Our President
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Agent
Member # 5814
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 07:41
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Okay... 1) Bush said there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. Whether or not they were found, Saddam's a creepy guy and he probably had something hidden up someone's something or other. I just wish his excuse was something more like, "Saddam must be removed because he has dome some really evil ****". 2) Bush can pray all he wants, but he can't say, "Please, God, we are liberating these Muslims because you told us to", which is pretty much what's going on. 3) The united forces (or whatever the hell they're calling themselves now) in Iraq are provoking more terrorists to blow themselves up than before they went in to remove those terrorists. 4) The U.S. screwed over just about everyone in the Middle East because we need their oil. If we hadn't, I'm quite confident terrorism as we know it wouldn't be so widespread or powerful. Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 4682
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 07:48
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quote:I also agree with Michael Moore's view on Bush, and would like to point out that you left out a reason he went to Iraq-to avenge his father. *shakes head sadly at the stupidity of those in power* -------------------- If anyone ever asks you why you did something, say "Because I could". Posts: 834 | Registered: Thursday, July 8 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 32
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 07:58
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I wonder what will happen when we don't need oil anymore... -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 08:21
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...or, more poignantly, when there's no more oil. I think the answer to this is that the Middle East will become as important to the US as Africa is now - not important at all. What did we do about Rwanda? What are we doing now about Sudan? Almost nothing. The upshot of this is that we won't be meddling in the Muslim world anymore, which seriously reduces any credible reason the extremists have to lay blame at the US' feet. I think by that time, however, this whole thing will have worked itself through, probably for ill, mostly for the Muslims. If the US gets too worked up, it stops caring about innocent civilians - see e.g. World War II (Nagisaki, Hiroshima, Tokyo), the Korean War, the Vietnam War. [ Wednesday, August 03, 2005 08:22: Message edited by: Drew ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 08:55
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Don't start this civilians crap. Especially when talking about Japan in WW2. EVERY loyal Japanese citizen was an enemy. A land invasion was simply retarded, seeing as EVERY Japanese would be fighting with no surrender. Women, children, all of them. Then we lose countless troops. And then you morons blame our government for not dropping the bombs and saving our boys. It's an endless cycle because some people just can't seem to gauge the importance of destroying our enemy to save our own hides. Draw your own parallels. -------------------- The critics agree! Demonslayer is "a five star hit!" raves TIMES Weekly! "I've never heard such thoughtful comments. This man is a genious!" says two-time Nobel Prize winning physicist Erwin Rasputin! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 32
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 10:03
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While we may have been forced to do that at the time, I believe Drew is pointing out that now we have much more options to choose from... -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 10:30
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quote:Please. This really isn't like you. -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "Really, Spiderweb is just a big, steaming pool of estrogen." --- Robin Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 10:53
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As I understand the history, demonslaeyr is basically right that an invasion of Japan would have been more gruesome for both sides than the atomic bombings. But I also think it's clear that after years of war the allied leadership had essentially lost any real concern for enemy civilian casualties. The axis powers, and especially the Japanese, were even less concerned even earlier. The atomic bombings were arguably defensible as a means to end the war quickly, and the firestorm created in Hamburg in 1943 was a surprise (though the intention to devastate the city was certainly present). But the subsequent orchestrated firestorms in Dresden, Tokyo, Kobe and Osaka were deliberate sacrifices of huge numbers of civilians in order to attain comparatively limited military ends. The real purpose seems to have been to inflict enough suffering and grief on the enemy civilian population to break all will to resist. And there is ample evidence that this worked: a London blitz may bring a nation together, but the far greater destruction of a Hamburg firestorm makes people give up. And attacking the civilian population did directly hinder the Axis war efforts, even though the axis powers were no democracies, because workers who were killed or injured or made homeless didn't show up for work. If the bombed ball bearing factories could still notoriously start up again the next day amid the ruins, they definitely could not ramp themselves up to the enormous scales of the American military industrial complex, operating safely out of Axis bomber range. The fact that the WWII bombing wasn't pointless doesn't mean it wasn't horrible. Those were barbaric times all round. The allied bombers of world war II couldn't hit anything much smaller than a city, so they hit what they could. It was the great hope of the Iraq war that modern precision munitions would allow a 'clean' war, with very few civilian casualties. And as far as I understand, there actually weren't very many Iraqi civilians directly killed by British and American munitions. Somehow an awful lot of Iraquis seem to have died afterwards, though, at least according to The Lancet. I don't understand how or why, except that Iraq's infrastructure, both physical and social, turned out to be far more fragile than anyone anticipated -- though perhaps not more fragile than they should have anticipated. I was very hopeful, initially, myself. I thought it would be a good thing if every tyrant could learn to expect a quick barrage of cruise missiles. Basic human rights should trump national sovereignty, and dictators don't listen to diplomatic protests. Peace and justice through superior firepower. Never mind if the coalition powers didn't only go into Iraq for peace and justice: if we can get this thing to work for strategically attractive countries, we can work on adapting it to poorer countries next. I still like the concept; it just doesn't seem to have worked very well in practice. At least not yet. Maybe someday. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1558
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 10:58
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Yeah, now I am more cautious before discussing Iran, North Korea and Zimbabwe (and many other nations). I was very surprised at the way things kept going wrong. It seemed pretty amateur to say the least. [ Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:02: Message edited by: stranger ] -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 10:59
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I read an analysis a few days ago that said that after Okinawa, U.S. forces were not even considering an invasion of the main Japanese islands. Their next step would've been to bomb the rail lines in Japan. Here's the thing: most of Japan is very mountainous, and only a few spots can actually grow substantial amounts of food. The entire country relies on transporting that food to the other areas in order to keep the major cities fed. The Japanese navy was already sunk, though; the rail lines were all they had left. In other words, bombing the rail lines would've caused a famine that could potentially have killed as many people as died in the Holocaust. EDIT: Oh yeah, and the U.S. doesn't have the authority (moral or legal) to take out foreign dictators. We can oppose and bring sanctions and deal within the U.N. in order to cause diplomatic trouble, but invading for the sake of regime change is wrong. [ Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:00: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1558
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 11:04
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What about when crimes against humanity are carried out by some? -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 11:06
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Perhaps at the time, but not 15 years after the fact. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1558
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 11:09
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify the actions of this Bush. Isn't the problem: it's all nice and good for the UN or equivalent to decide to intervene when they judge it appropriate, but they won't come to this conclusion until it's too late or they won't be able to enfore their ruling? [ Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:16: Message edited by: stranger ] -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 11:19
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I don't see what's so sacred about national sovereignty. The international law about it is basically 19th century realpolitik, not permanent right and wrong. Invasion on the grounds that you're an abusive dictator ought to be fine, if you ask me. Invading a country and annexing it would be different, but effecting a regime change from dictatorship to democracy, and then getting the hell out, doesn't seem wrong in principle. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1558
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 11:24
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Just bloody difficult to pull-off. Sometimes I wonder just how much preparation went into the Iraqi campaign. Now the US is stuck there until further notice. Great, now lots more people hate Americans. -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 11:56
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I think that "liberation" as a cause for war is only just if the groundwork for a formerly extant system is there to spring back into place once the current government is taken out. Otherwise, what's occurring is really "occupation." Kuwait was an example of the former; Iraq, the latter. My point about civilian casualties above was this: when the US gets determined, ethics go out the window as we decide simply to make the "bad" stop. I'm not whinging about the sanctity of life, DS - did I even mention the a-bombs? Were they used in the other two wars I mentioned? - I'm just pointing out that the US has historically been really brutal, and that this same brutality could fall on the heads of malevolent and benevolent Muslims alike before it's all said and done, which I think fits the definition of "for ill" for that population. [ Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:11: Message edited by: Drew ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 12:13
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Simple answers to topic questions: Yes, I do support Bush, and I think he is a good President and doing what he can to keep the country safe, prosperous, and most importantly, terrorist-free. The War in Iraq was in response to a threat of terrorism (ie WMDs) and there's no excuse for a nation like ours that is easily capable of combatting such terrorism so sit on their butts and hoard their resources, saying it's none of thier business. Especially since they were attacked by terrorists already. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1558
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 12:15
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Doesn't that explain Afghanistan but not Iraq? -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 12:18
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Ben, there were no WMDs in Iraq, and no proof prior to the war that there were. In fact, there's a big investigation right now that may blow even bigger holes in the President's story - that the White House attempted to cover up this fact prior to the war. Although unlikely, Karl Rove may even go down for it. READ THE NEWS! [ Wednesday, August 03, 2005 12:21: Message edited by: Drew ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 12:24
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How many more times does it have to be pointed out to you, Ben, that Saddam Hussein, though a dictator, had no links with al Qa'ida, was not responsible for, nor involved in 9/11, did not threaten your country in any way, and was not responsible for the gasing of the kurds, as your own CIA confirms. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 12:34
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:/ WMDs were the reason we went into Iraq, and the reason we went into Afghanistan was because we were attacked by Bin Laden. Like I have said before, even though we did find no WMDs in Iraq, we saw the need to remove Saddam Hussein, whose activities you couldn't really count on to be safe. That and it ended the oppressive tyranny, and now we're helping to rebuild Iraq and get them going on the right foot. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 12:37
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quote:That's one I hadn't heard before. A quick Google search partly backs this up, though. For instance, this slanted but apparently fact-based article. Funny that you should bring this up when no one else has, though. It sounds almost as though you're trying to say that Saddam Hussein was not responsible for grievous human rights violations, which is patently untrue. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1558
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 12:40
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But, are those other things enough of a reason to do what has been done? The campaign was justified with WMD-fears. They chose to advertise this as the main reason. They must have decided that those other reasons weren't as good. -------------------- I'm tired of the strain and the pain ___ ___ ___ I feel the same, I feel nothing Nothing is important to me ___ ___ ___ ___ __ And nobody nowhere understands anything About me and all my dreams lost at sea ___ __ But we’re not the same, we’re different tonight We’ll make things right, we’ll feel it all tonight _ The indescribable moments of your life tonight The impossible is possible tonight ___ ____ ___ Believe in me as I believe in you, tonight Go All Blacks xtraMSN Rugby _ MuggleNet Posts: 1112 | Registered: Friday, July 19 2002 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 12:43
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Well, it was the main reason at that time. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Wednesday, August 3 2005 13:00
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And as we have come to understand, it turned out to be an incorrect as well as quite possibly a fabricated reason to justify the war. It smacks of groupthink and incompetence. [ Wednesday, August 03, 2005 13:01: Message edited by: Drew ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |