling or game design, so there's little hope that anything being talked about here will help in any way. Posturing and ego? I defend linearity because I believe that linear scenarios are better scenarios. I play Blades for the stories and the challenge. I like tactical combat, and I like puzzles. I like things to be thrown at me in a new way, and I like to be swept up in a story and have the scenario forcefully move me along. It's always nice if people acknowledge things that I've done. But that doesn't necessarily make things linear or nonlinear. It just makes the scenario better or worse. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
I'll Steal Your Toast Agent Member # 2210	written Sunday, March 6 2005 07:37 Profile #22 Replay value is a cure for boredom. It creates greater immersion. I am guessing that some beta testers quit or stop going through a scenario if there aren't things to search for. They simple get bored at too much repetition. Part of this game is exploration. Finding things which are hidden or new is one of the fun points of the game. Also, there is a decent time between releases of new scenarios. It extends the life of a particular scenario if it can be played more than once. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 \| Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00
Dahak Infiltrator Member # 148	written Sunday, March 6 2005 07:38 Profile #23 quote: Originally written by DreamGuy: quote: Originally written by Dahak: "Why should the party be so influental?" Because they are the main characters! The main characters in any story are what the story goes around. A book in which the characters aren't influential and some plot device comes from out of nowhere to make things happen is considered to very poor writing. Perhaps you're familiar with complaints about using a Deus ex machina in a story? If not, perhaps you can imagine how frustrated the star player in a sports game must feel if he's benched and forced to watch everyone else play the game he's supposed to be playing? In a RPG game, the main characters have to be even more influential, because they are directly controlled by the player. The player can't just sit back and watch, he has to make an effort to move the PCs around. If they have no influence and just watch while other people do things (and gab about all the great people they met and all the things they did) you are basically turning the player into a bunch of ineffectual nobodies, which spoils the entire point of these games. Not really true. A lot of stories have the main character pretty influental, and they quite frankly stink. The character has too much influence. Other stories have main characters with less influence, or almost none, and they rock. Good stories, and by extension good RPG's, make the player seem as if they are involved. I do not mean for designers to make people ineffectual nobodies. The players can try, and try, and try, but sometimes, you just can't win. -------------------- My ego is bigger than yours. Posts: 480 \| Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
PoD person Shock Trooper Member # 4445	written Sunday, March 6 2005 08:30 Profile #24 Why I liked Canopy, actually. Posts: 293 \| Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00