Karma and Bush, and also the WTC

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AuthorTopic: Karma and Bush, and also the WTC
Too Sexy for my Title
Member # 5654
Profile #125
quote:
Originally written by shell:

quote:
Originally written by Marlenny:

quote:
Originally written by Andrew Miller:

quote:
Originally written by Harlequin:

No matter what your oppinion is, a documentry is a documentry, it gives the facts.
Um, no. A documentary shows you what the director wants you to see. Fortunately for Michael Moore, many of his clips speak for themselves. Unfortunately for the nation, many voting citizens were too busy drinking the kool-aid to pay attention.

True. I couldn't agree more. New Yorkers were so angry at the elections. I mean, it took Bush 10 minutes to act after he knew that the twin towers were attacked. what kind of president is that? Anyways, this subject is too old, he is governing for 3 more years and we can't do nothing about it. Fortunately, he won't be in power ever again.

"Um, Mr. Bush, there's been a plane crash in New York." You are the president, what do you do?
1) Jump up right away and run to the warroom, "this must be a terrorist attack," you say "it's not like a plane ever crashes in the U.S. unless piloted by insane America-hating jihadists."
2) Realize that there's nothing you can do about a plane crash, and then leave once you learn that there is more going on then a simple accident.

Really, Moore, connects the dots that simply aren't there in his failed attempt to discredit the president. The only thing scarry about Farenheit 911 was that so many people were willing to accept the wild conspiracy theories it presented, just because it made for an entertaining film.

I'm not saying he should have run or anything, but don't just sit there while a plane crashed into the largest building of America (even if he didn't know it was a terrorist attack) many people died and it affected the country's economy; also he knew that it wasn't just a plane crash, it was a plane crash into the WTC, which makes a difference since more people were dead and the market was affected. However, I'm not saying that the movie was something that should determine one's view on Bush, but it did have information that should have been available to the public.

[ Wednesday, June 01, 2005 09:04: Message edited by: Marlenny ]
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quote:
Originally written by shell:

Really, Moore, connects the dots that simply aren't there in his failed attempt to discredit the president. The only thing scarry about Farenheit 911 was that so many people were willing to accept the wild conspiracy theories it presented, just because it made for an entertaining film.
What was so wild about his theories? I'll concede that there was more melodrama than necessary involving the dead G.I.'s mother, but the facts are there.
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Apprentice
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quote:
I'm not saying he should have run or anything, but don't just sit there while a plane crashed into the largest building of America (even if he didn't know it was a terrorist attack) many people died and it affected the country's economy; also he knew that it wasn't just a plane crash, it was a plane crash into the WTC, which makes a difference since more people were dead and the market was affected. However, I'm not saying that the movie was something that should determine one's view on Bush, but it did have information that should have been available to the public.[/QB]
The WTC is by no means the largest building in the country, the pentagon is, which BTW was also attacked that day. :) Anyway, the problem is you're speculating about what the president was told and when he was told it. Much like Moore tries to second guess not only what was whispered in the presidents ear that day but also what Bush was thinking. It's all conjecture. We do see a secret service agent tell something to the president and then a few minutes later he comes back and says something else. Perhaps, the first time he only said "there's been an accident at the WTC." and perhaps the second time he said, "there'e been several crashes, the helicopter will be here in 5 minutes." This is complete speculation on my part, but here's the point: ten minutes is not a huge amount of time. People are furious over absolutely nothing.

[ Wednesday, June 01, 2005 09:59: Message edited by: shell ]

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People are furious over a lot of legitimate things. That particular scene only serves to reaffirm what people expect from this president.

I think how people react defensively to charges against Bush by asserting (seemingly without giving it an iota of thought) that the man is beyond criticism is very amusing. I believe very thoroughly that no one, after all, is beyond criticism. I'll extend the olive branch this far: the man has done a pretty reasonable job fostering free trade, and I'm certain his intentions generally are good. Can you meet me half way?

[ Thursday, June 02, 2005 12:12: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Too Sexy for my Title
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quote:
Originally written by shell:

[quote]I'm not saying he should have run or anything, but don't just sit there while a plane crashed into the largest building of America (even if he didn't know it was a terrorist attack) many people died and it affected the country's economy; also he knew that it wasn't just a plane crash, it was a plane crash into the WTC, which makes a difference since more people were dead and the market was affected. However, I'm not saying that the movie was something that should determine one's view on Bush, but it did have information that should have been available to the public.
The WTC is by no means the largest building in the country, the pentagon is, which BTW was also attacked that day. :) Anyway, the problem is you're speculating about what the president was told and when he was told it. Much like Moore tries to second guess not only what was whispered in the presidents ear that day but also what Bush was thinking. It's all conjecture. We do see a secret service agent tell something to the president and then a few minutes later he comes back and says something else. Perhaps, the first time he only said "there's been an accident at the WTC." and perhaps the second time he said, "there'e been several crashes, the helicopter will be here in 5 minutes." This is complete speculation on my part, but here's the point: ten minutes is not a huge amount of time. People are furious over absolutely nothing.[/QB][/quote]I meant the tallest not largest building in the US, and I guess I'm just against Bush. I don't like the way he carries himself or the country. I do understand that it must bee hard to govern the US and specially after the 9/11 attack; nevertheless, i feel that the war in Iraq was a wrong move, and his approach towards why we were going to Iraq on the first place was not the right one. A president should be consistent and able to think this fully. If Bush would have approached the country and say: "we are going to Iraq because saddam this or the other" i would've understand, but we went because of WMD and since we didn't found any, Bush changed it to issues against saddam.

Anyways, this might be my last post on the subject, because Bush does not the deserve my time or attention. Also, I'm pretty tired of the subject.
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It was/is, simply put, not a just war. The case originally made for the war did not stand up, even lacking the benefit of hindsight.

In realpolitik terms, the answer to whether the war was justified is a bit murkier. I can see how on some levels it was. The trouble I run into here is the manner in which it was executed and has been carried out since "Mission Accomplished." Much of this has to do with the incompetency of administration officials.

[ Wednesday, June 01, 2005 10:48: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ]
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Shaper
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Profile #131
quote:
Originally written by Marlenny:

I meant the tallest not largest building in the US
It's also not the tallest building in the US. That would be the Sears Tower in Chicago, I believe.

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Too Sexy for my Title
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quote:
Originally written by The Almighty Doer of Stuff:

quote:
Originally written by Marlenny:

I meant the tallest not largest building in the US
It's also not the tallest building in the US. That would be the Sears Tower in Chicago, I believe.

Great I was wrong twice. This is getting anoying; nevertheless, the twin towers were 110 stories, 1353 feet (412 meters) tall (and some say, Tower One was 1368 feet tall and Tower Two was 1362 feet), so I thought that they were larger than the sears tower, but I was wrong.

[ Wednesday, June 01, 2005 14:18: Message edited by: Marlenny ]
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Shaper
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The Sears Tower is also 110 stories high, but it's 1450 feet, making it taller than the Twin Towers.

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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Too Sexy for my Title
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quote:
Originally written by The Almighty Doer of Stuff:

The Sears Tower is also 110 stories high, but it's 1450 feet, making it taller than the Twin Towers.
I know, I had them both mixed up, I thought that the twin towers were the ones that were 1450
feet, My bad. I guess I should do more research before posting. I'll work on it.
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Master
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Eh, sure, we found no WMDs. But we mays well take care of Saddam's terrorism, if not toward us toward his own people, once and for all.

Oh, and a direct terrorist attack on important buildings inside the US is definately a good reason to go to war.

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Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by 4.808 x 10^3:

Eh, sure, we found no WMDs. But we mays well take care of Saddam's terrorism, if not toward us toward his own people, once and for all.

Oh, and a direct terrorist attack on important buildings inside the US is definately a good reason to go to war.

Where did you get that Iraq made "a direct terrorist attack on important buildings"???, As far as I know it hasn't been proved (and yes, Bush claims that Saddam has ties with Osama; Nevertheless, Bush has ties with the Bin Laden family as well). In addition, the US cannot decide to destroy the Iraqis government based on its belief on democracy, I mean did the Iraqis asked for the US to get rid of Saddam??? I don't think so. One can say that it's similar to Cuba, Yes, Fidel Castro is a horrible leader and a known communist, yet most Cubans agree with his government.

Edit:I just think that Bush should concentrate on the United States instead of Iraq. We have a lot to worry with the increase on unemployment and the decrease of Medicaid/Medicare and social security founds.

[ Wednesday, June 01, 2005 16:22: Message edited by: Marlenny ]
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Shaper
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I really want to stay out of this discussion for obvious reasons, but I would like to comment on this…

9/11 was claimed to be osama bin laden, not Saddam. Bush was unable to find bin laden and it made him look bad, and with elections coming up he had to keep America under his thumb. Bush senior had his own issues with Saddam, and that likely had an influence on the situation as well.

I am not disputing that Saddam was a terrorist, or that he had to be removed from power, but Bush's timing and motives were not for the good of the Iraqi people. For that matter once Saddam was removed from power we should have started leaving Iraq. We are still there, and we are going to say there because Bush wants that oil. It all goes back to the oil.

For those of you who say that everything is a conspiracy theory and Bush has the world's best interests at heart, the word brainwashed comes to mind.

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Shaper
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otc

[ Wednesday, June 01, 2005 18:20: Message edited by: VCH ]

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Ben, get your head examined. SADDAM HUSSEIN WAS IN NO WAY LINKED TO THE ATTACKS OF SEPTEMBER 11.

You think it was a good idea to go to war to eliminate Saddam Hussein essentially because he's a bad guy. What about the Sudan? What about Myanmar? What about North Korea, where people are starving to death? Why isn't your god-fearing president taking action? How can you use this rationale as justification for war, and ignore these other travesties? How can you abide by this hypocrisy?

Why don't you join up? Obviously your patriotic torch is burning brightly, and your love of God and country make you a perfect candidate for senseless brutality in unjust war theaters. Uncle W. wants you!

[ Thursday, June 02, 2005 04:52: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ]
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Guardian
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It's frightening how very little time it takes to turn a myth into accepted truth.

And 9/11: there are a lot of questions and doubts as to what precisely hit the Pentagon. A Boeing seems the most unlikely answer.

Away from that you'll find specialists enough who'll tell you that the twin towers could never have come down the way they did without controlled demolition.

[ Thursday, June 02, 2005 05:02: Message edited by: ef ]

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Arguing with Nooben is kind of useless. I mean, he is a blind zealot.

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About Farnheit 9/11, or any other propaganda movie for that matter, there is nothing you can't prove with a large pile of footage and a good editing job. That's the whole point of a propaganda movie: to make your side look good and the other side look evil.

However, while the movie was a huge success in terms of getting a lot of money for Michael Moore, it didn't have much effect on election itself: those who already hated Bush didn't need it and those who liked Bush dismissed it as left-wing propaganda.
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As for various conspiracy theories, there are theories that: Egyptian Pyramids were built by aliens; US government carried out teleportation experiments in 40s and 50s; there is a crashed flying saucer hidden in a US military base; there are several secret societies each of which is supposedly controlling the world, etc.

The theory that 9/11 was Bush's plot to take over the world is so convenient for many people's political views, that they will want to believe it regardless of it's plausibility. (All other conspiracy theories I've listed have just as much proof as this one.)

[ Thursday, June 02, 2005 12:25: Message edited by: Zeviz ]

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I find the assertion that the Twin Towers were not brought down by airplanes to be frankly incredible - I mean, millions of people watched it happen.

The Pentagon is more worth looking into.

They say even paranoids have enemies, and it's true; even though the conspiracy theorists are mostly idiots who believe Bush was going to declare himself Emperor of the First Galactic Empire immediately after the attacks, they might have gotten a few things right.

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quote:
I find the assertion that the Twin Towers were not brought down by airplanes to be frankly incredible - I mean, millions of people watched it happen.
Oh yes, of course we all saw that happen. What I'm refering to are those layers and layers of dust, you remember them? Pulverized concrete, that would otherwise have come down in chunks and pieces. That type of demolition needs explosives of a very specific kind and is not typical for plane crashes. I'm not striving to contribute to any conspiracy, I just doubt that the planes were responsible for the towers' collapse.

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It may have had more to do with the sheer amount of mass and heat subsequently generated. Remember also that concrete essentially is dust, minus water.
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Loaded with enough fuel and packed in a metal shell, a plane should behave just like a bomb when it hits a building. I'm willing to believe the thing about the WTC; these skyscrapers are very complex structures, where small damage in a key place could destabilize the whole thing. This would just indicate that a whole lot of planning went into it.

I've seen the Pentagon photos and explanations, and I have my doubts. The only question I have is what motivation anyone would have to fake an attack on the Pentagon: Wouldn't the WTC alone have been sufficient to justify any plans they might have hatched?

One thing I'm sure about: They (ie. Intelligence/Defense) knew in advance. They had adequate warning, and they were informed about these plans at least a few days if not weeks before they were carried out. And that alone, fake Boeing or no, is highly suspicious.

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The twin towers imploded. No bomb and no plane is able to cause an implosion. Implosion is a technique used to blow up and pulverize multi-floor buildings in a controlled fashion.

The market leader for this type of demolition is Controlled Demolition Inc., to who the the towers' rubble was sold and who were asked to remove it.

[ Thursday, June 02, 2005 14:13: Message edited by: ef ]

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Off With Their Heads
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No, the planes didn't topple the towers directly. The planes created fires that melted/weakened the metal supports that then made the towers collapse. This has been well-known since a few hours after it happened.

If the collision had actually caused the destruction, the towers would've fallen on their sides immediately after impact. It would've taken a heck of a lot more force to do that.

EDIT: A source: http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/latest/wtc.php

[ Thursday, June 02, 2005 14:38: Message edited by: Thurylandon ]

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Professionals around here have their doubts.

Kerosine fires reach temperatures between 1110 F to 1740 F (950°C).
Steel melts at 2890 F (1588°C).
The usual forging temperature for steel lies between 2000-2550 F (1400°C).

The quantity of gasoline does not heighten a fire's temperature. It burns longer with more gasoline, but not hotter.

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