Eep! Christians! (Split from Christian Radio)

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Author	Topic: Eep! Christians! (Split from Christian Radio)
Ephesos Law Bringer Member # 4153	written Monday, February 20 2006 14:52 Profile Homepage #75 Jewels, I don't see what's wrong with Kel's analogy, other than the literal idea that few gods ever incarnated themselves as bowls of leek soup? quote: Originally written by Jewels: Again, there is no room for 'if's' or 'could's' here. Either you have or you haven't. ... I expect it's automatically better if your experience is with your God than with atheism. quote: Originally written by Jewels: Ephesos - There is a HUGE difference between 'trying Christianity' and having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It's the difference between taking a gift to store on a shelf and opening it to use and enjoy. Your analogy fails to impress me. After all, what if the gift is an ugly sweater from a distant and unpleasant relative? quote: Originally written by Jewels: I already know what common ground we have. We are both human, imperfect, fallible, mortal. With the qualification of God, we are both created, intended, meant to be. With the qualification of the Bible as God's word, we are both sinners worthy of death, and we are both loved enough to be freely offered life. Yet within this last qualification, cooperation, or tolerance if you will, is not acceptable. There is only one way. Thus why attacks, insults and hatred are expected. That I bring out so much ire in you for simply stating my beliefs only makes me think I'm on the right track. That's a lot of qualification... you do realize that, right? And I don't see why cooperation and tolerance wouldn't be acceptable under your God's words. And the end of that quote makes this whole gimmick of yours sound downright masochistic... seriously, have you ever considered that there may be no single right way to live? Have you ever had any doubt in your beliefs? Side question: Since I am an atheist, do you think that I am automatically wrong and hellbound? You see, prior to this, I was under the impression that pride was a deadly sin, and tolerance was a heavenly virtue. You're leading me to suspect that it's the other way around. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 \| Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Monday, February 20 2006 14:56 Profile Homepage #76 I stuck in the if because I'm not an atheist. For the purposes of this argument I'm atheist enough, though. I don't think God is going to treat us all differently based on how we act. I find this to be incredibly liberating and, yes, uplifting. "Trying Christianity" fails if you don't get that special rapport with the son of God. If Ephesos really tried and it didn't work, who is to blame? —Alorael, who was going for a Pliny between Elder and Younger. That would be Pliny the Middler, but Middler just lacks pizazz. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Monday, February 20 2006 15:04 Profile Homepage #77 quote: Originally written by Jewels: That example is really incomparable. I'm embarrassed for you. Good to know. Why? EDIT: And bear in mind that your answer should explain why the example doesn't support the main point that I was making. You've tried Christianity and experienced pleasurable sensations. You sound as though you expect everyone else to feel exactly the same thing when they try what you've tried. I'm simply pointing out that this is not a reasonable expectation. [ Monday, February 20, 2006 15:11: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Monday, February 20 2006 15:06 Profile #78 quote: Originally written by Jewels: That I bring out so much ire in you for simply stating my beliefs only makes me think I'm on the right track. Mindboggling. I could easily imagine all infamous historical figures uttering these words in sincerity. Lack of humility is not indicative of being on the right track, it is closer to being completely derailed. If there is a God, wouldn't that entity want people to exercise their brains, free will, etc. and explore all avenues? Multicultural monotheism seems to be the answer. Pick a Gawd, any gawd. Just be aware that there are 52 gawds in the deck and only one dealer. The dealer is not in the deck... this message sponsored by the atlas monkeywrench company -------------------- quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing. Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Bob. Lifecrafter Member # 6700	written Monday, February 20 2006 15:22 Profile Homepage #79 1. Jewels, Kelandon's leek soup example is legit. Some people love the soup, some people hate it, some will hate it and grow to love it. Some will love it and grow to hate it. But you don't help people develop a taste for it by shoving it down their proverbial throats. 2. Synergy, it is pointless, illogical, and counter-productive to present a spiritual ultimatum before someone who doesn't believe that spiritual ultimatums exist. 3. To the Christians At Large, especially the verbose ones... COMMON SENSE, PEOPLE. We're on a gaming forum. Most of us are the logical-mathematical-geeky-science types. It's not like you're gonna bring the house down with a Billy Grahm-type emotional experience. Heck, Rev. Grahm didn't even try to use emotion... 4. Meaning that instead of bringing up dogmatic and ambigouous bits of experience, you should be bringing hard answers and empirical proof to hard questions and high expectations. We claim to have answers. We need to know what they really are. 5. We cannot say that we have had a greater spiritual experience than someone else. Comparing individuals' spiritual experiences might as well be comparing individuals. 6. Here's the really amazing thing that most Christians don't seem to get... we (humans) don't have to do anything. Nothing. We don't have to care. We don't have to serve. We don't have to acknowledge God's existence if we don't want to. (heck, I could get on a whole sociological tangent here, but I won't) It's a beautiful gift called free will. We are simply asked to care. The choice is up to us. Therefore, some of us choose to care, choose to serve, choose to do what we've been asked to do. The alternative, as Christians see it, isn't pleasant. But the point is, we are obligated to nothing. 7. Ephesos, I like the AOL CD analogy. 8. In light of that, my young apologetics, momentarily consider apologetics akin to a holy marketing scheme (I am soooo gonna get eaten alive for saying that). I want you to stop and think for a moment... just because grace is free, does it make it worthwhile? Yes, to you, obviously. Here's the hard part: WHY? Why bother? Those AOL CDs get you into some pretty nasty contracts. Just because you're getting a free deal doesn't mean it's a good deal. What makes Christianity's "grace" such a good deal? Why bother with free AOL demos when you can pay for much more reliable DSL? Why bother with Jesus if you can find a more reliable source in Allah or Buddah, et. al.? Heed my warning if you will. Or not. It's up to you. -------------------- The Silent Assassin sent me a blank card for valentines day. I'm surprised that he actually thought of me. -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 \| Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00
Bob. Lifecrafter Member # 6700	written Monday, February 20 2006 15:46 Profile Homepage #80 quote: Originally written by Ephesos: Side question: Since I am an atheist, do you think that I am automatically wrong and hellbound? May I jump in and help you answer that question yourself? I'll try to present the answer in three simple yes or no questions. Bear in mind that these come from the Biblical Christian worldview. 1. Do you believe there is a God (a perfect supernatural being that created and is ultimately in control of everything in existence)? 2. If so, do you believe that you have ever violated this God's will in any way, shape, or form?(hint: if you have ever felt guilty, you have) 3. If so, have you made amends with God over all of these violations? (let's not get technical here, let's just say that you believe everything to be all good) If you answered No to any of these three questions, you are in violation to the will of God and must serve out justice by being punished for eternity. If you answered Yes to all three questions, there are a few technical requirements that need to be confirmed and/or completed (these requirements are part of a simple judicial process that pretty much confirms question 3.), and you no longer need worry about punishment because someone else volunteered to take it for you. This all came from the Bible and should be what every Christian believes. You have an answer. -------------------- The Silent Assassin thought this post to be too serious for him to say anything, but I am acknowledging his existence anyway. -------------------- -Lenar Labs What's Your Destiny? Ushmushmeifa: Lenar's power is almighty and ineffable. All hail lord Noric, god of... well, something important, I'm sure. Posts: 735 \| Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Monday, February 20 2006 15:50 Profile Homepage #81 quote: Originally written by Lenar Labs: 2. If so, do you believe that you have ever violated this God's will in any way, shape, or form?(hint: if you have ever felt guilty, you have) What, so you're claiming it isn't possible to feel guilty for doing the right thing? That seems like a pretty untenable position, considering all the things that some people can feel guilty about. quote: If you answered No to any of these three questions, you are in violation to the will of God and must serve out justice by being punished for eternity. Funny idea of justice. Mind you, I have some pretty funny ideas of justice myself, such as believing that evil people deserve to be just as happy as good people do, despite their contribution to the unhappiness of others. So we'll let that pass as a difference of principles. quote: This all came from the Bible and should be what every Christian believes. Chapter and verse please? [ Monday, February 20, 2006 16:01: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
PoD person Shock Trooper Member # 4445	written Monday, February 20 2006 16:03 Profile #82 t Lenar Labs my dad always tells me stories about a nun who would respond to plaintive cries of "do we have to?" with "the only thing you have to do is die!" Also, I protest the implication that belief and rationality are mutually exclusive, and strawman arguments are not appreciated, as Thuryl pointed out. I think the best that any apologist can do nowadays is to try and beat into people's consciousness that there are a lot of religious people without any inclination to proselytize or lord anything over you. A few peope out for money, power, and self-righteousness have misrepresented the concept as a whole. Posts: 293 \| Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
Ephesos Law Bringer Member # 4153	written Monday, February 20 2006 16:29 Profile Homepage #83 quote: Originally written by Lenar Labs: If you answered No to any of these three questions, you are in violation to the will of God and must serve out justice by being punished for eternity. Yep, I'm burning... :P quote: Originally written by PoD Person: A few peope out for money, power, and self-righteousness have misrepresented the concept as a whole. Agreed. There's quite a bit of good in most religious doctrines, it's just that centuries of repression, injustice, and ignorance have been founded on the objectionable parts. For instance, I realize that there are some good ideas at the core of Christianity ("love thy neighbor as thyself," etc.), and that some have used said principles to great effect in our society. However, I also happen to realize that Christian doctrine has been successfully used to support slavery, gender inequality, and dangerously dualistic thinking about the nature of good and evil. Not to mention some generally ludicrous punishments for things which shouldn't be crimes. Belief structures can do a lot more damage than simple ideas... -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 \| Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
The Immortal BANNED Member # 4	written Monday, February 20 2006 16:42 Profile Homepage #84 This topic has easily blown out of proportion. I will respond to the points that I find most objectionable by far: quote: Even with pure social justice, there would still be that pesky Entropy, always spiraling towards our inevitable doom. Physical existence is inherently unjust. Pain exists. If all people were to drop religion and capitalism in its tracks, pain would still exist. People would stub their toes. People would strain muscles during over-enthusiastic coitus. People would be crushed by machinery. People would get sick. Regardless of their worth as human beings. Excuse me, but "strained muscles and stubbed toes" does not make a case for eliminating massive bloodshed and trying to reduce suffering wherever it's seen. The goal is to eliminate all pain, and even though we can't possibly eliminate all of it, we should attempt to come as close as possible. Nobody will die for sake of a stubbed toe, but plenty will die from easily-preventable diseases and starvation on a daily basis. quote: In an absurdly unjust, and unchangable, physical situation, why not believe in metaphysics. Because it only makes things worse. All your flimsy excuse does is wipe this world's tragedies under the rug. Most forms of "enlightened" religion are bad enough- your take, however, is absolutely obscene. quote: God as a sentient entity isn't quite necessary as part of a just metaphysical existence, but a concept of good, independent of human consciousness, is. That is one of the primary reasons why I reject metaphysics. Why even bother with metaphysical understanding when it is not a force in the world in which we live? quote: IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, IT JUST SO HAPPENS THAT THE MASCULINE PRONOUN IS USED IN SITUATIONS WHERE THE GENDER OF THE ANTECEDENT IS NEUTRAL. I TRIED, BUT IDIOM SNUCK UP ON ME. SO SUE ME. Chauvinist pig. Ephesos: quote: (Did the reforms of the civil rights movement disappear after King died? I think not!) I take exception to this statement. quote: An objective reason? No. Guess not. I think it'd be considerably less statisfying if there was, too. Grandstanding for your faith is not as popular as you might think. quote: I don't think you can back that one up. You can make arguments that it has solely practical value, which would be irrelevant or redundant in an abstract, ideal situation. But working has value simply based on our biological makeup (production of endorphins comes to mind). Biologically, we are put together to be able to do work. Didn't I beat the liberal materialism out of you before? ~_~ If all we exist to do is reproduce, then you're doing a good job of not doing so by posting on this message board. Unless you're admitting that your genes don't deserve to be passed down, in which case I encourage you to kill yourself. quote: I just know I see and experience something of God in it when I encounter it. When it is coupled with a heightened link to the heart and mind of God, it is all the more potent and reliable. I have countered this already, and pages ago at that. 1. If you're saying that empathy can always be improved by believing in god, then you are being alienatory. 2. If you're implying that believing in god has nothing to do with human empathy, why believe in a god, unless there is something more important than empathy? quote: The privilege is to serve humankind with greater capacity, ability, and authority. It’s about service, not to rule over any other in any coercive way. Then I direct you back to countless arguments I've made in the past about god-and-empathy. Honestly, I'm more pissed right now that you've been tossing around words that you've given absolutely no context for. quote: For the body to be healthy, the cells need to be working harmoniously with and for each other. It’s not done till every last one of us from every time and place gets there. That’s the scale of the goodness of God I know. I seriously don't expect to get an answer for this, but why is god required in here? quote: Our training, growth, “work” as you call it, is so that we all grow up and learn to take care of ourselves, each other, this earth and everything in it, and then we’ll see what we have to tend beyond that. Let me give you a pre-emptive answer: NOTHING. quote: If some “grow up” into the ways of love secured by relationship with God sooner than others, it is only for the privilege and purpose of helping the other siblings to get there too. You have absolutely no friggin' idea how maddeningly egotistical this sounds. By the way, there's a booger in your nose. Which I can look into. Because you are looking down your nose at me. quote: Is there any human endeavor that is noble, necessary or worthwhile to you? There are many that (and should you have READ MY POST you'd have seen this) might be worthwhile, but NONE that are both ultimately necessary and not indicative of a failure of mankind. quote: We train to excel at something which is a blessing to others and a joy to us and God. We train to become able to heal and help each other on whatever level of need that is. We train to become strong defenders against enemies of lies and selfishness and false ideas which seek to steal our life and joy and ability to nurture others from us. See what you're arguing here? You're arguing that the "training" is good BECAUSE IT HAS A POINT. The notion that the training is inherently good is what I take an issue with! quote: If you mean insight or knowledge for one’s own sake, I don't. In fact, I'm not even vaguely sure how the passage you quoted has anything to do with that. Nevermind that you have yet to prove why empathy lies on the side of christianity in this debate. (That goes to all of you.) quote: If you mean be enlightened so that we can shed selfish and hurtful behavior and really begin working together as people setting aside all the petty crap, I’m with you. The means aren’t the point of it, So you're basically confirming [i]WHAT I SAID A REALLY LONG TIME AGO? AGAIN?[/b] Nevermind that this DIRECTLY CONTRADICTS your previous statement: quote: We, as the living agents of our Father will be the ones to save ourselves from ourselves because of the resources at our disposal through our connection to the Father and within ourselves as the offspring in the nature of the Father. How can we separate the two? The very nature of being human is to be of the divine family with its capacities as we grow into them. We can’t do it as independent children who have departed from the resources and protection of the Father. We have to learn to work as family. First, you were saying that the work had inherent good. Now, you're saying that the work has only extrinsic good. This is not an either-or situation. Make up your mind. quote: I truly am not trying to [answer the question] in the least. Then welcome to the pitfalls of my argument posted at the beginning of all of this. quote: You despise Christianity for the same sorts of reasons that I despised and rejected the institution at age 16. Bull. I don't object to the institution, I object to the whole notion. And heck, let's not limit it to christianity either. quote: Part of the grand lesson of the ages we are experiencing is how the very same situation which blights our earthly experience is the one which takes and twists the pure lovely truths of Who God is and What God does and seeks to comprehend it apart from the actual relationship with God which gives actual insight. The "suffering is ultimately good" argument is as retrospective as it is rationalizing and vile. Let me know if you doubt me. quote: It seems like you’re dying to find attitudes in me which just aren’t mine, based on belief. A thought process would be better, but okay. quote: There is only God’s good. Lovely. You still haven't read my first post. quote: Slarty, I can’t win. If I more humbly throw in “I believe” and “I think” like my first post did, then TM chides me for stating the obvious. I don't chide you for "stating the obvious." I chide you for saying nothing. (Although, I suppose, "believing something" and "saying nothing" are the same.) quote: What the pot said. That's not really a Christian or even religious phenomenon. Just what people do, really. So now you're using arguments of human nature to justify your pessimism? Or are you saying that there's no thought process behind my ideas? In which case, I'd like to remind you that my key points have been conveniently ignored. ... And just as an aside, if you need to assign a pronoun to god other than "it," you can use "s/he." But do not use "he." This is not a request. quote: -Why you should care- With the pre-qualifier that God exsists, This is where I stopped caring. quote: The best thing is: IT'S FREE, AND ANYONE CAN HAVE IT RIGHT NOW! You could say the same about my piss. quote: You don't have to work for it. You don't have to change. All you have to do is accept it. I don't have to change? But what about those precious brain cells I'd have to kill off first before being able to believe in such garbage? quote: That example is really incomparable. I agree. The leek soup actually exists. quote: I'm embarrassed for you. I hate you. quote: Again, there is no room for 'if's' or 'could's' here. Either you have or you haven't. And you clearly have (absolutely no sense of empathy whatsoever, you dried-out, miserable sack of lard and bitterness). quote: Ephesos - There is a HUGE difference between 'trying Christianity' and having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Right. One is attempting to find a place in a new religion, and the other is coprophilia. quote: I already know what common ground we have. We are both human, imperfect, fallible, mortal. And so long as this is all that we share, I'm okay. quote: With the qualification of God, With the qualification of my salty, briny, amber urine, quote: 1. Do you believe there is a God (a perfect supernatural being that created and is ultimately in control of everything in existence)? No. quote: 2. If so, do you believe that you have ever violated this God's will in any way, shape, or form?(hint: if you have ever felt guilty, you have) I feel guilty only when I haven't violated that egomaniacal barbarian's will. quote: 3. If so, have you made amends with God over all of these violations? (let's not get technical here, let's just say that you believe everything to be all good) I would sooner punch that maggot in the balls than oblige it with an apology. quote: If you answered No to any of these three questions, you are in violation to the will of God and must serve out justice by being punished for eternity. I would gladly take twelve eternities of torture over bowing down to your Hitler-jesus. quote: f you answered Yes to all three questions, there are a few technical requirements that need to be confirmed and/or completed Such as, "Are you an upper-class caucasian?" quote: and you no longer need worry about punishment because someone else volunteered to take it for you. Right. The third-world slave-labor force. quote: This all came from the Bible and should be what every Christian believes. It's also what the vast majority of insufferable barbarians nowadays believe. Imagine that. quote: You have an answer. Yes. A wrong one. ---- Honestly. I'm getting sick of this crap. This was a minimally-tolerable discussion before the pundits came rolling in. I propose we institute an IQ check before admitting people into these debates simply to keep the fundamentalists out. -------------------- * Posts: 6936 \| Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Monday, February 20 2006 17:14 Profile Homepage #85 Originally by PoD person: quote: I think the best that any apologist can do nowadays is to try and beat into people's consciousness that there are a lot of religious people without any inclination to proselytize or lord anything over you. A few peope out for money, power, and self-righteousness have misrepresented the concept as a whole. Agreed. George Bush and televangelists aren't representative examples of Christians any more than Rentar and her ilk are representative of vahnatai. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Or else o'erleap. Law Bringer Member # 335	written Monday, February 20 2006 17:22 Profile Homepage #86 quote: Originally written by Lenar Labs: Why bother with Jesus if you can find a more reliable source in Allah or Buddah, et. al.? Good question. The very same God is generally understood by Jews either to have no hell waiting or, at worst, a period of unpleasantness lasting no longer than one (lunar) year. You basically get to have your afterlife without fear of eternal fire. —Alorael, who now has to question why God would send His only son to bring a new variation on the one true religion to the people and, incidentally, a whole lot of burning and damnation. People say the Old Testament God is vengeful, but He doesn't do anything quite like damning multitudes. Posts: 14579 \| Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Synergy Shaper Member # 6292	written Monday, February 20 2006 17:39 Profile #87 quote: Originally written by Ephesos: quote: Originally written by Synergy: You despise Christianity for the same sorts of reasons that I despised and rejected the institution at age 16 I don't get why so many people view this kind of thing as simple rebellion, easily waved away as teenage angst. I didn’t say anything about teenage rebellion or angst. I happened to be 16 when I finally got fed up with the hypocrisy, confusion, and lack of loving behavior I was experiencing in churches, and went on a quest to find where the substance in my experience so far lay, because I had enough experience of my own to leave it undeniable to me personally that God is there. I didn’t know how Christianity or the Bible fit into that reality any more. [quote]Pardon me, but I don't think humanity can claim responsibility for disease. Or was this just meant to be a play on words? If so, it failed.[/quote]Humanity would do well to start being more accountable for the woes it invokes upon itself. I’m saying disease is the result of negative emotional and psychological states (more than we usually recognize in the west), bad dietary habits, stress, toxins in our environment, and other things which are all the result of us living selfishly or foolishly in various ways. Disease is something we have reaped for what we have sown, and we cause many innocents to suffer considering our choices affect a whole lot more than just our own bodies. quote: This kind of stuff really hurts, because it seems to say "You're wrong, but don't worry. One day you'll see the light that is my overwhelming reason and correctness. You'll realize how completely and utterly wrong you've been." It’s not in my words or my attitude. You’ve read that attitude into it. I’m thinking there is no way I can word it where you will not hear it the way you want to hear it from me, already having some image or conception of me. It would help to hear it from my lips, as I would say it perhaps. There is no tone in type. My attitude is A) We are all suffering (B) There is a way to overcome our suffering and find peace, joy, and love in life (C) Those who have begun to find and experience these things of course want others to be happier, healthier, and more fulfilled. (D) My heart is motivated primarily out of compassion and hope for other people (E) A smaller part of me is still concerned with “being right” or feeling proud about my knowledge. This is ubiquitously human and pride runs notoriously deep. It is also something that continues to change in my ongoing relationship with God. (F) Some people only have eyes to see E and not D. That’s the “evil eye” / glass half empty view, and I’m not going to indulge it any further. I’m in this dialog only because I was interested in discussing it with TM. [quote]What about the people who die before seeing God (surely there must be a few)? [/quote]I have already stated that death is no obstacle to God, even if Christianity, ever fixated on the natural and the literal, has built up the doctrine that your heartbeat and breath seal your “eternal fate.” God promises to redeem all creation, and the concern is with our souls, not our bodies anyway. I believe the promise and the ability of the One Who makes it, so I’m not worried about the details which I don’t know about. There are all kinds of ways God can fulfill the promises, but no one is left out of the redemption process. ... TM – If you want your basic points/questions addressed, I invite you to say nothing else but restate them as succinctly and directly as possible. You may not realize this, and I doubt I am alone in experiencing this, but a certain amount of what you say is difficult to reduce to your actual meaning or sentiment. I still don't understand your issue about empathy. I'd be happy to try to briefly and directly answer a brief and direct question. If you ask a question with terms that require definition, since words mean and imply different things to each of us, then I will insist you clarify them first till I am satisfied I even know what you are asking. If you aren't interested in one more streamlined go at it, that's fine too. The only other question I see you really harping on is, "Why should I believe in God?" I've already answered it at least twice from one angle, which might be something more like when/how does someone believe in God. The simplest why to believe in God is because God really is our means to overcome our selfish and misguided behaviors and ideas. Life is better in all kinds of ways for us and for everyone else in our sphere of influence the more we are spiritually transformed by virtue of relationship with God. But "believing in God" doesn't achieve this. Knowledge is nothing. I don't think about it in terms of anyone needing to believe in God. I think of it in terms of people needing to encounter and know God. Belief follows, rather than precedes. [ Monday, February 20, 2006 18:13: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 \| Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Monday, February 20 2006 18:04 Profile Homepage #88 quote: Originally written by Synergy: Humanity would do well to start being more accountable for the woes it invokes upon itself. I’m saying disease is the result of negative emotional and psychological states (more than we usually recognize in the west), bad dietary habits, stress, toxins in our environment, and other things which are all the result of us living selfishly or foolishly in various ways. Disease is something we have reaped for what we have sown, and we cause many innocents to suffer considering our choices affect a whole lot more than just our own bodies. Tell me what you believe to be the ideal way to live, and I'll list ten diseases that that way of living exposes you to. No lifestyle is safe, so blaming someone's lifestyle for illness isn't particularly useful -- you can pick and choose what diseases you'll be most likely to die of by changing your lifestyle, but there's no way to avoid getting any disease at all. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Synergy Shaper Member # 6292	written Monday, February 20 2006 18:11 Profile #89 There's a way. We're quite a ways from getting there yet. We can do much to affect both the quality of our life and the quality of our death in the meantime. -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 \| Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Monday, February 20 2006 18:12 Profile Homepage #90 Alternatively, you could go to Africa and cure AIDS by reducing their stress. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
PoD person Shock Trooper Member # 4445	written Monday, February 20 2006 18:13 Profile #91 This is all addressed to TM.. If you wish your points answered, it may be a good idea to give a recap; all I see at this point is a response to quotes. Tell me if I've summarized your position correctly: Near as I can tell, you evaluate a particular philosophy by its relevance to achieving a worldwide minimum of pain. Your ire is reserved for things which distract from that goal. In your eyes, belief in any kind of metaphysical reality is an excuse for inaction in physical reality. If I've got that right, the only one with which I've got an issue is the last. There's a reek of holier-than-thou about the whole thing, though. Your philosophical concept is just as much "fetishizing an abstract concept" as belief in God, you just don't give it a convenient name. You do quite well at deconstructing philosophies which you feel are beside the point, but yours, and your deconstructionism, is too. In fact, from here it just looks like the most morally unassailable pulpit you could find from which to harangue people. Like some sort of one-upmanship with Christianity. I also find your statement that work has no inherent value to be odd and out of character; after all, the entire reason you're here is the Blades community, a salient example of creation for its own sake. Now that that's out of the way. This seems the best thing to respond to: quote: Originally written by Prometheus: Okay, here. Let's assume that god is good, and let's assume that (like in the real world) it does not manifest itself in the real world. Following... quote: If such a god is not omnipotent, he becomes worthy of love, but to love it would essentially be to fetishize an abstract concept- history is filled of examples of when this will lead you astray. Nationalism, classism, racism, et cetera. There is no example, however, of when worshipping an abstract concept will lead you towards good. For example- let's take King. He was a baptist and helped fight against racism. He would certainly lay claim to say that his religion has helped fight intolerance, but not only did he study under the Muslim, Hindu and Bahá'í followers of Ghandi; his fellow baptists on the other side of the racial line were radically against abolishing the Jim Crow lines. Christianity was not in-and-of-itself the motivation for King's actions. Well, the very idea of a community of cooperating humans is somewhat of an abstract concept. The fetishizing of the abstract concept that is the common good is the basis for human society. I don't see how your final sentence follows from the rest of this paragraph. He seems to have been of Synergy's belief that the major world religions worshipped the same entity, so those trips were most likely an effort to understand the concept which he, himself, professed as a substantial part of his motivation. He saw the dignity of man as an integral part of his belief, obviously... Please expand. quote: Now, you might want to argue that there is a "greater force" or a "true god" motivating folks like King, but at the point where their main focus is the helping of actual people, why bother attributing it to a higher force anyway? (At this point, believing in a god is proven worthless. But I'll go on in case you're not convinced.) Well, since religion seems to have been a rather important part of both Ghandi and King's worldview, discarding it out of hand seems a little unwarranted. Seems that believing in an embodiment of abstract good helps people to behave in a selfless fashion. Rather than look at selfless action as a necessary consequence of religion, which is obviously not the case, I'd posit that religion certainly does not hinder and can perhaps be seen as an impulse to it. quote: If it is the work of a higher force, than are you implying that humans aren't going to be the ones to save humans? If that's your grand conclusion, then you're encouraging humans to accept the status quo as the will of god. ("If it hasn't changed yet, god hasn't willed it yet.") No, that's not what's implied. There will be no physical Deus Ex Machina. What I'll put forth is that belief has shown efficacy in getting people to behave in a cilized fashion. King's and Ghandi's movements were perhaps the most cilized airings of grievances in the past century, and they were religious men. I'll also say that humans aren't innately going to act for the common good. We haven't been corrupted by capitalism or religion. We were ornery to begin with. Some kind of social or emotional compulsion to behave is necessary, and religion seems to fit that bill. quote: And assume that your belief is that people coming together and doing good independent of a god is still influenced by a god. At that point, belief in god is humorously vaccuous. What point is there in believing in a god if the world is already fixed and the god is ultimately not the miserable, insecure, hate-mongering being followed by the majority of christo-cults nowadays? Do you really need to be convinced that there's something greater than humanity? What about people who do good in the name of a God? There are a lot of them. A whole lot. Your characterization of Christian belief is just wrong. quote: Is humanity itself not enough of a goal for you? That itself is where I find objection with the notion of worshipping. People should be the ultimate achievement of people. A maybe-existant deity should not be the concern of people, lest they be distracted from the main issue at hand- one another. The flaw here is that you find the two mutually exclusive. Belief is not nearly so pernicious as you'd have us believe. Would you deny the lower-class, those that suffer, what solace they might find in their belief? You may enjoy feeling indignant and wronged, but some without the power to change their situations may enjoy contemplating an abstract good, and what is good in their lives. Capitalism may have found a way to commodify religion and use it to sustain itself, but I think it's got a definite role in helping people to live together as you desire. Think of it as ritual glorification of what people find desirable in and expect from one another. --------------------- To your longer reply to Slartucker, about ethics. The human condition you set up looks like a Prisoner's Dilemma more than anything else. Humans are created principally by other humans, yes, but you already acknowledged that relationships can take the form either of mutual benefit or of "profit." quote: This is, essentially, why I feel that people are ultimately the ultimate: People are creations of people, and therefore profit the most when keeping one another's best interests at heart. Using the word "profit" here shows the weakness of your argument. There is no self-interest motivation for a person to prefer mutual benefit relationships over more beneficial (from his/er perspective) profit relationships. The ideal for the individual would be to dupe humanity into acting for the purposes of mutualism, and then screw them over, not act him/herself for the purposes of mutualism. Where's the intrinsic motivation to play it straight? [ Tuesday, February 21, 2006 02:52: Message edited by: PoD person ] Posts: 293 \| Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Monday, February 20 2006 18:27 Profile Homepage #92 quote: Originally written by Synergy: There's a way. We're quite a ways from getting there yet. You have more faith than I'm capable of. I don't mean that as a compliment, although I suspect you'll take it as one anyway. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Synergy Shaper Member # 6292	written Monday, February 20 2006 18:29 Profile #93 Contact with a virus is not the primarily controllable issue affecting whether or not one falls prey to it. The condition of one's immune system has everything to do with it. Much of modern medicine has this disease paradigm which echoes old superstitions, sadly. The paradigm also consoles non-accountable Americans who are ever eager to blame anyone or anything but themselves for the consequences of their choices and attitudes. We want pills to evaporate all our symtoms, and find it inconvenient when we get ill after running our bodies into the ground. Today, in the modern paradigm, the Virus is the evil spirit or swamp gas that "invades us and makes us ill" through no particular fault of our own. Lots of pathogens are around and in us all the time. There is probably eColi in the digestive tract of everyone reading this right now. For any virus, including HIV, you can only develop a diseased state with it when your immune system is compromised. All the things I listed previously affect the state of our immune systems. To challenge the paradigm further, there is the perception by others that the common cold is the most efficient way for your body to detoxify itself when run down. When run down even futher, even the cold virus doesn't work symbiotically with the body to cleanse it and slow it down to recover. (Drugs keep us from slowing down and recovering properly.) Really sick people are beyond getting colds and more deadly disease may lurk around the corner. I embrace colds, and they remind me I have been neglecting balanced care for myself. Thurly – I'll take it as a compliment. I'd like to think the best about you if possible. [ Monday, February 20, 2006 18:30: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 \| Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Monday, February 20 2006 18:29 Profile Homepage #94 "He said he could move the world if he only had a place to stand." Jesus? No, Archimedes! (TM) quote: Didn't I beat the liberal materialism out of you before? No, I never had any in me. Though maybe I'm not thinking of quite what you mean by liberal materialism. What do you mean by it? (Synergy) quote: It’s not in my words or my attitude. You’ve read that attitude into it. Bzzzt! No, Synergy, we've all been hearing that attitude. Now, it may not actually be your attitude. I doubt you are actually trying to alienate everyone. But that really is how it sounds. It IS in your words, even if you don't mean it to be. quote: I’m in this dialog only because I was interested in discussing it with TM. But, and this is directed at both of you, there is no discussion going on! You're just talking at each other. Edit: Synergy, that post about medicine is ridiculous. You're right that personal care and balanced lifestyles are neglected in our culture, but that hardly invalidates what we know about viruses and infections. Yes, sometimes we get sick because we haven't been taking care of ourselves. And sometimes we get sick because THERE IS STUFF IN THE WORLD THAT CAN HURT US AND WE AREN'T IMMUNE TO THE WORLD. [ Monday, February 20, 2006 18:36: Message edited by: Slartucker ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Monday, February 20 2006 18:32 Profile Homepage #95 Synergy: I don't deny that there are things one can do to reduce one's risk of contracting a disease. I do deny that there's a way to reduce that risk to zero. Sometimes bad things just happen despite everyone's best efforts to prevent them. [ Monday, February 20, 2006 18:37: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Synergy Shaper Member # 6292	written Monday, February 20 2006 18:34 Profile #96 Who made Slarty the dialog policeman around here? I picture you in a referee outfit blowing the whistle at every perceived foul. You've been commenting a lot on my attitude or how I am going about my conversations. Why do you care what I do so much? Its starting to come across as sounding really self-righteous to me now. ADD: Is there anyone else who sees that aspects of medicine and science are just as religious in their belief system as philosophy and spirituality? I don't "believe" what "the experts" tell me as absolute, infallible authorities. These are the same people who assured us that asbestos was safe, approve toxic substances like aspartame, and put pesticides on our food.These are the same people who waffle back and forth endlessly whether or not meat or carbohydrates are best for us or bad for us, whether eggs are good or bad, whether salt is good or bad. It's all people, and people are limited, biased, fallible, and FUNDED by somebody and some interest. [ Monday, February 20, 2006 18:40: Message edited by: Synergy ] -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 \| Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Slarty Raven v. Writing Desk Member # 261	written Monday, February 20 2006 18:40 Profile Homepage #97 Originally, it was because I thought you had good things to say, and felt that your righteous rhetoric was making it hard to see them. At this point, I've given up trying to see them and am just annoyed by the damn attitude. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 \| Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
PoD person Shock Trooper Member # 4445	written Monday, February 20 2006 18:44 Profile #98 Synergy: Oh, really. Medicine, engineering, and architecture are about translating thought to action, and philosophy and spirituality are about thought. There's a big difference. [ Monday, February 20, 2006 18:47: Message edited by: PoD person ] Posts: 293 \| Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
Synergy Shaper Member # 6292	written Monday, February 20 2006 18:45 Profile #99 You being annoyed by me in particular also says something about you and your buttons. I'm curious why you don't get half as visibly annoyed at TM who pours abuse onto nearly everyone openly and scares off newbies? There is all kind of "imperfect" attitude here, heated debate, passion, anger, whatever. It's the nature of dialog and debate and I'm frequently less worried about how "nicely" or "humbly" someone appears to make their point than actually listening to their point and esteeming them despite their abrasive aspects. -------------------- A4 Item Locations A4 Singleton G4 Items List G4 Forging List The Insidious Infiltrator Posts: 2009 \| Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00