Crossfire

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AuthorTopic: Crossfire
Infiltrator
Member # 2628
Profile Homepage #125
I hate to be the one to break your rose-coloured glasses IMAGE(frown000.gif)

You're right about the lack of access to quality education ... but that's only part of the story. Sadly, children from welfare dependent families often find it difficult to break out of the poverty cycle because they don't know any different. All their lives they've had welfare dependent parents, friends, neighbours, etc. Often nobody in their personal circle of acquaintances has modelled anything other than welfare dependence. It takes a lot of courage to be different or do something different to everyone you've ever known (such as being the first kid in your street or family to attempt tertiary study). Creating educational opportunities is a step in the right direction, but more needs to be done so that these kids realise they do have an alternative to welfare/poverty and that they can make a success of it.

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We meet and part now over all the world;
we, the lost company,
take hands together in the night, forget
the night in our brief happiness, silently.
-- Judith Wright

My website
Posts: 512 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00
Warrior
Member # 2893
Profile #126
Oh, I wholeheartedly agree with you Kyna. That is why I mentioned the "rose colored glasses" as I know there is much, much more to the problems. As a society we have "created" this problem. Welfare families are essentially stuck in the same neighborhoods (usually considered the "bad side" of town) surrounded by like families. Years of this have shattered hopes and replaced them with merely visions of "this is how life is". There would have to be a dramatic push over time to restore these hopes and dreams and recreate in the young, through better education and better governmental services, that drive to be better, to be more, and to rise above. The first years (probably) would be hard but once people did start "breaking the cycle" they would become examples and others would see the possibilities. It is depressing that in many areas the neighborhood "idol" that has achieved much, as evidenced by fancy cars, jewelry etc, is actually the drug pusher, pimp, or other criminal.

I know you have ideas too. I've seen your profile and can see you are on the front lines. You know of this firsthand and you probably can agree that governments actually invest barely enough to keep essential programs afloat forcing those that depend on help to be pushed even further behind.

I guess the major hurdle, the biggest jump, and the most important facet of this is that more people need to begin caring about their fellow men and more than just a casual donation here or there. We need to really roll up our sleeves and get the job done. There is more than enough in this world, especially with current technologies, that there really ought not be these social problems.

[ Wednesday, May 07, 2003 02:57: Message edited by: Felwynne ]
Posts: 97 | Registered: Friday, April 18 2003 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 87
Profile Homepage #127
For good social change, there has to be more than just interest for oneself, but that is what American Society is geared towards. So as a good friend of mine once said:

WE ARE SCREW!

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Tip of the Day: #13 Stand clear the closing door.

That's treason.
(THNIK)(Peculiar James, FP productions co, inc)
Posts: 816 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00
Warrior
Member # 2870
Profile #128
I whole-heartedly agree. But I don't think the government cares about those who are on welfare- as long as they don't riot or rebel or anything. The government is giving a pathetic amount of money to pacify the welfare recepients. How can one live on a few hundred dollars a week?

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All your base are belong to us!!!!
http://people.cornell.edu/pages/slp29/ayb.html
Posts: 138 | Registered: Saturday, April 12 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 496
Profile #129
Sell drugs, obviously. I actually saw an anthropology analysing this aspect of the US underground economy, so even the anthropologists are in on it!
Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
Profile #130
The benefit system is screwed up beyond belief. Here in Britain, I get the same amount of benefit for my diabetes as an adult asylum seeker does per week (actually, 60p more.) That's not to say that my benefits should be cut, but I won't need to use them for quite a while and they'd be better replaced with money as and when needed.

Benefits tend to be a narrow line between keeping people fed and encouraging them to work. Although to be honest, I don't see why that has to be done. If a scoiety can get by with fewer jobs but still pay a living wage to those who don't work, I don't see a problem with that.
Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #131
quote:
Originally posted by Rantallion:
If a scoiety can get by with fewer jobs but still pay a living wage to those who don't work, I don't see a problem with that.
*applauds*

The one problem that just about every economic system has in common is that it expects everyone to work. Keeping everyone employed by reducing the average worker's hours was fine back when most labour was unskilled or semi-skilled, but now it takes years of training to become competent in many fields, during which time one is essentially unproductive - and let's not forget the endless retraining needed to keep up with advancing technology. Expecting everyone to be able and willing to work is a wasteful strategy.

[ Monday, May 12, 2003 00:43: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 496
Profile #132
I blame Calvinism myself. Someone said we only need 10% of the jobs done in this society for everyone to still get along fine in terms of basic needs. I myself am a drone.
Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 1823
Profile Homepage #133
Calvinism?! As in everything is predetermined, and if you aren't predetermined to go to heaven you get tortured forever in hell?

Or is there a different sort of Calvinism?

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Riot Shields
Voodoo Economics
It's just business
Cattle prods
And the IMF

I trust I can rely on your vote
Posts: 530 | Registered: Sunday, September 1 2002 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #134
Calvinism had quite a bit more philosophy than that. X may be talking about it, although I don't know enough to agree or disagree. The Calvinists did virtually run Geneva for a while, though, so they must have had some economic ideas that worked well enough.

?Alorael, who would also say that a society that forces people to be at loose ends has failed. While America is workaholic, it is better to have something to occupy your time, especially if you enjoy it, than to just have a lifetime to kill. This can be replaced by model building or mountain climbing in some cases, but many people genuinely want to have a job.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 1506
Profile #135
Aren't Puritans a subset of Calvinism? Perhaps that's what X was refering to: the Puritan work ethic we love talking about.

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desperance.net -- Come on in, we don't bite. Well, I don't.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Saturday, July 13 2002 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #136
quote:
Originally posted by Alorael:
?Alorael, who would also say that a society that forces people to be at loose ends has failed. While America is workaholic, it is better to have something to occupy your time, especially if you enjoy it, than to just have a lifetime to kill. This can be replaced by model building or mountain climbing in some cases, but many people genuinely want to have a job.
I'm not so sure. Look at the South Sea Islanders - they changed from a warrior culture into a culture with large amounts of leisure time and no real concept of "work" as we think of it, and they seemed happy enough about it.

Not that I'm advocating some sort of noble-savage lifestyle; I'm just saying that the idea of employment is a relatively new one in human history. I agree that people need to feel useful, but in the long run, isn't the most useful thing to be happy and bring happiness to others? Seems a lot better than producing things nobody really wants and trying to convince people they need them by making them feel insecure about themselves.

[ Monday, May 12, 2003 14:26: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #137
I'm not so sure either, Alorael. Prefering to be a workaholic to a 'lifetime to kill'? Both seems rather sick to me. One as empty as the other. There is a difference between someone who works long hours, because s/he has feels a genuine attraction to what s/he does, and someone who works long hours to escape an otherwise empty life. Activity as an escape mechanism from the realization that you cannot relate to anything when you are not active?

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Polaris
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #138
I don't think that occupation necessarily has to be work. I just think that it is the responsibility of society (i.e. the government) to provide some activity in which people can involve themselves if they wish to. Having a large number of unhappy people with nothing to do is a good way to start revolutions.

?Alorael, who may be a tragic victim of the Puritan work ethic. But he doesn't like having absolutely nothing to do for very long periods of time, and he assumes he is not alone in that. It doesn't necessarily need to be work, but some chance to go out and socialize is nice, and there are many employments that give a satisfying sense of accomplishment.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 496
Profile #139
You got it. Calvinism had the implication that those that didn't work hard and become prosperous were damned. As to the supposed 'woes of idleness', I'd sooner choose how to fill my own days than have my boss tell me how to. At least any ensuing boredom would be self-inflicted.
Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00
This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
Profile #140
The need to work is a leftover from an agricultural society. Before that, man was probably much like any other animal, especially in more equatorial climes. When food or something else vital was needed, he worked. If not, he slept or rested.
Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00
Shaper
Member # 496
Profile #141
No doubt you've seen all the Sahlins stuff then. A mate of mine knows the Hazda pretty well and says a lot of the time goes on social interaction. Band societies are so much better at it than we are, even if not very industrious chaps.
Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00
Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
Profile Homepage #142
I'VE GOT A BIKE
YOU CAN RIDE IT IF YOU LIKE
IT'S GOT A BASKET
A BELL THAT RINGS AND THINGS
THAT MAKE IT LOOK GOOD
I'D GIVE IT TO YOU IF I COULD
BUT I BORROWED IT

YOU'RE THE KIND OF GIRL THAT FITS IN WITH MY WORLD
I'LL GIVE YOU ANYTHING, EVERYTHING, IF YOU WANT THINGS


I'VE GOT A CLOAK
IT'S A BIT OF A JOKE
THERE'S A TEAR ON THE FRONT
IT'S RED AND BLACK
I'VE HAD IT FOR MONTHS!!!
IF YOU THINK IT WOULD LOOK GOOD
THEN I GUESS IT SHOULD

YOU'RE THE KIND OF GIRL THAT FITS IN WITH MY WORLD
I'LL GIVE YOU ANYTHING, EVERYTHING, IF YOU WANT THINGS


I KNOW A MOUSE
AND HE HASN'T GOT A HOUSE
I DON'T KNOW WHY I CALL HIM GERALD
HE'S GETTING RATHER OLD
BUT HE'S A GOOD MOUSE

YOU'RE THE KIND OF GIRL THAT FITS IN WITH MY WORLD
I'LL GIVE YOU ANYTHING, EVERYTHING, IF YOU WANT THINGS


I'VE GOT A CLAN
OF GINGERBREAD MEN
HERE A MAN
THERE A MAN
LOTS OF GINGERBREAD MEN
TAKE A COUPLE IF YOU WISH
THEY'RE ON A DISH

YOU'RE THE KIND OF GIRL THAT FITS IN WITH MY WORLD
I'LL GIVE YOU ANYTHING, EVERYTHING, IF YOU WANT THINGS


...

I KNOW A ROOM
OF MUSICAL TUNES!!!
SOME RHYME!!
SOME CHING!!
MOST OF THEM ARE CLOCKWORK
LET'S GO INTO THE OTHER ROOM!!!
AND MAKE THEM WORK


[ Friday, May 21, 2004 15:11: Message edited by: Sir Psycho Custer ]

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AnamaFreak (3:59:56 AM): Shounen-ai to the MAX
Misogynism is the wave of the future,
but it sure pisses the womenfolk off.

Shocking, isn't it?
Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00
Shake Before Using
Member # 75
Profile #143
CAUGHT IN THE CROSSFIRE! OMG
Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00

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