Palm Sunday

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AuthorTopic: Palm Sunday
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
Profile #50
Not to be a pedant (LIES), but I always thought it was spelt zeitgeist. Since I've never had occasion to use the word however and am too lazy to go downstairs and get a dictionary, I'm more than likely wrong. Not that it matters.

I don't want to see Christmas and Easter de-commercialised. I want to see them de-Christianised. I speak as someone who is half-Christian, half agnostic trying to follow the teachings of Jesus.

When you consider that Christmas and Easter were both intended to replace pagan customs and its generally believed that Jesus was actually born in spring, there's no real reason why the two couldn't be combined. It was 2000 years ago, after all, so the exact date is utterly inconsequential.

Christmas buoys up the spirits of many during winter when one can leave the house in darkness in the morning and return in darkness at night. Bit it needn't be religious.

I'd like to see Easter given a set date (which would by the way help to regularise school timetables) whilst a Christian Christmas/Easter would take place at the same time of Passover as one would expect. Incidentally, what is the original Hebrew name for that?

If you want to increase the numbers of Christians, however, there's one simple solution. Take the bits from the OT which tie in most with the NT and are most interesting (parts of Isaiah stay, Ecclesiastes to show tolerance to other viewpoints, selected Proverbs and Psalms etc.) Any bits which are more relevant to 9th century BC Israel/Judah should be consigned to bible scholars.

Some provision could be made for preserving verses at random. It wouldn't make sense, but it would confuse the hell out of the sort of people who claim the bible predicted Rabin's assassination.

Then once the supernumerary parts have been ritually burnt and sown with salt or whatever highly insensitive ritual is deemed appropriate (NB I am NOT serious) you should turn to the NT.

Matthew is 90% identical to Luke. That can almost all go. Take what you will from John. Sift through Luke with a fine tooth comb to find the stuff which is essential to being a Christian. The rest can go. Which, by the way, removes the need for Christmas anyway.

Add what you're left with to Mark. One nice simple gospel. Then publish an unabridged version taking all four gospels and the apocryphal ones (including gospel of Judas Iscariot, because I happen to think the concept is rather interesting) seperately.

Back to the original bible. I won't say what to take from Acts and the Letters. Try to get rid of anything misogynistic, racist, or clearly intended for Nazarene Christians/2nd century Roman citizens.

Take a huge cocktail of hallucinogenic drugs. Write whatever comes into your head and swap it for Revelations. If you're lucky, you may get away with it.

Voila- a new bible. Market like those Beginners' Guides to Zen they sell at the counters in bookshops.

Watch every Christian denomination in the world combine to call for the burning of the authors at the stake. Isn't togetherness lovely?
Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #51
Zeitgeist/ Zeit=time Geist=spirit

I must own, I don't know what Passover is. I'm not familiar with that expression.
I always thought of the hebrew 'Easter' as the Passah time.

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Polaris
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
Profile #52
Passover is the Jewish festival celebrating the escape of the Israelites from Egypt. More specifically, celebrating the Angel of Death flying over killing the firstborn of each Egyptian family, but leaving the Jews as they had painted lamb's blood on their doors.

The Last Supper was a Passover meal.
Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #53
In Hebrew, the holiday's name is Pesach, and it does pretty much translate literally into "pass over." I always think the name is a bit odd, since the actually killing of the firstborn was really only a way to get a point across. The real purpose of the holiday is to celebrate freedom. And it's one of the three major agricultural festivals, but that part has been lost over the years.

—Alorael, who likes Passover as one of the holidays where you're guaranteed a good meal. Then you eat lots of tasteless matzah for a week, but you do get one good feast with family before that.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #54
Thank you for explaining. Pesach is Passah where I live and Matze wafers are not tasteless, not at all.

[ Sunday, April 27, 2003 08:13: Message edited by: ef ]

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Polaris
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #55
No matter how it's transliterated, it's the same in Hebrew and probably in pronunciation. And if matzah where you live is the same as all other matzah I've seen, it can best be described as a large cracker (or cardboard) and badly needs any kind of condiments to make it palatable. And it is impossible to make into a sandwich or anything else because it is so brittle.

—Alorael, who can't say that he is a great fan of matzah. Or couldn't you tell?
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #56
Ever put it in the oven and let some cheese melt on it? Mmh.

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Polaris
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
Profile #57
Uh... first of all, matzah rules.

Second of all, are all of you, or at least most of you, talking specifically to get me really pissed off? Alec, you have neversaid you were Christian, in any form, although you often imply that you are atheist. Go ahead, find some post where you told me, or just implied, that you are Christian. I don't need neon signs, just the three simple words, "I am Christian."

Now, I don't think that all Christians have to be the same, or anything remotely like that, but there are a few pillars of faith, such as, oh, belief in the existance of God for one... which Alec has always argued against, at least whenever I talk to him. I know he likes to argue; I've noticed that I do, too, but at least I support other people when they share my beliefs, and if he does believe in God, then at least he could've said that.

Second, Christianity is so named for Christ, meaning he must believe in Christ. See previous paragraph, substituting the word "Jesus" for "God." And I guess you could do that pick and choose belief thing, which is fine, but if you don't believe in Christ you're not Christian.

Third, I am not the "second type," and I despise the second type, people who just use God's forgiveness as an excuse to do whatever they wish. I lie occasionally, and that is this only sin I have ever committed, as far as I know.

Why would Alec think I am not very Christian? My hatred of homosexuality? I'm sure he may have some reason; I don't claim to be a perfect Christian, but my beliefs do adhere pretty closely to the teachings of the Bible. I try to be nice, and I actually do have an open mind, believe it or not; I can look at any argument and see and understand the reasoning on both sides, so I'm not just a biased fool.

I know that many holidays have pagan elements, and I accept this; at least we're not burning our children in wicker baskets and asking horned gods to help us kill our enemies. No matter how it started, it's a Christian holiday, and it's getting less and less Christian as time passes.

I agree with your first sentence in that post after Alorael's, Alec. I do think that children should be taught faith; if they find some other religion later in life, they shouldn't have a problem switching over. They might, but they shouldn't. If it's brainwashing, then so is everything else their parents teach them whn they're young. SHould we grow up with completely blank minds, and learn only from our very own experiences? I really hope that's not what you're suggesting...

I have one last question. Why is it bad for people to believe in God only to support their own actions and thoughts, but OK for them to celebrate a holiday while thinking nothing of God? That doesn't make sense. It just annoys me to see people who hardly know who Jesus is celebrating Christmas, because they like presents. I mean, go ahead and give presents on Decemeber 25 all you want, but don't say it's in celebration of Jesus's birth unless it really is!

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And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it.
-The Last Pendragon

TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL

Les forum de la chance.

In case of emergency, break glass.
Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00
Triad Mage Banned Veteran
Member # 165
Profile Homepage #58
IMAGE(http://mitglied.lycos.de/TicoFluck/wilhelm/wilh1.jpg)

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desperance -- je me souviens
arena -- et je me souviens de vous
Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00
Triad Mage Banned Veteran
Member # 165
Profile Homepage #59
To be a little more relevant:
[Shortened for browser sanity.]

[ Tuesday, April 29, 2003 15:56: Message edited by: Alorael ]

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desperance -- je me souviens
arena -- et je me souviens de vous
Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2669
Profile Homepage #60
How does a Quaker come up with autofascism?
(sorry, wrong board...)

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Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #61
It depends on what matzah you get - egg matzah is more flavorful, but I'm not sure if it's all pareve.

And I must have matzah with butter, peanut butter (not during passover), cheese, or in matzah brei. And I now have four boxes leftover, so I'll be having a lot of the last for a few weeks.

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
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Drakefyre's Demesne - Vahnatai Did Do It
desperance.net - We're Everywhere
The Arena - God Will Sort The Dead
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You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Babelicious
Member # 39
Profile Homepage #62
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Dagot:
Alec, you have neversaid you were Christian, in any form, although you often imply that you are atheist.
He's never implied that he's atheist, and it's actually none of your business. He's told you now.
...belief in the existance of God for one... which Alec has always argued against...
Really? He's always said he believed in God to me.
Second, Christianity is so named for Christ, meaning he must believe in Christ.
He does. I find it silly, but different strokes, I guess.
Third, I am not the "second type," and I despise the second type, people who just use God's forgiveness as an excuse to do whatever they wish. I lie occasionally, and that is this only sin I have ever committed, as far as I know.
I'm dying over here.

Why would Alec think I am not very Christian? My hatred
If you were talking about me, this would be it. Note that I snipped off two words that unnecessarily narrowed down the statement.
but my beliefs do adhere pretty closely to the teachings of the Bible.
The Bible != Jesus.
I try to be nice, and I actually do have an open mind, believe it or not; I can look at any argument and see and understand the reasoning on both sides, so I'm not just a biased fool.
Anyone who's read your arguments on the Crossfire topic knows this is laughable. You dismiss almost every statement anyone else makes offhand. Hell, even when Alec says he's Christian, you continue to argue it.

No matter how it started, it's a Christian holiday, and it's getting less and less Christian as time passes.
Relies on the concept that Christian tradition is good. Post-Paul Christian tradition is to kill Jews, too.

SHould we grow up with completely blank minds, and learn only from our very own experiences? I really hope that's not what you're suggesting...
Funny; that's the very basis of my spiritual beliefs. Although cut out the learning part and keep the blank minds.

I have one last question. Why is it bad for people to believe in God... [snip whining]
Oh, get a life!

Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
Profile #63
I do not say you sacrifice virgins to Beelzebub on a blood stained altar, David, but if you say that lying is the only sin you've ever committed, then you either don't recognise some things accepted as sins as sins, you're not very observant or you're not stimulating your mind enough. There's a good argument using the Pauline epistles to claim that your denials that Alec is Christian are sinful.

Naturally, this depends on age to a large extent. Seven year olds and (to a lesser extent) eighty-seven year olds are both unlikely to be frequently guilty of the sin of lust. But if we're going to get dogmatic about it, Scorp has made good arguments that the Western lifestyle is gluttony (look around, I think they may be in Crossfire) and if nothing else, there's always pride.

I'd opine that 2 Peter tells us to beware of false prophets, so I happen to believe that when you say you follow the teachings of the Bible, you're more than likely to have fallen into this hole, but that's just my strange heretical views and twisting of the words to my own ends.

No malice intended, but it's not an assertion which I think you can support.
Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
Triad Mage Banned Veteran
Member # 165
Profile Homepage #64
quote:
Originally posted by Ooklah the Moc:
How does a Quaker come up with autofascism?
(sorry, wrong board...)

He looks both ways and -- wait, wrong punchline...

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desperance -- je me souviens
arena -- et je me souviens de vous
Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #65
Actually, David, Christianity has meant a number of things over the centuries. There are those who believe Jesus was God on Earth, those who believe he was the son of God and wholly divine, those who think he was partially divine and partially human, and those who think he was a human created by God as the messiah. If you take the last view, the inherent imperfection of humans gives you some leeway in interpreting for yourself.

—Alorael, who would like to point out that one of the Ten Commandments is impossible to follow. "Thou shalt not covet," number 10, limits your mind. That's pretty much impossible, since jealousy is a biologically-implanted imperative. Even if you don't believe in evolution, it's hard to say that you could completely free yourself from wanting anything.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Agent
Member # 798
Profile Homepage #66
I hate capitalism some times. I don't like the way corparations turn something sacred like Easter and Christmass into a product.

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Look Ma, I'm banned!
Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
Profile #67
If you'd actually read other posts, rather than just posting what appear to be random platitudes from a slightly unbalanced philosopher, you'd notice that there's a good argument that Easter and Christmas shouldn't be sacred, particularly as it was already stolen by another corporation (of a kind, the Church) from religion (the Roman pantheon.)
Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
Agent
Member # 798
Profile Homepage #68
I'm sorry but Easter and Christmass should be sacred. Whoever said that Christmass and Easter shouldn't be sacred probily hated Mother Theresa.

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Look Ma, I'm banned!
Posts: 1046 | Registered: Friday, March 22 2002 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #69
Hated Mother Theresa? Why?

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Polaris
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Triad Mage Banned Veteran
Member # 165
Profile Homepage #70
*whips out a Burger King crown and a crayon*
*scribbles something on the inverse side, turns it inside out*
*crowns JF O'Reilly Junior*

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desperance -- je me souviens
arena -- et je me souviens de vous
Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00
For Carnage, Apply Within
Member # 95
Profile #71
Have you ever gotten a haircut or eaten shrimp, David? If memory serves, those things are forbidden by the same chapter of Leviticus (possibly Deuteronomy) that decries homosexuality. There's "living by the teachinfs of the Bible" for you.

[ Tuesday, April 29, 2003 15:54: Message edited by: [Sarachim] ]

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We were once Mao
Posts: 567 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00
Triad Mage
Member # 7
Profile Homepage #72
Care to give explanations to back up your posts, JF?

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"At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander
====
Drakefyre's Demesne - Vahnatai Did Do It
desperance.net - We're Everywhere
The Arena - God Will Sort The Dead
====
You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse!
Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 2870
Profile #73
Christmas and Easter are obiviously commercialized because everyone wants to make a buck.

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All your base are belong to us!!!!
http://people.cornell.edu/pages/slp29/ayb.html
Posts: 138 | Registered: Saturday, April 12 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 496
Profile #74
actually JF, some people are of the opinion thast Agnes Bordescu (Mother Theresa) wasn't a very nice person. She was great pals with Emva Hoxa, the demented Albanian dictator, for a start...

Is 'eating shrimp' slang for some sort of perviness? And are those the words of the King James version? "Thou shalt not lie with a shrimp as if it were a wo/man for it is abomination" etc...
Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00

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