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AuthorTopic: Crossfire
Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
Profile #75
Man... and now I only have time to respond to M. Boeh.

I don't know about Big Macs, but I do know that pot can harm not only the smoker, but also those around him/her. It may not be the worst thing, but then we're back to the argument, is it wrong to go after a smaller problem when a larger one exists? I say no, go after them all, eventually. Those who think who should have forgot about Iraq and went after N. Korea instead will argue, but... oh well.

Same with your second paragraph. I don't think that smoking should be legal at all; unfortunately, it's so much a part of American life that it would be hard to just get rid of, like a parasite. You can kill the tick with tweezers, but if the head is not removed, you will keep bleeding out through it.

I couldn't care less what Bakunin would do with his trifurcated obelisk. Once again, this argument comes down to whether pot is bad for you or not, and just how bad it is. I think that this should definitely be researched and gone over carefully, but all the current evidence shows it's pretty bad. I also know from experience... more than half my Bio class smokes pot like crazy...

You next paragraph corresponds nicely with my first and second.

As for that (second to) last response, I don't correspond solely with people exactly like me (I guess this is a response to Rache, too.) In fact, many of the people I talk to disagree with me on many subjects, such as government, religion (big one), the war(another big one), pot, other drugs, etc. And yet I still haven't found one. Maybe they're more afraid to support legalization than those who are against it or something, but I should've heard it by now. And why does it matter? They have past experience, and know it a lot better than some teenager trying to impress his friends and rebel against his parents and the government.

And that last "big question", you can't do that with hemlock. Doing that would be suicide, it's illegal. Drakey and I discussed this last night, I don't have the time to go over that again.

(By the way, regarding what you said; I don't.)

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And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it.
-The Last Pendragon

TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL

In case of emergency, break glass.
Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #76
I think suicide should be legal too...

Anyway, I agree absolutely that smoking harms not just the smoker but anyone who is around. I'm also an asthmatic, and I can say that dealing with even the amount of cigarette smoke in America is hard, let alone the amount in Europe. I say all smoking should be illegal in public, where it's a danger to everybody. In private, what difference does it make?

Drugs are definitely unhealthy, but marijuana is not even as bad as alcohol. In fact, I don't think it caues any proven long-term problems other than those related to smoking. If it were turned into another form, it would be a nice way to get slightly high without terrible consequences. What's wrong with that?

?Alorael, who hasn't seen the government doing such a good job in preventing marijuana use. Instead, it could just make it safer and healthier. And it would be much cheaper, too. Doesn't that make far more sense?
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #77
Ehem. We used to bake cookies with it.

Is suicide illegal in he US? Or are you kidding?

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Polaris
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 1506
Profile #78
Suicide is in fact illegal. I believe the reasoning is that people then have the power to sentence a person to a place where they can get help and rehabilitation.

Sir David, I would like to ask you to please read the posts you responded to (especially Djur's, since you mostly directed your post to him), and consider--merely consider--their points. You are dismissing them out of hand because you have never experienced anything like they are telling you.

You by yourself are only anecdotal evidence. By telling Djur and others that because you have not met anyone that agrees with them--and of course you must have met someone like that in all your 14-15 years of life!--you imply that you have all the information about the discussion at hand. Djur, Rache, and the others certainly don't either, but they are certainly being more open-minded than you. They can admit a point and say that marijuana can be bad for yourself and others especially when smoked--but you cannot even admit that you have not met all the middle-aged former pot smokers there is to meet.

Certainly where you live is a conservative area; I posit that even if anyone in your area has smoked pot, they will be very cautious about admitting such and especially about declaring their support for its legalization.

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desperance.net -- Come on in, we don't bite. Well, I don't.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Saturday, July 13 2002 07:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #79
quote:
Suicide is in fact illegal.
I need time to take that in. It is touching something essential within me. Not to own my own life, not to be free to choose for myself. You teach me to look upon my country with friendlier eyes than I've done in a long while.

quote:
I don't know about Big Macs
Well, I do. Quite a few of us over here are rather food conscious. Junk food is not on my list. If I eat something like that I'm sick for two to three days. My body is not used to all those preservatives, artificial colours, and artficial flavours. They are slightly toxic and I react to that.

Eating them regularly builds up some sort of immunity, as is the case with every toxic substance. Believe me, for someone not used to that kind of food, marihuana is easier to digest.

quote:
The government should not dictate a person's behavior more than is necessary to guarantee "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." I don't know about you, but I'm willing to take the personal choice to sacrifice a bit of the first to gain a good deal of the latter.
Who wouldn't. Creativity needs the freedom of risk. Quite frankly, David, if I am not free to go to the devil should that be my choice, there's little chance I'll ever see a ray of true light.

[ Sunday, April 27, 2003 23:22: Message edited by: ef ]

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Polaris
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 521
Profile Homepage #80
Suicides, or attempted suicides aren't quite illegal, but rather, sufficent cause to forcefully hospitalize someone. It's not like they are thrown in to prison for it, rather they can be committed if the state can be convinced they are going to try it again.

Besides, ef, your nation isn't that bad. Watten Dass is a pretty good show. Kinder eire are cool and wine from the mosel is th best.

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I am not really here.
Posts: 956 | Registered: Wednesday, January 16 2002 08:00
Babelicious
Member # 39
Profile Homepage #81
For Eris' sake, we already limit tobacco smoking to the point where you either have to go to a nightclub, a bar, or purposely visit a "smoking area" to inhale the stuff. How about allowing people to smoke in the privacy of their home? Ever thought of that?
If you're going to ban everything that could potentially be harmful, you're going to ban everything.

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desperance.net - honestly, no biting.
Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #82
Smoking is still legal in bars over there?

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I'd be tender, I'd be gentle
And awful sentimental
Regarding love and art
I'd be friends with the sparrows
And the boy who shoots the arrows,
If I only had a heart.
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2628
Profile Homepage #83
Since at 40 I've passed the halfway point of my 'three-score years and ten' I suppose I qualify as middle-aged. Yes, I used to smoke pot regularly. I gave it up when I started my family.

Last year one of my neighbours gave me about a joint's worth of grass (he sells to half the people in the street, I think he was trying for another customer). Before I returned it to my neighbour, I showed it to my teenagers and discussed my experiences with marijuana including why I hoped they wouldn't take up marijuana usage.

I believe there have been studies that demonstrate links between mental illness (most notably schizophrenia) and marijuana usage, and my anecdotal experience in working with people receiving sickness allowances and disability pensions backs that up. I have no idea whether it's because people with mental illnesses are more likely to abuse marijuana or whether it's because longterm use of marijuana can trigger mental illness in someone with a genetic predisposition to it.

Am I for or against the legalisation of marijuana? In my state it's been decriminalised for personal usage. That means if you grow less than a certain amount of plants (I think the max is three?) you get an on-the-spot fine and no conviction. What's the effect of decriminalisation? It's freed up the police and drug squads to go after other criminals. Sadly, some of those other crimes now include assaults relating to theft of marijuana plants/crops. It's freed up the courts to deal with other matters. The fines make money for the government, so it keeps taxes from increasing as fast. The hydroponics industry has exploded from one shop to dozens in my city, and the electricity companies are reaping the profits from people who use halogen lights for indoor crops.

What's my stand on further decriminalisation or legalisation of marijuana? Well, people are going to use & abuse it whether it's legal or not. There are going to be health issues from it's use - but as a cigarette smoker I guess I live in a glass house on that topic. While I no longer use it and would prefer that my children never use it, I see no reason not to legalise marijuana for personal usage as long as it is accompanied by decent education campaigns regarding its dangers and increased budgets for health services.

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We meet and part now over all the world;
we, the lost company,
take hands together in the night, forget
the night in our brief happiness, silently.
-- Judith Wright

My website
Posts: 512 | Registered: Wednesday, February 12 2003 08:00
Guardian
Member # 2476
Profile #84
quote:
I believe there have been studies that demonstrate links between mental illness (most notably schizophrenia) and marijuana usage, and my anecdotal experience in working with people receiving sickness allowances and disability pensions backs that up.
People who suffer from psychic disorder may sometimes prefer grass or pot to an increased intake of neuroleptica and/or antidepressives, as the side effects are less uncomfortable. Unrest and depression feel less severe.

Cannabis is used in the treatment of cancer patients in combination with morphine, as it annihilates the nausea morphine often brings up, while heightening and lengthening its anaesthetic efficacy.

It is also used in the treatment of Multiple Sclerosis because of its antispasmodic potential.

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Polaris
Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00
Shaper
Member # 496
Profile #85
Beyonde regulation and harm reduction, a key argument for legalising drugs rather more addictive and toxic than cannabis is that people won't steal to buy something they can get for free. Cops say 90% of some crimes (e.g. burglary, shoplifting) are down to junkies, though I guess this varies a lot from area to area.
Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 87
Profile Homepage #86
One of the role of government is to protect it's citizens. It is also supposed to do what they want. This is one the the things that is very tricky. The best analogy would probably be prohibition, and what differences there were between alchohol consumption and related activities before and after prohibition's repeal. I don't really know much about this, but someone could make a REALLY good case from it, either way.

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Tip of the Day: #13 Stand clear the closing door.

That's treason.
(THNIK)(Peculiar James, FP productions co, inc)
Posts: 816 | Registered: Friday, October 5 2001 07:00
Babelicious
Member # 39
Profile Homepage #87
Alcohol consumption didn't reduce significantly during Prohibition. Crime did, though.

As long as people can refer to 'the government' and 'citizens' as separate entities, we've got a problem.
Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2669
Profile Homepage #88
Come to think of it, wasn't there a pot referendum in one state on the 2000 ballot? i think it was Nevada, and it did get voted down, although only by about 10%.
But even if that had been approved, would that not have violated the federal controlled substances act?

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Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00
Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
Profile #89
Ahhh, you people still respond too fast for me... I will only address the few directly below me.

What's wrong with that, Alorael? Unless you smoke into a can and then seal it right after withdrawing the ciggarette, the smoke gets into the air. It may not affect an asthmetic immediately, but think of how many billions of cigarettes are smoked each day; the smoke is in the air, etc. And anyway, "in private" can mean in the presense of your own children, as long as they are inside your house. The children have no say over it, and it's very harmful to them.

Also, I don't necessarily think marijuana should be entirely illegal; I'm sure there are some good things about it, if used in moderation. I mean, there are a ton of over-the-counter pills that can do worse stuff to you than pot, but that's why they are used only when needed and in moderation (well, supposed to be used like that anyway). I'm sure it has some good parts; rolling it up in a piece of paper and smoking it is not included in those "good parts".

It does make far more sense, but then people would abuse drugs again, just as some do with the aforementioned pills. If there were some way to control that, well, that would be great.

Hawkgirl: First of all, I never said that I have all the information. A conservative area? Well, possibly, but I do know middle aged former pot-smoking hippies who may not be as liberal as most of you here, but certainly aren't conservative as you all think of me as. We've had debates in history class (informal ones); mine is taught by a former... hippie shop owner... I forgot what those are called... anyway, she smoked pot like crazy and sold it as well, and is now very liberal, and yet she rejects legalization. So... we're not just a bunch of die-hard change-hating Republicans, anyway.

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And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it.
-The Last Pendragon

TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL

In case of emergency, break glass.
Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00
Triad Mage Banned Veteran
Member # 165
Profile Homepage #90
quote:
Originally posted by Ooklah the Moc:
Come to think of it, wasn't there a pot referendum in one state on the 2000 ballot? i think it was Nevada, and it did get voted down, although only by about 10%.
But even if that had been approved, would that not have violated the federal controlled substances act?

Yup. I blame the referendum's failure on Mormons, personally.

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desperance -- je me souviens
arena -- et je me souviens de vous
Posts: 2449 | Registered: Monday, October 15 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #91
quote:
Originally posted by iDavid:
What's wrong with that, Alorael? Unless you smoke into a can and then seal it right after withdrawing the ciggarette, the smoke gets into the air. It may not affect an asthmetic immediately, but think of how many billions of cigarettes are smoked each day; the smoke is in the air, etc. And anyway, "in private" can mean in the presense of your own children, as long as they are inside your house. The children have no say over it, and it's very harmful to them.
All the smoke from all the cigarettes in the world for a day probably doesn't match the air pollution of an hour of NYC traffic. I certainly know that I have trouble breathing in many cities, but a moderate distance between me and a smoker will solve any cigarette-induced asthma. I agree about the risk to children, but I don't know if it's fair for marijuana to be legalized and then made too difficult to use.

?Alorael, who could see a number of solutions, the best of which is to try to turn marijuana into a non-smoked drug. It would be interesting to see how much of the fun is in the drug and how much is in the smoking...
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 1506
Profile #92
quote:
Originally posted by iDavid:
Hawkgirl: First of all, I never said that I have all the information. A conservative area? Well, possibly, but I do know middle aged former pot-smoking hippies who may not be as liberal as most of you here, but certainly aren't conservative as you all think of me as. We've had debates in history class (informal ones); mine is taught by a former... hippie shop owner... I forgot what those are called... anyway, she smoked pot like crazy and sold it as well, and is now very liberal, and yet she rejects legalization. So... we're not just a bunch of die-hard change-hating Republicans, anyway.
I appreciate that you've actually detailed one of the many middle-aged pot smokers you know, but now the problem is that this is only one. Even if you assure us you know five, or ten or fifteen, your access to people of that type is far too small to draw any conclusions from their ideas.

I have a teacher who is very conservative but crossed party lines in support of Clinton; does that mean that all conservatives liked Clinton, or that all history teachers vote Democratic? No, of course not.

Consider that there are nearly 300 million (300,000,000) people in America today. Even if a mere 1% of this 300 million were middle-aged people who smoked pot when they were younger, this would total 3 million people. Now, I'm not saying that to prove a point you would have to know the details of these 3 million people. But 15 people who have not been randomly selected (perhaps only now-conservative people who were rebellious back in the day live in your town--you don't know) is not enough to base a judgement on.

I would say a survey of 100 people minimum who fit the description would lend much more weight to your assertion that most middle-aged people who used to smoke pot don't think it should be legal (and let's not even get into why that != pot is bad).

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desperance.net -- Come on in, we don't bite. Well, I don't.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Saturday, July 13 2002 07:00
Babelicious
Member # 39
Profile Homepage #93
The only real difference legalization would make for me is that I'd save a lot of money.

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desperance.net - honestly, no biting.
Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2669
Profile Homepage #94
That talk's illegal, young man.
Can we move on to the next subject? This one seems to have been pretty well covered.
Back to morality:
Um, yeah, the question at hand was: how can we live with ourselves when people in africa, heck, people under the bridge downtown are starving to death?

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Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00
Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
Profile #95
Um, yeah, because all of us dying wouldn't do them much good. =]

Now back to the other subject. Sort of. Alorael, I know that car exhaust if bad; I think that new feuls should be researched, along with better ways to dispose of the gas than throwing it out the back of the car. Cars are a lot more useful than cigarettes, though, so I don't want them illegalized.

And yes, that would be interesting to try, Alorael.

Pre-edit: That first sentence may be offensive to some people, but I really ment it as a joke. He said "how can we live with ourselves"... and I was just intentionally misinterpreting that... yeah... just in case someone took that wrong.

Hawkgirl, I'm not saying that they represent all of America; I'm just saying that it's strange that 1 out of the 15 or 20 doesn't support it. I was just mentioning it, not saying that these people represent the entire country. And on these boards, I am often the one who must remind people that not all conservatives are the same, not all Democrats feel exactly the same. I know that very well.

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And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it.
-The Last Pendragon

TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL

In case of emergency, break glass.
Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2669
Profile Homepage #96
First of all, as has been stated a number of times before, you do not need to smoke marijuana. You can put it in baked goods, make tea and heck, even eat it plain (get a big glass of water, though), all without busting out your junior chemistry set. The effect is the same, if not better (since none of it gets wasted in combustion), although slower in onset. Smoking is just the quickest way to do it.
As an avowed city biker I will tell you that car exhaust is many times worse than smoking pot. Smoking a joint or bowl might be worse than a cigarette or two, but overall you consume much less marijuana than you would cigarettes, or alcohol, for that matter.

I'm for decriminalization not only for the bogus health reasons cited, but for the fact that I fail to see a crime in that act of smoking a natural substance. You harm noone but yourself, but no more than a lot of other activities which are perfectly legal. Statistically speaking, smoking pot is most likely safer than standing on a ladder or biking, for that matter.

[ Tuesday, April 29, 2003 15:01: Message edited by: RentBoy ]

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Posts: 647 | Registered: Wednesday, February 19 2003 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 1506
Profile #97
That sounds fair to me, David. So long as you understand the limitations of your arguments you can believe whatever you want.

I'm bored with this subject too. What I want to know about morality is why Scorpius is so interested in it. I think perhaps he dislikes people who think they are moral when they're really just people so obsessed with their own lives they do not care for anyone else.

Well...sometimes I want to be moral. Sometimes it saddens me that I can't make the whole world better. I can't. I try to satisfy that part of me by helping everyone I can. The rest of me is quite happy being selfish, thank you very much.

And I'm not sure even the 'moral' side of me is so moral...after all, my true goal is to make myself happy by making everyone else happy. So I am truly selfish. Can one be selfish and moral?

I'm not sure. Is it moral to actively try to right everything if it is only for my own inner peace? And for that matter, is it really my business to right everything? Starving people in Africa are one thing, but what if I am totally confident that killing people with blue eyes will help 'right' everything?

tl, dr: I have no freaking clue. But it is interesting to think about.

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desperance.net -- Come on in, we don't bite. Well, I don't.
Posts: 218 | Registered: Saturday, July 13 2002 07:00
Babelicious
Member # 39
Profile Homepage #98
Arguing over whether x is moral is moot. Morality differs from person to person and viewpoint to viewpoint.

Oh, and RentBoy can gag.

[ Wednesday, April 30, 2003 14:02: Message edited by: M. Boeh ]
Posts: 1074 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
Profile #99
Thanks for that first paragraph, HawkGirl.

And I agree with the rest of that. It is my personal belief that everyone has a certain job, or certain jobs, that they are supposed to do in life. Not everyone does that job, though... I think that if you are doing what you are put here to do, you are doing right. Don't worry about your basic human traits... almsot everyone is selfish in the way you are talking about. As long as you don't become a miser or something... that's fine.

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And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it.
-The Last Pendragon

TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL

In case of emergency, break glass.
Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00

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