8000: Pseudoscience Postravaganza

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AuthorTopic: 8000: Pseudoscience Postravaganza
Shaper
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[ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 20:21: Message edited by: Synergy67 ]

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Law Bringer
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That's true for your general practitioner, but cutting-edge (sometimes literally) medical science is very much aware of energy and quantum mechanics. Classical mechanics have their place, such as in analyzing forces at play in muscle and skeletal movements, but biochemistry tends towards chemistry, and chemistry requires quantifiable answers.

—Alorael, who just Thuryled. He's quite proud of it, too, although he's a bit sorry that he didn't stoop all that low.
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Shaper
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[ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 20:21: Message edited by: Synergy67 ]

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Skip to My Lou
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IMAGE(http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a181/Alexsticks/ImmanuelVelikovsky.gif)

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Agent
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I don't believe this thread has any purpose other than for Thuryl to show off his big... postcount and knowledge of science, but if it results in more stick figures, then that is welcome.

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"I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius

Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4
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Shaper
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Hear! Hear! Where ya been hidin', Alex?

-S-

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Skip to My Lou
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I'm lurkalicious. :D

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Agent
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That pool cue is positively hilarious. Good job.

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From my experience of classical physics vs quantum physics, I'd say that the "classical -> particles, quantum -> energy" isn't so much a simplification, or a description of what happens in practice, as it is flat-out wrong.

Solving problems using things like conservation of energy, or least action, was originally developed for classical physics and then reapplied to quantum physics once that came round. Thermodynamics preceeds quantum theory too.

Then quantum theory comes in and says (among other things) that things we used to treat as forces or energy transmission via waves can also be thought of as being carried by moving particles. (and vice versa).

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Shaper
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[ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 20:21: Message edited by: Synergy67 ]

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Off With Their Heads
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You're not talking about what scientists call "energy." You're talking about what biologists call someone's "mental set." That's totally different, and it has been and continues to be studied. It's just not as effective at, say, curing cancer as medicines are.

Moreover, it has nothing whatever to do with quantum mechanics or relativity.

[ Tuesday, December 12, 2006 16:34: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Shaper
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[ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 20:22: Message edited by: Synergy67 ]

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Law Bringer
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You're mixing science and mysticism, Synergy.

Pharmaceutical companies stick with drugs. Occasionally they branch out into novel forms of treatment, but drugs are what they do. I'm less familiar with surgery, but I believe it works on the principles of figuring out what needs to be done and then doing it, usually with exhaustive research in advance. If it works, it becomes part of the repertoire.

You claim that energy is "100% efficient." On what basis? Energy exists and does things, but it never does 100% what you want. That's basic thermodynamics. Energy is also quite often tied up in the molecules and chemicals you disparage. What fuels our cells? Molecules that store and release energy.

The effect of current and electric fields on bodies are studied. The other "energies" you name aren't energy in any scientific sense. Emotion and thought aren't "pooh-poohed" because they seem less quantifiable. We can't quantify them, and we don't even try to quantify them as energy because they aren't.

First, discussion of what is physically energy: there is a great deal of research done, but you make it sound much more mystical than it is. Running current through someone isn't (usually) helpful. Phosphorylation of proteins is studied, but it's not based on waves of energy from extrinsic source. We know exactly where our ATP comes from and generally what it does, and yes, our understanding advances with chemistry.

Thought, emotion, and other non-scientific energies are studied as well. Take a look at NCCAM for a big example. Promising studies are taken seriously, but most claims are shown to be baseless.

The other side of this is, of course, neuroscience and psychology. Nobody denies the valuable and different contributions of these two fields of science. Yes, we know that emotions have an effect on health. There are ways to study it, and it is being studied, without recourse to a rejection of the scientific method or medical science.

Take a look at recent advances in biomedical science. In the past few decades we've gone from discovering the structure of DNA to sequencing the whole human genome. DNA chips let us look at protein expression regulation in thousands of genes simultaneously. Proteomics now includes modeling fantastically complicated structures and understanding their function and, yes, where their energy comes from. Bioinformatics lets scientists sift through vast amounts of data. How do all these amount to Dark Ages?

For the record, a great deal is known about where cancer comes from. It's usually not diseased immune systems. Genetic predispositions, chemical carcinogens, and even energy in the form of radiation all have their roles. There is plenty of focus on how to prevent or reduce the occurrence of cancer from a purely physical point of view.

—Alorael, who would like one serious suggestion of a specific area into which scientific investigation is lacking and could lead to novel new treatments. Claiming that mysticism isn't taken seriously isn't a very strong argument for those who don't take mysticism seriously.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
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[ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 20:22: Message edited by: Synergy67 ]

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...b10010b...
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Eh. In hindsight, I was lucky to make one of these things without sparking controversy; two was too much to expect.

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Shaper
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[ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 20:22: Message edited by: Synergy67 ]

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Warrior
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The problem isn't your words. It's that what your words are communicating is ludicrous woo of the most limpwristed Choprish sort, altochrister.
Posts: 180 | Registered: Friday, October 15 2004 07:00
...b10010b...
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Today's name, Plant Perception, is the belief that plants, despite lacking anything resembling a brain or nervous system, have emotions and can read the minds of humans.

No, really. Stop giggling.

We owe this... remarkable... theory to one Cleve Backster. For reasons best known to himself, he decided to hook up a plant leaf to a polygraph machine. He noticed that some of the patterns recorded on the polygraph looked a little like human anxiety responses, and decided that this must mean he was making his plant nervous. In an attempt to make the plant even more nervous, he searched for a box of matches with which to burn a leaf of the plant. At some point while doing this, he noticed a sharp movement on the polygraph and concluded that the plant was reading his mind. Of course, since there were no controls, he had no way of knowing whether the polygraph would have done that anyway if he hadn't been thinking about burning the plant.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
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Electric Sheep One
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My plants all have deathwish.

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Shaper
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How exactly do you hook a plant up to a polygraph? What does it measure?

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Shaper
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quote:
Originally written by Archmage Alex:

I'm lurkalicious. :D
Is that crunchy-like-a-buffalo-lurkalicious, or cuddleberry-muffin-lurkalicious?

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*Name by Slarty, so blame him if it's filthy...
Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
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I can see hooking a plant up to something, but a polygraph measures such signs as heart rate and blood pressure. Plants don't have either one. Maybe it would have to be transpiration rate and, uh, photosynthesis? I suppose surface conductivity remains viable.

[Edit: As it turns out, that's basically what he did. Monitoring conductivity due to water movement is a decent plant polygraph, I guess, although ascribing emotions to it seems to be a bit of a leap. Just a bit.]

—Alorael, who wonders what people are supposed to eat once the plant rights activists join with the animal-rights vegetarians. Soylent green may be the only food left.

[ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 08:23: Message edited by: In Times of Tandem ]
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
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quote:
Originally written by In Times of Tandem:

—Alorael, who wonders what people are supposed to eat once the plant rights activists join with the animal-rights vegetarians. Soylent green may be the only food left.
Spam. Or hot-dogs. They have no meat in them at all, and they can't be classed as plants either. They just sorta 'exist' :P

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And when you want to Live
How do you start?
Where do you go?
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*Name by Slarty, so blame him if it's filthy...
Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Lifecrafter
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quote:
Originally written by Nikki x:

quote:
Originally written by In Times of Tandem:

—Alorael, who wonders what people are supposed to eat once the plant rights activists join with the animal-rights vegetarians. Soylent green may be the only food left.
Spam. Or hot-dogs. They have no meat in them at all, and they can't be classed as plants either. They just sorta 'exist' :P

To spam!

Actually, though, I'm all for saving a plant and eating a cow.

EDIT: Oh! Post 200. Look at that. Too bad I'm too lazy to upload images.

[ Wednesday, December 13, 2006 15:07: Message edited by: Nemesis ]

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Councilor
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Originally by Nikki:

quote:
Spam. Or hot-dogs. They have no meat in them at all, and they can't be classed as plants either. They just sorta 'exist' :P
Twinkies!

Or more seriously (but only slightly so), stuff that's already dead. We'll become a society of scavengers. There's probably not enough (freshly) dead stuff available to feed everyone in the world, but that won't be a problem once people start starving to death.

Dikiyoba.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00

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