Eep! Christians! (Split from Christian Radio)
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Sunday, February 19 2006 22:41
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quote:Sure, but if we're assuming the existence of God for the sake of argument, then it's his fault that our biology is set up that way in the first place. Wouldn't it be simpler for all concerned if God just made it possible for us to be happy all the time without any effort on our part? If Synergy wants to call that an immature attitude, then I can only reply that his version of maturity is greatly overrated. [ Sunday, February 19, 2006 22:42: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Sunday, February 19 2006 23:30
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TM, I think I we have a lot of miscommunication going on here. As in, I am not communicating well. Religious/spiritual stuff is so loaded for so many of us, that it is also very easy for us to read things into another’s position or attitude. I’ll try to be more succinct. quote:We can’t help but demonstrate aspects of God Whose nature we share, yet have distanced ourselves from. I’m not saying God pushes empathy through us wittingly or otherwise. I don’t know how to qualify love or joy or peace or empathy in a person. I just know I see and experience something of God in it when I encounter it. When it is coupled with a heightened link to the heart and mind of God, it is all the more potent and reliable. [quote]GOD IS NOT A FATHER.[/quote]God will be what God chooses to be, and that is shown to be many things suited for the purpose. It’s all metaphor anyway to help describe a function, not some literal gender role. “I am that I am” is a statement that says God will be what God chooses to be. [quote]I still don't know what "privilege" (which I believe you previously called "authority") is.[/quote]Jesus demonstrated this. The privilege is to serve humankind with greater capacity, ability, and authority. It’s about service, not to rule over any other in any coercive way. I don’t get why you think I’m talking about something alienating or about the self and unto the self. I am fixed on the conviction that we are designed by God to be wholly connected and interdependent with one another, serving and giving freely to one another. The whole allegory of the “body of Christ” in the NT shows a picture of that, like all people being a cell in a collective body. For the body to be healthy, the cells need to be working harmoniously with and for each other. It’s not done till every last one of us from every time and place gets there. That’s the scale of the goodness of God I know. God provides the ultimate means for the “enlightenment” and restoration of all who have fallen into hurtful thinking and behavior. God sees it through in the end so that none of us is left out. Our training, growth, “work” as you call it, is so that we all grow up and learn to take care of ourselves, each other, this earth and everything in it, and then we’ll see what we have to tend beyond that. If some “grow up” into the ways of love secured by relationship with God sooner than others, it is only for the privilege and purpose of helping the other siblings to get there too. I’m not talking about any kind of individualized self-glorification or competition against each other. I’m not talking about ranks, elitism, spiritual caste-systems, or anything of the kind. I’m saying that for human beings to truly tap into the resources within us (through God) that enable us to love each other with unfailing agape love, we do have to overcome that which opposes us, and the worst of it operates in us and on us as our own mixed thinking and belief while cut off from the light found in God. God intends and ultimately accomplishes that for every last man, woman, and child who ever lived. There is nothing suffered or lost that is not ultimately supplanted by something joyful and purposeful and bigger. This would seem pointless if our comfort and joy were all God has in mind. But God has in mind much more for us to do as we join together and put away our metaphorical and literal swords. God made us all to do something fantastic and potent and God will see it through, even if it means resurrecting lives for further learning and experience or doing another work in the realm of “death.” I don’t see any human being in terms of being a ‘wrong-doer.” Christianity may choose to see people that way. God sees human beings as God’s divinely-destined creation, for now doing unfortunate things out of mistaken notions and ignorance, which are in need of correction. Moreover, God takes credit for this situation, for setting it up for us to go this route, and God makes the provision to redeem it all far beyond the sum what was lost or suffered. quote:1. Your examples are self-glorification, extreme money-making and dying for abstract causes. Pardon me while I wretch in disgust.[/QUOTE] Is there any human endeavor that is noble, necessary or worthwhile to you? Let me elevate the examples to higher thinking then, if corruptible worldly examples are too tainted for your consumption. We train to excel at something which is a blessing to others and a joy to us and God. We train to become able to heal and help each other on whatever level of need that is. We train to become strong defenders against enemies of lies and selfishness and false ideas which seek to steal our life and joy and ability to nurture others from us. As for approval, perhaps thinking of it this way is less offensive: it is approval by the measure of the law of love by which the spiritual universe operates. Do we measure up to what loving each other really means? The more we enter into the place where we can consistently love rightly, the safer it is for us to do so with greater ability and resonsibility. Jesus demonstrated restraint of his authority as one who was demonstrating this kind of love as an example to us. [quote]the goal is being enlightened, not the means by which we become enlightened.[/quote]If you mean insight or knowledge for one’s own sake, I’d say that alone will simply puff up the individual, which you were just railing against. If you mean be enlightened so that we can shed selfish and hurtful behavior and really begin working together as people setting aside all the petty crap, I’m with you. The means aren’t the point of it, but they are the necessary way to get to the goal. The more we go along with the means and embrace them instead of resist them, which requires some perception of the means, the sooner we are likely to reach the goal. The goal is to become unified as humanity through vital connection with God, the Source of the love and vision we need, and with one another, the place where so much of God’s nature is ministered to humankind. by which we accomplish all things together. I’d even suggest that in many ways, the two are the same thing: to be connected through love with other people is a good part of our way of connecting with God. Someone in the equation has to have relationship with the Source, like plugging in an electrical circuit. [quote][/i] My question this whole bloody freaking time has been "why BELIEVE in a god?" and now you're telling me that it really isn't relevant at all?[/b][/quote]I’m very sorry to be aggravating. I truly am not trying to do so in the least. I’m not trying to be patronizing or elitist. I don’t see anyone of us as better or worse than anyone else for what we know or believe. I’m not laying a claim to what I consider my own spiritual enlightenment to be or how mature it is. I’m sharing the vision and conviction resulting from my years of seeking God and truth and the means to love people all the better. We all desperately need to know God and connect with God which is a transforming and a connecting process both within ourselves and with other people. What I see in our discussion is we both desire something very similar, but are describing different means by which it can or has to happen. Believing in God is not something someone can push one to believe or comprehend. It can’t be proven or argued to any useful end. What happens is that God convicts people of God’s existence and goodness by the demonstration of the kind of love, joy, peace, and so forth that God brings forth in people who are connecting with God. I’m not talking about lip service to God or taking about God like we are doing here. I’m talking about the union of attitudes and deeds which flow from agape love which is from the heart of God to us and through us and for all of us. I’m not placing limits on how people find, know, or connect with God—that it must be through some religious approach. It is an active, personal process and experience, that doesn’t begin with the mind, but ends up transforming our minds. When God shows God to us through other people, and sometimes directly, we see something new and different, and we begin to know God. Belief in God at that point simply follows from the absolute knowing that God IS. [quote]This is why I absolutely, flat-out hate christianity- its believers set themselves apart on the basis that they have a superior set of experience than non-adherents! Or are you saying that you can "know god" without believing in it?[/quote]You despise Christianity for the same sorts of reasons that I despised and rejected the institution at age 16. Part of the grand lesson of the ages we are experiencing is how the very same situation which blights our earthly experience is the one which takes and twists the pure lovely truths of Who God is and What God does and seeks to comprehend it apart from the actual relationship with God which gives actual insight. It seems like you’re dying to find attitudes in me which just aren’t mine, based on belief. I won’t say they aren’t present in some form at times. I freely admit degrees of pride in me which emanate from lingering insecurities and mindsets of my past. I have a strong tendency to feel the need to overly defend myself when attacked. I write too many words, etc. Exercises like these dialogs help to show me things in me which need to be dissolved or released. I don’t consider anyone’s experience or status superior. There is only the timing of God’s restoration that happens to all of us ultimately, and it’s all a very unique set of experiences for each of us anyways. Those who have enlightenment or ability through God have been brought there only for the sake of helping others on their path. It’s not based on any merit of ours that some experience some thing sooner and others later. From my previous statement, you may guess that I will say that to know God IS to believe in God...not the mere existence of God, but to believe in Who God Is. To know God at all experientially is to come into some understanding of the qualities of God which include faithfulness, purposefulness, economy, wisdom, and so on. Conversely, to believe in God is worthless by itself. Completely worthless. [quote]So you're saying that we can't do good until we do god's good?[/quote]There is only God’s good. Our estimation of what is good and evil is what cut us off from God in our own minds in the first place and got us into this mess. God’s good is that which achieves God’s will for us. Our good is whatever we deem good at the present with our limited insight. What we choose as “good” apart from God’s insight, is just as likely to run against God’s purpose as with it. That is why we are instructed to let go of our self-constructed realm of “the knowledge of good and evil” and reconnect with God where we know what is right for right here right now, not merely what we might errantly deem “good.” [quote]I guess atheists are disowned cousins then, huh?[/quote]Not in the least. Sisters and brothers who haven’t yet encountered whatever will experientially acquaint them with God. It’s no charge against them at all. [quote]Your whole ideology revolves around the idea that humanity is eternally wrong. [/quote]Neither eternally nor “wrong.” The fulfillment of the potential of humanity is temporally buried under a number of false conceptions, which have had drastic consequences. A lie that is wholly a lie is easy to separate out. A lie which is comprised of much truth makes a real mess. We have a lot of truth and insight and wisdom, but it’s been mixed up with damaging ideas and in need of some sorting out from yeah, a Higher Source. We need some help to help ourselves out of our mess. And we are getting it and will get even more of it as history progresses. Humanity is destined one and all to glorious heights and achievement when we get our story straight and live it. [quote]God hasn't given ended disease because then we'd use our good health.[/quote]Disease is the result of things we keep doing to ourselves which result in dis-ease. This is pitiable and cries for assistance. For God to end disease, all strife and anger and hatred and fear and selfishness would have to be done away with in all people. It will be done, but it’s unfolding according to a larger plan and timetable than we like or understand. God has promised to bind all wounds and dry all eyes in the end when God is to have filled all things with Itself. To know God is to trust the promises of God according to God’s faithful and able nature. [quote]Working does not have any positive value.[/quote]The problem with work is that with the current state of the world, very few of us get to do the actual sorts of things we were made to do, as “work” or that have any real lasting value. Work ceases to be a chore when we are acting out of our innate ability and passion coupled with a vision to benefit people and not merely indulge ourselves. One of the most compelling rewards in connecting with God and being transformed in our understanding and heart by doing so, is that we become freed up and enabled to really begin doing the sort of deeds which fulfill us and bless others. [quote] quote:This is a contradiction- there is no punishment that isn't capricious. Deterrence is almost as bad..[/quote]I disagree that God’s judgements are capricious in any way. We see people act capriciously and vengefully and hatefully. What God does with judgements and corrections. Just because you don’t like being disciplined doesn’t mean someone in authority over you cannot and should not employ it when necessary. If we have no selfishness or lawlessness within us, there is no more need for discipline. Discipline really isn’t just to enforce “right” behavior either. It teaches us something of the reasons why a thing is right or desirable or otherwise. [quote] quote:So that's an excuse for this world to suck?[/quote]There is nothing to excuse. One day you will be very pleased with the results and acknowledge the wisdom and love and grace shown to you for coming through all this present suckiness. There is plenty that is not sucky available right here right now too, which you may even admit. It need not be deferred to the future world for any one of us. [quote][i]If god has the power, why not use it NOW?[/quote]Seek out the wisdom in the principle of delayed gratification. Meanwhile, we can help a chick struggling to break out of an egg and cripple it by doing so. Another example where our notion of what is good and helpful can actually be destructive. [quote]Just a question. Are you saying that god hasn't solved the world's problems because we aren't "mature" enough? The problems in the world are what make us (including YOU) "immature" and make us not believe in a god that, should it exist, has clearly abandoned us all![/quote]First, yes, I’m plenty immature, as moments like getting unduly hacked off at Kel will attribute. We haven’t solved the world’s problems yet because we are not yet sufficiently doing what will make us capable to achieve it. We have to solve the world’s problems. God doesn’t do it for us. Yet God does it too in that we only become maturely enabled to do it through connection with God which changes our attitudes, our visions, and our abilities. God does it through us AS us, because of what we have become through knowing God. The problems in the world are no obstacle to a person knowing and believing into God. It happens to lots of people of any conceivable kind. Something finally interjects into their life and experience and they get it. They see God. Something begins to change in them in that moment. Again, for the many for whom it has never yet happened, God has not worked (through people typically) to make God known to them. And the simple reason for this is it is not the time yet for all the masses of the world to know God. God is working through some people to do some things for now, with promises that this prepares for a far greater revelation to all. -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shaper
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written Monday, February 20 2006 00:00
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Slarty, I can’t win. If I more humbly throw in “I believe” and “I think” like my first post did, then TM chides me for stating the obvious. Now you chide me for not doing it. It’s a given that these are my convictions, and I’m not about to preface every statement with it. I’m speaking out of whatever degree of understanding my spiritual experience affords me. My posts are long enough without attempting to show where all the statements and perspectives on God have come from. I have no problem with anyone in confidence stating their conviction of what God is in no uncertain terms. I’m not even worried about the need to be right all to any particular degree. I’m sure I’m not, but I’m not “teaching” anyone facts here, nor do I see that things of spiritual value communicate in the same way that head knowledge does for us. Precisely because I believe in a spiritual level of connection and communication, and have some perception of how it operates, the surface form of the communication in some ways is the least important aspect. I communicate as I do with the experience and expectation that truths have a way of resonating in another person when it’s timely for it to do so. Sometimes speaking words just plants seeds which may take root later. I’m sharing a vision of God which is far from mine alone, and is far from perfect insight, but does offer some answers to TM’s sorts of questions which more traditional Christianity perhaps cannot. I am operating on the assumption that 99% of what I write will have no likely effect, and 99% of people who read it will derive little to nothing from it perhaps. And that’s entirely worthwhile. I’m not trying to prove any thing at all. I’m sharing a picture. I’m not rating the picture or making claim about the picture. If the picture resonates or causes an “aha!” great. I believe in the structure of the picture even as it will continue to evolve and revise over time. I believe the picture can sink roots by the mere viewing of it, to have effect even much later. Yes, I’m impatient and unaware of many things. I’m sharing what I am aware of and concerned with, and passionate about, and consider hopeful. When I speak of spiritual allegory in comparison to children, I speak of the ideal situation for children under good parenting, not the tragic fact that people sadly fall so short in that regard in our world. Do you think I have no compassion? I know you work in social services in some capacity. I’m thinking this hit a nerve with you. Children are precious beyond estimation, and I don’t mean to suggest there is anything wrong or bad about children—even in being childish, cognitively immature, or willful. It’s simply behavior to be lovingly guided towards unselfish behavior as the child grows up. That is what I mean primarily about being immature. It is little about attitude or fault or defect. It is simply about age. Think of the cognitive functioning and ability of a five year old, and think how a spiritual five year old might function. Every age is great! Nothing wrong with being five, ten, twenty, or ninety. It’s all just part of the process. We’ve got too many loaded terms which miscommunicate as readily communicate. Language is a very limited means of communication. -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
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written Monday, February 20 2006 05:44
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[quote=TM This is why I absolutely, flat-out hate ATHEISM- its believers set themselves apart on the basis that they have a superior set of experience than non-adherents![/quote]FYT What the pot said. That's not really a Christian or even religious phenomenon. Just what people do, really. Synergy, what Slartucker means is that you're giving a whole lot of cosmology instead of answering the question he and TM are interested in] Why Believe? What you're saying is a necessary consequence of your belief, not an argument for belief. Hence, their impatience. Slartucker's objection wasn't a political correctness one; you're just a little off-point. [ Monday, February 20, 2006 05:52: Message edited by: PoD person ] Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
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written Monday, February 20 2006 06:31
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quote:Very well, I shall contact your lawyers. :P Actually, in the English language, many people will use the pronoun 'it' to refer to neuter nouns. Go figure... quote:I am obliged to be disowned from the family of religious bullsh*ttery. TYVM. To my main point... I am a confirmed Lutheran. My pastor guided me to realize my own beliefs of higher powers during the path to confirmation. I figured it out then. I understood that because of people like PoD Person, akin to many people you see on TV and think "dude, what the hell," religion will always be far too dangerous. Religion ought to be done away with so people may live an undistracted, productive, happy life. The purpose of religion is not to get "closer to God" or "realize God" or any other such blithering nonsense. Religion is a social phenomenon that 1) brings communities together in a social atmosphere, 2) comforts those who fear death, creation, and other such uncertainties, and 3) helps motivate people (morally or otherwise). It never was about "God," especially one as recently invented as the "Christian God." It's pretty apparent that religion is causing a lot of trouble in the contemporary world and lets many people in positions of "power" do pretty morally corrupt things. As a visionary, I hope to help people understand that one only lives one life and one ought to make good use of it. You can have more fun being morally good than being morally corrupt. A life of hard work and kindness will make you feel better than randomly killing people, shooting up on heroine, etc. As a communist, it's difficult for me to come up with a solution to said problems. Difficult, but not impossible. I live a better life without a god or a religion. You can't say I didn't try it; by being a part of a religion I realized more how bad it can be, even though the congregation I am now an adult to (why not to the US though??) was very liberal and open. Hell, I used to be an acolyte and a dude who carried the cross in and held it in front of the congregation during the opening hymn. It was boring at times, but the people were so very hippy and enjoyable. I can mingle with them sans religion. So I leave you with the ultimate... testement, as it were, to atheism. My Savior, John Lennon's words. :P "Imagine there's no heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above only sky Imagine all the people Living for today, ah! Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace, you You may say I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope some day you'll join us And the world will be as one! Imagine no posessions I wonder if you can No need for greed, nor hunger A brother(sister!)hood of man" (Edit: Formatting) [ Monday, February 20, 2006 06:33: Message edited by: Semodius ] -------------------- --Dachnaz Posts: 50 | Registered: Saturday, January 14 2006 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
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written Monday, February 20 2006 07:47
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Neuter nouns also don't really connote sentience. Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
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written Monday, February 20 2006 07:58
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quote:I'm sorry, but I flat-out disagree. Why does someone have to have a relationship with "the Source"? It seems like that would trivialize the entire relationship by reframing it in terms of the third party. quote:I don't get why so many people view this kind of thing as simple rebellion, easily waved away as teenage angst. Could it be that people who reject religion are just trying to find a better way of thinking before they get jaded with life? After all, why not seek salvation on our own terms? quote:Pardon me, but I don't think humanity can claim responsibility for disease. Or was this just meant to be a play on words? If so, it failed. quote:Ouch... just ouch. This kind of stuff really hurts, because it seems to say "You're wrong, but don't worry. One day you'll see the light that is my overwhelming reason and correctness. You'll realize how completely and utterly wrong you've been." What about the people who die before seeing God (surely there must be a few)? quote:Fair enough, but I have an objection. I used to be Christian (heck, I'm a confirmed Episcopalian), and I chose atheism not because I think it's above any other beliefs... it's just my take on life. No concept of superiority, just that I don't believe in everything espoused by Christianity, and atheism works for me. I personally have no objection to people's faiths, on two conditions: 1) They don't abuse it or the system enshrined by it. I hate seeing people warp the few good ideas out of a religion (what ever happened to "Thou shalt not kill?") just so they can say they're right. 2) They respect others' beliefs, which some Christians (not many, but a disproportionately annoying few) simply cannot do. Ever hear someone say "I'll pray for you" when you say you're a nonbeliever? Not fun. quote:Agreed. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
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written Monday, February 20 2006 07:58
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Regardless: if you agree with the argument that you don't know God is male, how the hell do you know he's neuter? Answer: you don't. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
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written Monday, February 20 2006 08:05
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Ephesos - Funny, I've got the same qualifications for being okay with atheists. Slartucker - Being a linguist and all... is "he" the standard English pronoun for a sentient entity of indeterminate gender? [ Monday, February 20, 2006 08:18: Message edited by: PoD person ] Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00 |
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Councilor
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written Monday, February 20 2006 08:18
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Originally by PoD person: quote:I don't know if language is even an issue. Sometimes, people just assume someone is male in the absence of proof otherwise. Especially if there is a long tradition of assuming that they are male. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
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written Monday, February 20 2006 08:39
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quote:No. There isn't really a standard pronoun for such an entity, because, um, entities like that don't exist outside the realms of stories and religion. What you are probably thinking of is that in "proper" Standard English, "he" is the pronoun used to refer to an entity when the identity of the entity is indeterminate, and the possible identities may be male or female. In reality, Standard English speakers often use "they" in that place. Regardless, it's a different situation. For comparison: (1) When Paul Bunyan cuts down a tree, he gets tired. (2) When Queen Latifah cuts down a tree, she gets tired. (3) When the robot cuts down a tree, it gets tired. (4) When a eunuch cuts down a tree, he gets tired. (5) When a waitress cuts down a tree, she gets tired. (6) When a robot cuts down a tree, it gets tired. (7) a. When a farmer cuts down a tree, he gets tired. b. When a farmer cuts down a tree, they get tired. The corresponding situation with a definite entity would basically be Pat of "It's Pat!" on Saturday Night Live. The big gag was that Pat's acquaintances didn't know whether Pat was a man or a woman, and they were always at a loss when they needed a pronoun. There wasn't a pronoun for them to use. I know there are groups of English speakers for whom other rules are in place, like the trans community in New York. But those wouldn't be Standard English terms. An argument can be made that "it" is used to refer to someone whose gender is deemed completely irrelevant -- monsters are sometimes referred to with it even though they might technically have a gender. Pyrog is sometimes referred to with neuter in Ex/Av, for example. However, this is unlikely to apply to a Judeo-Christian-Islamic god who created man in [possessive personal pronoun] image; the divine gender may transcend our understanding of it but it is hardly irrelevant. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Monday, February 20 2006 08:50
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The most technically correct thing to do is to say, "he, she, or it" each time you want to use a pronoun to refer to such a god. This is clunky and cumbersome, but it is technically correct. Using "he" as a default has fallen out of favor over the past half-century or so. And while using "they" is common, it's not considered correct by anyone. [ Monday, February 20, 2006 08:51: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
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written Monday, February 20 2006 08:54
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quote:Since this is more or less about believing in or not believing in a Judeo-Christian conception of God, I think it's fair to talk about what the Judeo-Christian God is with the understanding that this is only true as if God exists. —Alorael, who still runs into the problem of Biblical literalism. If you can believe that the Bible is literally true, you're set. If you can't, you have no way to know the will of God. At that point trying to do God's will is a matter of deciding what you think God wants and then doing it. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Monday, February 20 2006 09:08
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quote:That is so not true. You have to believe the Bible literally means what you think it means and is completely true. Only then are you set. :P In all seriousness, there are parts of the Bible that simply were not intended to be literally true. There's that troublesome last book of the NT, for instance, which darn near calls itself a metaphor ("shows by signs," as Synergy and I have previously discussed). If you assume that the Bible is literally true, you still have to figure out what the blatant metaphors mean. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
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written Monday, February 20 2006 09:22
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quote:That's definitely not true. To avoid starting another stupid debate on pre/de, I'll just clarify that "they" is not considered correct in "proper" Standard English by anyone. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Monday, February 20 2006 09:25
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I like all of this arguing about knowledge, because it makes some of us, myself included, question how we "know" what we know. Fifteen hundred years ago, everyone who cared "knew" that the world was flat. Up until the rennaissance, everyone "knew" that the earth was the center of the universe. Up until three weeks ago, eveyone "knew" that Nico was a guy. Dikiyoba - sometimes, we need to put the kittens at risk. We just need to make sure that the risk is not unnecessary. I have a challenge for the people in this thread: How can we definitively say "God is", if the one thing that we've all agreed upon so far (out of those of us who admit to believing in the supernatural) is that God is above human comprehension? I have an answer which I believe will be acceptable to most of us in this discussion, and I'll give it, eventually. Though I'm sure that there is more than one answer... and I'm curious as to what others there may be... which is why the forum is open... -------------------- The Silent Assassin claims to be giving me the silent treatment. Which is odd, because everything is normal. -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Monday, February 20 2006 10:19
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quote:Eh, that's what I meant, yes. And when we're talking about what is correct in writing, that's the kind of English we're normally referring to. In order to clarify whether one means prescriptive or descriptive, it makes sense to me to use the term "correct" for prescriptive and "most commonly used" (or simply "used") for descriptive. It'd be nice if that terminology were standard. [ Monday, February 20, 2006 10:30: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
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written Monday, February 20 2006 10:30
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-Why you should care- With the pre-qualifier that God exsists, you should care because you were created, by something, for some reason. Your life has a purpose. Pain and suffering have a purpose. Death has a purpose. -Why Christians say they've had a supperior experience- (stated from my experience) Because I have. It's the very reason I am more then willing to be insulted, attacked, and hated. I found something extraordinary, and I want to share it. The best thing is: IT'S FREE, AND ANYONE CAN HAVE IT RIGHT NOW! You don't have to work for it. You don't have to change. All you have to do is accept it. -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Monday, February 20 2006 10:37
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Even that seemingly benign idea still suggests that this experience that feels good for you (believing in God, worshipping God) would feel good for everyone else, too. If I ate a particularly delicious leek soup, I might tell my friends, "Guys, you have to try this soup." If they tried it and recoiled in disgust at the taste, I wouldn't say, "No, but really, guys, you have to accept the soup into yourself!" -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, February 20 2006 10:46
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quote:That terminology isn't standard because those are not always accurate as labels. I don't understand all the intracacies that make things so complicated, myself, but that seems to be the reason no one has delineated things more clearly. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, February 20 2006 11:14
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quote:All you really need is any source of information you trust. Whether that's an interpretation of the Bible, your religious leader, or the aliens who speak through your facial hair, you're set. 1500 years ago not everyone knew the world was round, but most people were rather ignorant in general. The educated did know that the world was round. Our belief that their belief was that the world was flat is a rather new and false creation. —Alorael, who could have a superior experience as an atheist. Imagine the absolute freedom of living your life how you want without some superior looking over your shoulder. No cosmic boss! Just you and what you want! Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
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written Monday, February 20 2006 12:31
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quote:How magnanimous of you to participate in this discourse, and to share your divine experiences with us heathens! And I thank you profusely for backing up your point with such irrefutable logic... I find that I am instantly swayed to repent and give up my life to Christ. I have seen the error and inferiority of my ways at long last! </venom></sarcasm> Seriously, NO. That attitude is way past annoying, landing somewhere in the range of "please make it stop." It's not helpful, and it doesn't do anything to bridge the gaps between faiths. This kind of elitism will get humanity nowhere. quote:Kind of reminds me of those ubiquitous free AOL cds... not really useful, but free and easy. So then your description these experiences you speak of lead me to think of them as a cheap-cd-turned-frisbee. But really, no. Just no. I tried Christianity, I got confirmed, and then I decided it wasn't for me. As for the willingness to be attacked, insulted, and hated, that just sounds rather self-defeating to me. Wouldn't it be more productive to try and find common ground with others, instead of trying to convince them to go all the way to your side and experience what you have? And wouldn't it enable more cooperation than preaching (which can invoke attacks, insults and hatred)? quote:Glad to hear it, and I honestly mean that. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
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written Monday, February 20 2006 13:35
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quote:That example is really incomparable. I'm embarrassed for you. quote:Again, there is no room for 'if's' or 'could's' here. Either you have or you haven't. Ephesos - There is a HUGE difference between 'trying Christianity' and having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It's the difference between taking a gift to store on a shelf and opening it to use and enjoy. quote:I already know what common ground we have. We are both human, imperfect, fallible, mortal. With the qualification of God, we are both created, intended, meant to be. With the qualification of the Bible as God's word, we are both sinners worthy of death, and we are both loved enough to be freely offered life. Yet within this last qualification, cooperation, or tolerance if you will, is not acceptable. There is only one way. Thus why attacks, insults and hatred are expected. That I bring out so much ire in you for simply stating my beliefs only makes me think I'm on the right track. quote: -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Monday, February 20 2006 14:20
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Alorael, regardiny Pliny, which sort of Medium did you mean? quote:Jewels, if you are not interested in new perspectives, then why in the world are you engaging in a debate about religion? If your mind is truly made up and closed, then your presence is a little disingenuous. Why should other people be open to what you say if you aren't open to what they say? If you plan on interacting with other people in meaningful ways, that question requires an answer that does not rely an experience you have had that can't adequately be understood except by experiencing it. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Monday, February 20 2006 14:32
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Jewels: Atheism is the only way to be happy. I know this because I have experienced it for myself. You just need to try it too (if you think you have in the past and you weren't massively happy, then you were not a real atheist). Not convinced? Then why expect us to be convinced by the same argument coming from you? -------------------- Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram. desperance.net - Don't follow this link Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |