Eep! Christians! (Split from Christian Radio)

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Author	Topic: Eep! Christians! (Split from Christian Radio)
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Wednesday, February 22 2006 23:33 Profile Homepage #150 quote: Originally written by Bruce Mitchell: I continue to question whether modern medicine helps overwhelmingly more often than it hurts. I’d say in true emergencies, this is very true. However, I feel that in the field of pregnancy and birth this is especially not true. Quick reality check: Infant mortality rates — this is a .gov site, so I think it's reputable — in the developed world are vastly below the levels they were at prior to the development of modern medicine. Compare countries that don't have modern health care systems, such as Angola, with the developed world: Angola has a rate nearly thirty times that in the U.S. I don't have figures on women surviving childbirth in the developed world (somewhere in the realm of one death per 10,000 births, I think), but I do know that the normal cause of death for women in classical times was childbirth (and C-sections prior to the 16th c. invariably meant death, and almost always even in the 19th c.). I did get a source for not long in the past, and it seems reasonably reputable (a .edu, in association with a university and some other real organizations) that cites this statistic: "During the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, between 1 percent and 1.5 percent of all births ended in the mother's death as a result of exhaustion, dehydration, infection, hemorrhage, or convulsions." I will agree that much more progress needs to be made, but denying that modern medicine has made tremendous advances in the survival of both mother and child during pregnancy and birth is simply ignoring the facts. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Wednesday, February 22 2006 23:37 Profile #151 quote: Okay, so if the eradication of disease isn't a desirable goal even in principle, what's the ideal amount of disease that should exist? You have not been cleared for that information. If you can save 1,000,000,000 people for $40 each would you do it? How about 1,000,000 people at $4000 each? Or 1000 people at $400,000 each? What if you could only pick one of the above? It is not a wise use of resources to eradicate all illness. See Σίσυφος for more details. [ Wednesday, February 22, 2006 23:41: Message edited by: Jumpin' Salmon ] -------------------- quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing. Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Wednesday, February 22 2006 23:49 Profile Homepage #152 I always thought that was a particularly inspired story. Hades has always been a good friend to me. If I had gone Greek for that mythoidentifying question, I'd probably have said Kerberos. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Thursday, February 23 2006 00:27 Profile Homepage #153 quote: Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon: If you can save 1,000,000,000 people for $40 each would you do it? How about 1,000,000 people at $4000 each? Or 1000 people at $400,000 each? Economists say an average human in the USA makes a positive contribution of about 10 million dollars to the economy over the course of a lifetime. So in economic terms alone it makes sense to save those lives at those prices. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Arancaytar Law Bringer Member # 2984	written Thursday, February 23 2006 03:25 Profile Homepage #154 At what age are the people though? If you are going to look at it economically, then some of them will have already contributed a lot of those ten million and are thus of no further use to the country - abolish pensions! Or those who have (economically) contributed very little so far - would it be irrational to assume they will not contribute much more in the future, and therefore are of little value? -- That line of argument seems like a very slippery slope indeed to me... -------------------- Encyclopaedia Ermariana • Forum Archives • Forum Statistics • RSS [Topic / Forum] My Blog • Polaris • I eat novels for breakfast. Polaris is dead, long live Polaris. Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair. Posts: 8752 \| Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
The Immortal BANNED Member # 4	written Thursday, February 23 2006 04:39 Profile Homepage #155 If you practice moral calculus, you've already lost. I mean, simply based on the odds that you'll become another Hitler, I could justify killing any number of you. A "final solution" to the "Hitler question," if you will. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Bruce Mitchell Apprentice Member # 596	written Thursday, February 23 2006 05:20 Profile #156 Some points for consideration- Yes, I am very invested in my viewpoint. I see how much suffering there is in modern birthing, for example. Angola has been a war-torn for decades – and this is true of many African countries. Hardly the environment for harmonious births. Africa is partially screwed up from the mix of western influence and the loss of the instinctual that thus arose. In many African cultures violent patriarchy pre-existed the western influence. It would be interesting to get mother’s death rates before the 16 century for the very harmonious Bushmen. The advent of patriarchy many thousands of years ago brought about women disempowerment. This meant women were unsupported = bad pregnancies and bad births. The hygiene in 16C and 19C Europe was terrible. I believe but cannot corroborate that in some aboriginal culture, it was the norm for the heavily pregnant woman to slip away for childbirth and within a short time (minutes) come back to the perhaps travelling tribe. As far as I know, the more matriarchal and undiluted the culture, the less likely the mother would die in childbirth. Sory about the attachment parenting link – try this rather http://www.attachmentparenting.org/faqap.shtml I doubt that government information (including therefore websites) are that reputable – whether intentionally or not. For me, reducing human suffering through preventing and curing disease is a worthy goal. Get advice from doctors (and many other sources) rather than trusting them - then trust your instincts/gut. The pathogens in the hospital that I am concerned about are the doctors and their domino-effect interferences and the hospital policy. One thing I forgot to mention in walking my talk is our centre, presently a guesthouse which contributes to youth projects and local community. www.butterflyhavencastle.com Posts: 49 \| Registered: Sunday, February 3 2002 08:00
Drakefyre Triad Mage Member # 7	written Thursday, February 23 2006 06:10 Profile Homepage #157 quote: Part of the issue of iatrogenic for me is that doctors tend to look more at the body and less at the psyche and the lifestyle. If more emphasis was put on training doctors to be more holistic, more preventative, it would be good. In my opinion, this is much more the responsibility of the individual, rather than the doctor. Doctors are not usually preventative measures (unless for vaccines), they are reacting to sickness, injury, etc. that already exists. The onus is on the individual to be preventative and focus on their psyche and lifestyle. -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 \| Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00
The Lurker Shock Trooper Member # 6821	written Thursday, February 23 2006 07:32 Profile #158 quote: Originally written by Prometheus: If you practice moral calculus, you've already lost. I mean, simply based on the odds that you'll become another Hitler, I could justify killing any number of you. A "final solution" to the "Hitler question," if you will. Agreed. I think there are way too many people who practice moral calculus nowadays, even if it's not necessarily about killing. Posts: 363 \| Registered: Wednesday, February 22 2006 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Thursday, February 23 2006 08:16 Profile Homepage #159 quote: Originally written by Bruce Mitchell: It would be interesting to get mother’s death rates before the 16 century for the very harmonious Bushmen. Well, obviously, no statistics were directly collected. I can't find any reputable online sources for this, but everything I've ever read indicates that death rates in childbirth were always high prior to the advent of modern medicine, including in hunter-gatherer societies. The "very harmonious Bushmen" probably had a life expectancy at birth of ten years, and probably the majority of their women died in childbirth. quote: The hygiene in 16C and 19C Europe was terrible. Yes, but what's your point? All I was saying was that death in childbirth prior to the 20th c. was incredibly common, and in particular, C-sections were 100% fatal. The hygiene in hunter-gatherer societies was pretty bad, too. quote: I believe but cannot corroborate that in some aboriginal culture, it was the norm for the heavily pregnant woman to slip away for childbirth and within a short time (minutes) come back to the perhaps travelling tribe. I do not think that this is possible. I don't know what the world record is for birthing time, but a few minutes would beat it. quote: As far as I know, the more matriarchal and undiluted the culture, the less likely the mother would die in childbirth. A statement like this is very easy to make and very hard to demonstrate. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Thursday, February 23 2006 08:29 Profile Homepage #160 If everyone survived, we'd overpopulate even faster and cause disaster. Really it would be lovely to eradicate disease and Malthusian exponential population growth. Two children per couple with no deaths would be lovely, except I don't think the Earth can support its current human population at first world levels even without growth right now. quote: Originally written by Bruce Mitchell: Some points for consideration- Yes, I am very invested in my viewpoint. I see how much suffering there is in modern birthing, for example. This is rather true for ancient birthing, too. Extremely true, actually. Or did you miss the fact that the Bible apparently considers childbirth a curse of sorts? quote: As far as I know, the more matriarchal and undiluted the culture, the less likely the mother would die in childbirth. Cite, please. What cultures are "matriarchal and undiluted," and what are their childbirth mortality rates? quote: I doubt that government information (including therefore websites) are that reputable – whether intentionally or not. Then we have no way to debate, because you refuse to accept our sources and we refuse to accept yours. Since federally funded organizations are usually considered the best sources for unbiased medical information, though, I think you're the one putting on blinders here. quote: [b]Get advice from doctors (and many other sources) rather than trusting them - then trust your instincts/gut. [/b] [b]No![/b] You get advice from doctors or other professionals becauses they are trained to have valid reasons supporting their judgments. They know more than you on medical issues. You have a right to choose, but choosing based on something other than medical advice is absurd. If you're going to go on gut reactions, don't bother going to a doctor at all. You're wasting your time and the doctor's. quote: The pathogens in the hospital that I am concerned about are the doctors and their domino-effect interferences and the hospital policy. If nothing is wrong, a good doctor won't do anything. If something is wrong, the doctor tries to fix it. The worse things are, the more likely intervention is to bring up further problems, which require further interventions. This is not the fault of the doctor or the hospita. Isn't it better to undergo this "domino effect" than to just die, as people did before modern healthcare? —Alorael, who recommends looking at the NCCAM site. Poke around for a few minutes. Read some abstracts. This part in particular is appropriate to this debate. It is, sadly, an unreliable and biased government website, but what can you do? [ Thursday, February 23, 2006 08:32: Message edited by: Uc ] Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Thursday, February 23 2006 11:20 Profile #161 quote: Originally written by Prometheus: If you practice moral calculus, you've already lost. I mean, simply based on the odds that you'll become another Hitler, I could justify killing any number of you. A "final solution" to the "Hitler question," if you will. You've got $400 billion to spend. You could either cure one disease for all time, or improve life quality of all Africans for the next 1000 years by 50%. Please apply your moral calculus. -------------------- quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing. Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Ash Lael E Equals MC What!!!! Member # 5491	written Thursday, February 23 2006 12:07 Profile Homepage #162 quote: Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon: You've got $400 billion to spend. You could either cure one disease for all time, or improve life quality of all Africans for the next 1000 years by 50%. Please apply your moral calculus. Cure AIDS and do both. :P -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 \| Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Bruce Mitchell Apprentice Member # 596	written Friday, February 24 2006 13:38 Profile #163 It’s been about six years since I wrote my book. Then I was more immersed factually in the subject. I have not studied the subject for years. Rather I have been practising it, walking the talk. The fact that I am so busy walking my talk does not make it easy to respond timeously or precisely in this forum. I am sorry but it is taking too much time away from my family and other life issues. To respond for the last time:- Women are very disempowered about their bodies (so out of touch with their instinct/gut). Their place in society is so low in so many places. This needs to change. To me it is absurd that a doctor is more of an expert about your own body than you (even more so a male doctor without any idea of natural birth bossing a birthing woman around). Maybe Monty Python’s ‘The Meaning of Life’ has an excellent skit about this. I would like to say in respect to maternal mortality: I agree modern medicine has helped many dysfunctional cultures to lower maternal mortality, but they still do more harm than good. Have you never read about the hospital horror stories of birthing? Read the book, ‘Immaculate Deception II’ by Suzanne Arms. I want to know a lot more about maternal mortality in wise untouched cultures where women were supported well (which I previouly referred to as undiluted matriarchal cultures, a description which I now feel is not what I really meant), as well as maternal mortality in wild animals. Whilst life is preferable to death in birthing, an empowered living women would be so much better – this comes more from home births without medical experts telling the woman what to do, and where domino effect is far less likely to occur, the assistants/doulas (if any) assisting the woman through her initiation. Some of the reasons for maternal mortality in developing countries include; poor hygiene, poor sanitation, overcrowding, malnutrition, abortion, infibulation (like sewing the vaginal lips together perhaps when a girl, then wonder about why there is an obstructed birth), uterine prolapse (occurs when women exerts too much after birth, which is not consistent with a mother well supported by her village), poor hygiene/customs with traditional birth attendants (e.g. animal dung up the vagina), My wife and I conducted a lengthy interview with a translator to two Himba women in northern Namibia. One comment on hygiene that came to the mind of my wife: They wondered why women wear panties. They said their vaginas smelt fresh and nice, whilst ours get sweaty with panties. The implication was that their genital hygiene was better than ours. “Choosing based on something other than medical advice is absurd.” I think not. Given piles of time, I could unearth many examples of how this statement is not necessarily true. One story comes to mind is the man who against medical advice booked himself out of the hospital into the hotel opposite and watched comedies all day long and healed himself. However, also given piles of time, I could unearth plenty of people who ignored medical advice (for whatever reason) and it went wrong. So please be careful… Another book to consider is ‘The Continuum Concept’ by Jean Liedloff, a precursor of the Attachment Parenting movement. Posts: 49 \| Registered: Sunday, February 3 2002 08:00
Ash Lael E Equals MC What!!!! Member # 5491	written Friday, February 24 2006 15:10 Profile Homepage #164 quote: Originally written by Bruce Mitchell: To me it is absurd that a doctor is more of an expert about your own body than you (even more so a male doctor without any idea of natural birth bossing a birthing woman around). Maybe Monty Python’s ‘The Meaning of Life’ has an excellent skit about this. Excuse me, but that's complete bull. A mechanic is likely to know a lot more about my car than me, despite me being the one driving it. I just know how to work the car, not necessarily how the car works (and what to do when it doesn't). -------------------- SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice. Posts: 1861 \| Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
Dintiradan Guardian Member # 6670	written Friday, February 24 2006 16:04 Profile Homepage #165 By Bruce Mitchell: quote: To me it is absurd that a doctor is more of an expert about your own body than you (even more so a male doctor without any idea of natural birth bossing a birthing woman around). Maybe Monty Python’s ‘The Meaning of Life’ has an excellent skit about this. That's right. They're only studied the human body for... what... how many years in school? -------------------- Galahad: They're doctors? Zoot: They have a basic medical training, yes. - The Quest for the Holy Grail Posts: 1509 \| Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Friday, February 24 2006 17:26 Profile Homepage #166 What can you tell me about how your pancreas works, how it can stop working, and what can be done about it? How about liver? Are you up to date on the lymphatic system? Being human doesn't make you an expert on being human at all. Instincts are fine things, but they are a product of evolution, which has nothing to do with medical understanding. Of course there are hospital horror stories. They represent a minute fraction of the number of births in hospitals. Humans screw up. Doctors are human. They don't screw up all the time, though, and they certainly don't screw up more than other people who might deliver babies. In "wise, untouched cultures" infant mortality tends to depend on the level of hygiene and nutrition, much like it does anywhere else. In animals, birth depends on the animal. In some delivery is invariably fatal. In others it's infrequently fatal. Since they aren't humans, that isn't meaningful. Humans alone in the wild don't deliver as well as humans with help. Anecdotes aren't evidence. Numbers are evidence. (Yes, spirit of Synergy, numbers!) Medical advice is based on probabilities. If you have an infection you might get better and you might die. Your chances of recovery are better with antibiotics than without. One spontaneous recovery, or a hundred spontaneous recoveries, don't make this untrue. The doctors are the ones who know the numbers are can tell you what is most likely to help you. [Edit: For the record, giving birth at home has been generally shown to work just as well as giving birth in a hospital for normal births. Both have risks. Hospital infections don't happen at home, and unexpected complications can be cared for in a hospital.] —Alorael, who could, given enough time, put himself through college, go to medical school, specialize in the ailment he's suffering, and then make his own fully informed decision. Since that's a little inconvenient, he takes advantage of those who have already done it. [ Friday, February 24, 2006 17:37: Message edited by: No Passion Like Draft Passion ] Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
the horned slayer BANNED Member # 6554	written Monday, February 27 2006 08:50 Profile #167 do you know that babies don't get painkillers or anything becuase the docters think tey can't feel pain! quote: from the napolean dynamite( ah, geez idiot. -------------------- join me! we shall harness the power of geckos, bunnys, and fluffy pink stuffed animals and rule the world!!! Posts: 193 \| Registered: Wednesday, December 14 2005 08:00
Ephesos Law Bringer Member # 4153	written Monday, February 27 2006 14:13 Profile Homepage #168 quote: Originally written by arghhhhhhhhh: do you know that babies don't get painkillers or anything becuase the docters think tey can't feel pain! quote: from the napolean dynamite( ah, geez idiot. *DIE.* Okay, I feel better now. But seriously, stop reviving and spamming topics, arghhhhhhhhh. It's getting very old, very fast, and it'd be a shame to see this monument to Spidweb debate get locked. (And honestly, the random Napoleon Dynamite quote should be grounds for a temporary ban in itself... such things were banned by the Geneva Convention) -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 \| Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Monday, February 27 2006 15:48 Profile Homepage #169 arghhhhhhhhh just needs to be introduced to a place where spam is welcome without causing too much annoyance. Anyone know of such a place? Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Sturg Master Member # 4614	written Monday, February 27 2006 15:50 Profile Homepage #170 points to sig -------------------- -ben4808 Posts: 3360 \| Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Monday, February 27 2006 16:14 Profile Homepage #171 I thought of those places, but I didn't actually want to say them without permission. Now I can. arghhhhhhhhh, go visit RIFQ. They have a place called "spammer's heaven." I think you will be welcome and allowed to post crazy stuff as much as you want. No one hurt Dikiyoba if this turns out to be the wrong thing to suggest... Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Monday, February 27 2006 21:34 Profile Homepage #172 quote: Originally written by arghhhhhhhhh: do you know that babies don't get painkillers or anything becuase the docters think tey can't feel pain! Funny thing, that. A few decades ago it was actually true -- babies were routinely operated on with only a muscle relaxant and no anaesthetic, since anaesthetising someone is risky and they won't remember the operation once they grow up anyway. It isn't done that way any more, though, partly because placing an infant under intense stress (such as by performing surgery on it without anaesthetic) is likely to be at least as dangerous as the anaesthetic itself. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00