Crossfire
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, April 30 2003 14:46
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But is it worse to be a miser and give only tiny amounts of money to worthy causes or to be overly generous while supporting the International Torture the Children Fund? The first is certainly better for the world, regardless of how you view it morally. I agree with HawkGirl that it is impossible to be selfless. If you do good, you do it only because you feel good about it. Even anonymous work or donations make you feel like you have done something good. If we didn't like that feeling, we wouldn't do it. Very few people would call themselves immoral, but many would be happy to accuse others because everyone's ideas are different. ?Alorael, who does not think anyone is born with a purpose. There will always be some things that you are good at, some that are more rewarding than others, and some that are hopeless, but nobody is every completely pidgeonholed. Everyone is given certain talents and traits from genes and upbringing, and it is up to each individual to find a good way to use them. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 39
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written Wednesday, April 30 2003 16:14
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If selfishness is immoral, I want no part in morality. -------------------- desperance.net - honestly, no biting. Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Thursday, May 1 2003 09:07
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I see selfishness as a gateway to morality, at least for some people. If people enjoy positive attention (which we all do, to a certain extent), then doing good things for the world is a way forward. Some people are moral through fear of God, some moral through love of the world. Some are moral through routine. I am moral through selfishness. -------------------- KazeArctica: "Imagine...wangs everywhere...and tentacles. Nothing but wangs and tentacles! And no pants!" Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 2264
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written Thursday, May 1 2003 14:51
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In a way what you're talking about selfishness, but I think what most people mean when they say selfish is somebody who doesn't care about anyone but themselves, or somebody who hurts other people in order to advance their own position. So really, helping people because it makes you feel good isn't selfish, at least not in my mind. Of course my mind doesn't seem to be on the same tangent as most of the world, so I might be wrong. :confused: -------------------- And the Glory of the Light did shine upon him. And the Peace of the Light did he give men. Binding nations to him. Making one of many. Yet the shards of hearts did give wounds. And what was once did come again -in fire and in storm splitting all in twain. For his peace... -for his peace... ... was the peace... ... was the peace... ... of the sword. And the Glory of the Light did shine upon him. Meane sol Ahelle Check out my Avernum 3 site. This one is incomplete, but better than the one here which is complete, sort of. Posts: 926 | Registered: Tuesday, November 19 2002 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Thursday, May 1 2003 16:24
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Yes, Alorael, and whatever they are best at, whatever they are happiest doing, that's what they're meant to do. I'm not saying everyone can only be happy doing one thing, in fact I think I said something about how you can have more than one "job"... -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2628
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written Thursday, May 1 2003 17:01
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I believe God gave us free will for a reason. So that we have the power to make choices about our lives. I don't believe we all have some set of tasks we are destined or preordained to do. A new-ager who believes in reincarnation might say that they chose to come back to this life to fulfil certain tasks, learn certain life lessons, etc. They believe in the argument you're putting forward, David. The destiny/fate argument seems more new age than Christian to me. -------------------- We meet and part now over all the world; we, the lost company, take hands together in the night, forget the night in our brief happiness, silently. -- Judith Wright My website Posts: 512 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, May 1 2003 17:35
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I agree with David. Joy and sorrow are the two 'chambers' of the heart. So whatever brings up joy involves your heart and is a good path to follow. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Friday, May 2 2003 15:42
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Actually, those first two sentences support my argument, Kyna. I'm not saying we all have fates, or destinies... ok, think of Galadriel's mirror in LOTR. It shows possible futures, not what is going to happen beyond a doubt. You still have to work to achieve the future you see, or avoid it, in Frodo's case. That's what I think about humans, too. Everyone has a preset path, or preset paths, but you are totally free to step off the path, or even follow someone else's path, or just forget about paths altogether, but one can only be happy if they follow their path(s) to the end. You must work to do this, and choose whether to do it or not, and sometimes we can't see our path clearly. That's what I believe, anyway. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 39
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written Friday, May 2 2003 18:51
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Peace is never an option. -------------------- desperance.net - honestly, no biting. Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 147
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written Saturday, May 3 2003 13:26
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Could someone briefly explain to me how St Augustine's decision that humans do not have free will works? Also, is it still adhered to in the Catholic Church or indeed any other Church? Posts: 1000 | Registered: Thursday, October 11 2001 07:00 |
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Member # 165
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written Saturday, May 3 2003 13:49
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Here's how I imagine any Church that follows it would have it as working: St. Augustine says you have no free will. You claim you have free will. It's abjectly obvious that St. Augustine > you. Thus you have no free will. QED. -------------------- desperance -- je me souviens arena -- et je me souviens de vous Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Saturday, May 3 2003 14:27
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M. Boeh, was that in refernce to my sig, or just in general? -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, May 3 2003 15:21
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The argument over the existence of free will is a distraction. It's impossible to prove whether we have it or not, because its existence or otherwise has no detectable consequences. -------------------- I'd be tender, I'd be gentle And awful sentimental Regarding love and art I'd be friends with the sparrows And the boy who shoots the arrows, If I only had a heart. Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, May 3 2003 17:18
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More importantly, the free-will argument has no consequences. If we have free will, we had better go about acting as though we do. If we don't have free will, we'll go around acting as if we do because that's what we're programmed to do (or we'll spontaneously stop) without any choice in the matter. Either way, the results are the same. ?Alorael, who is certainly perfectly content with the amount of self-determination he has, be it illusion or reality. What difference does it make, as long as you're satisfied with the choices you make? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Sunday, May 4 2003 16:22
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Exactly... I guess... -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2669
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written Monday, May 5 2003 14:06
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Ok, so can this be done with morality? How about next on the list, the welfare system: Where to begin? Subsidized housing, food stamps, social security, WIC,... I'm pretty sure all the social security taxes i've paid in over the years have gone towards buying ammo for field artillery. It is only in recent years that the US gov't has stopped counting SS taxes as part of its yearly revenue. The states are cutting back on all sorts of 'handouts', especially here in Mass., yet Boston remains one of the most expensive US cities to live in. -------------------- ... Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Tuesday, May 6 2003 10:22
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We have a different, more benificent welfare system here, though I too feel too much goes on (non-)managers and Tony's cronies and not enough on meeting the needs of the needy. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2893
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written Tuesday, May 6 2003 10:45
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quote:Oh boy what a topic this is! I love the way the states run lotteries that make loads of cash that never seems to find its way back down. And taxes being used to fund stadiums for pro sports teams that pay their players millions of bucks a year while less than a mile away families are going hungry. There are many, totally screwed up policies. I like the negative income tax idea. Draw a line at some income level. Everyone below gets money to bring them to the line and everyone above pays a flat amount on their income, no deductions possible. This is a simplistic explanation but the main points are there. We'd have plenty of $ to work with. Well, we'd also have to reign in all that absurd spending congress does and other government levels for that matter. </soapbox> John Posts: 97 | Registered: Friday, April 18 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Tuesday, May 6 2003 16:25
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[/commie] -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2893
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written Tuesday, May 6 2003 16:41
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Not a communist ideology at all. I never said all would have the same. I only discussed a different method of taxation; one that takes more from those who have and eases the burden on those that don't. Keep political ideologies straight! Posts: 97 | Registered: Friday, April 18 2003 07:00 |
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Member # 165
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written Tuesday, May 6 2003 16:51
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I find you using communism as an insult pretty stupid, David, and I imagine everyone else does too. The idea of such a welfare system is actually completely unconnected to communist ideology, which wouldn't have "taxes" at all, as there is no money in a purely communist system. Learn to read, fool. As for the one who had better than two brain cells to rub together when posting: By paying a flat amount of taxes, do you mean flat as in "pay the government 10,000 a year", "pay the government 5% of income a year", or "pay the government 5% + 1% for every 10,000 you make a year over this amount"? [The numbers here being only for purposes of demonstration, of course.] {For the record, I'm a relatively radical non-Marxist socialist.} [ Tuesday, May 06, 2003 16:53: Message edited by: el presidente ] -------------------- desperance -- je me souviens arena -- et je me souviens de vous Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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Member # 165
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written Tuesday, May 6 2003 16:56
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To double-post and keep from crowding too many ideas into one post: While free will does not have any direct impact on our actions, it certainly does have a more subtle impact. Tacticians who believe in fate, for example, tend not to try to learn from problems, as they believe that they are only tools of some higher power's will and that their ultimate victory or defeat rests in the hands of fate. Basically, fatalists make worse generals. See McClellan. -------------------- desperance -- je me souviens arena -- et je me souviens de vous Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00 |
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DELETED Member # 21
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written Tuesday, May 6 2003 22:18
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Harking back to the notion of selfishness: I think the notion of enlightened self-interest is a useful one. It is in my interest that everybody has a level of income such that they do not need to a) beg in the streets, b) break into my home to steal, c) any other form of antisocial activity while they are looking for work, or for some reason unable to work. As one of the minority of board members who actually pays taxes, I see these as a membership fee to a civilised society. But then I'm a liberal lefty god-botherer, so discoutable on three counts. -------------------- KazeArctica: Oh yes. KazeArctica: Oh YES Posts: 93 | Registered: Sunday, September 30 2001 22:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2893
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written Wednesday, May 7 2003 01:46
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quote:I actually meant a % of the income. The negative income tax idea is actually quite interesting. A "line" is determined specifying how much someone working should make per year, for example let's pick 15,000. So if you do not make 15k and are working you get the difference to bring you up to the 15k. If you are not working you get a flat amount to give you something but not all the way up to the 15k mark. Thus there is also an incentive to work. For those above the 15k mark they would pay a % of income which would increase the higher up in income you go. The amounts I give are purely examples but they give the basic idea. I am not a Marxist by any means but I do think a form of democratic socialism could work well if properly administered (thus the rub, what with crooked politicos and the inherent greed of so many folks). It does irritate though to think that the US at full farming output could actually feed a good portion of the world, yet people are starving. Sad, sad, sad....and some people, even here in the US have next to nothing but we will pay some clown millions of dollars to play football (or baseball, basketball) a few months out of the year. Anyway... John Posts: 97 | Registered: Friday, April 18 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 2893
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written Wednesday, May 7 2003 02:06
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quote:Good points Saunders! I have wondered before about overhauling the current welfare system along these lines: When you apply you are "hired by the state government" in a sense. You then work a specified number of hours to get "paid". I say set hours because job training/retraining (for new skills, for marketability) would be part of it too. This coupled with a negative income tax would allow people to rise above their current status. Enough money should be generated to allow for increased fundings for schools and state run universities. If we make education more accessible this could allow for some current welfare oriented families to "break the cycle". So often a child raised in the low income environment is stuck in it as they have lower quality schools, less family income so it is difficult to get to college and they wind up in the same loop when they grow up and then their kids are stuck. Gee, raising the lifestyles may even reduce crime in the long run as people develop more pride and see there are ways out of where they are without crime. Yeah, rose colored glasses.... John Posts: 97 | Registered: Friday, April 18 2003 07:00 |