RPG Recommendations

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AuthorTopic: RPG Recommendations
BANNED
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quote:
Originally written by [b:
Kelandon[/b]]
It claims, "Deus Ex combines elements of a 3D shooter with RPG traits."

After a glance at the site, though, I tend to agree with you. I like RPGs. I don't like FPSs. I don't think I'd like Deus Ex. Therefore, it seems like more of a FPS than a real RPG. :P
It is more of an FPS. In fact, I'm not really sure where they got the RPG part of it.

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One Thousand Slimy Things
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quote:
Originally written by -:

[quote=[b]Kelandon]
It claims, "Deus Ex combines elements of a 3D shooter with RPG traits."

After a glance at the site, though, I tend to agree with you. I like RPGs. I don't like FPSs. I don't think I'd like Deus Ex. Therefore, it seems like more of a FPS than a real RPG. :P
It is more of an FPS. In fact, I'm not really sure where they got the RPG part of it.[/b][/quote]It has characters and something you can call a plot. The requirements for being a RPG are not exactly very high these days.

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Law Bringer
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Deus Ex is a game that involves role-playing. That does not mean it fits in with the game genre of RPGs, which are not, in fact, always about roleplaying at all.

—Alorael, who wouldn't even say that the Exile/Avernum games involve role playing. You don't have a role, you just kill stuff and complete quests. They're still called RPGs because they use the elements common to RPG games.
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Warrior
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What do you mean? That is your role. You express yourself through an avatar in a fantasy world. That is the essence of roleplaying.
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Warrior
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Seems RPG enough to me... turn based battles, experience points, special abilities of some sort, you're out to save the world, you have to equip weapons and armor... it's like a less flashy Final Fantasy Tactics. RPG/Strategy hybrid.
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Warrior
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quote:
Originally written by loserclassof06:

Seems RPG enough to me... turn based battles, experience points, special abilities of some sort, you're out to save the world, you have to equip weapons and armor... it's like a less flashy Final Fantasy Tactics. RPG/Strategy hybrid.
I like how none of those are inherent qualities of an RPG. Not a single one.
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Guardian
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Djur is too right this time.

Firstly, as already said (I'm just backing it up), the "qualities" you suggested are in no way central to the RPG.

On Deus Ex: DX is an RPG because it contains what RPGs contain: it is plot centric, and, involves character development (not just you, those around you [NPCs]).

I think we can all agree that those two ^^ define the definition of an RPG. Skills, stat points, all that hoot-n-holler was added in to make things interesting, and to make character development easier (and more meaningful).

Uh... regardless, Deus Ex (1!! not 2) is a great game whether or not you classify it as an RPG. Go get it if you don't believe me.

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Warrior
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Plot isn't a required focus for RPGs either. Look at Daggerfall -- it's a classic RPG, and it's got the plot of a poo poking. Hell, you can miss the plot entirely if you're lazy.

The sole requirement of an RPG is that your avatar takes a role, small or large, in an ongoing metanarrative. Your choices must have an effect on your role in this narrative, although they perhaps do not affect the narrative itself. The focus is on the role, and character takes a back seat.

In an RPG, what you do is more important than who you are. The identity of the PC is only what the player imposes on it.

[ Monday, December 20, 2004 17:26: Message edited by: The Dog And Pony Show ]
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Warrior
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I know they aren't central in any way, but the RPG's that i've been playing since I was born pretty much followed those guidelines. The entire Final Fantasy series, excluding the ones from the past few years. Earthbound. Super Mario RPG. Breath of Fire 1, 2, and 3 (haven't played 4 or 5). Dungeons of the Unforgiven. The older Ultima games. Even Megaman X: Command Mission. The stuff from my above post are pretty much the qualities that separated those games from Action/Adventure games like Zelda.
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Warrior
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Final Fantasy is not a role-playing game.
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Warrior
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Slice that off the list and you've still got a relatively solid chunk of games.
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Warrior
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Or most games of its related genre, such as BoF, Chrono Trigger, and most other so-called "Japanese-style RPGs".

[ Monday, December 20, 2004 18:26: Message edited by: The Dog And Pony Show ]
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Shock Trooper
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Then what genre would you put those games in? The definition of RPGs has become very muddled over the years, to the point where I don't think you can really say there is a single clear-cut definition.

In answer to the topic creator's question, Knights of the Old Republic is good. What consoles do you own, if any?

[ Monday, December 20, 2004 19:11: Message edited by: Jawaj ]

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Law Bringer
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I would say that RPG games are no longer at all tied to role-playing, so loserclassof06's list of characteristics is valid. A role-playing game is something else entirely, and while it may be an RPG as well, it need not be.

—Alorael, who doesn't see much role to play in Exile/Avernum. Your characters have no personality, nor can you give them much of one. You can make almost no choices with any impact. The only real effect you have is by completing quests, and even that tends to be minimal. BoE/A has role-playing. Geneforge does too. E/A does not.
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Warrior
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Ok so basically you're saying that whatever I call an RPG isn't, and whatever I call something else is an RPG. I feel so loved.
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GBA. (And an SNES emulator, but that's irrelevant.)

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Warrior
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OOO OOO HE SAID THE E WORD :P
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Off With Their Heads
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quote:
Originally written by The Dog And Pony Show:
Final Fantasy is not a role-playing game.
I don't think you'll find it characterized as anything else anywhere, though. Much as I am afraid to disagree with you, I think it is an RPG, for the reason that Alorael gave.

EDIT: Except I didn't bother to draw the fine semantic distinction that he did. Meh.

[ Monday, December 20, 2004 21:10: Message edited by: Kelandon ]

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Warrior
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Is this like that stupid distinction between SF and sci-fi that fat Berkeley beardos like to talk about?

A role-playing game... is a game in which role-playing is the primary focus. There's no ambiguity about that definition.

Alorael: Exile gives you at the very least the choice between villainous self-interest and noble charity.

[ Monday, December 20, 2004 22:14: Message edited by: The Dog And Pony Show ]
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One Thousand Slimy Things
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Golden Sun I and II biatch!

Games such as Final Fantasy can be considered a low-carb RPG, with all the flashy stuff and a half-assed story, but none of the difficult stuff of actual roleplaying. The roles are given, go and save the world.

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By Committee
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I think FF is definitely a cRPG. If you say it isn't, then no cRPG is technically an RPG, because none of them allow the freedom of traditional pencil and paper RPGs.

The first cRPGs I ever played were Dragon Warrior, Ultima: Exodus, and Final Fantasy on the NES, and Curse of the Azure Bonds (Gold Box) on the Apple IIgs. None of these games allowed much freedom - paths were pretty pre-determined. But all of them incorporated elements of traditional RPGs - character development, hit points, experience, etc, and involved a story.

Do any RPGs truly allow the freedom to do whatever you want? Even in traditional pencil and paper RPGs, if you steer too far away from what the game master has planned, you can run into problems.

EDIT: As for the GBA, do NOT get FF Tactics Advanced - it is nowhere near as good as the original PS1 game. The rules system and limited job progression based on race make the game unfun.

[ Tuesday, December 21, 2004 07:00: Message edited by: Andrew Miller ]
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I think FFTA is the most overrated game of all time. Most overrated games are somewhat good or at least mediocre, but FFTA is just awful.

For GBA, Fire Emblem is a very solid strategy/RPG. It's more strategy than RPG though, so it might not be your kind of game. Megaman Battle Network is enjoyable (get 2 or 3 - 1 is too easy and too short, 4 is bad), and has a very unique battle system that's a combination of card-based and real-time. Golden sun and Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga are supposedly good, but I haven't played them.

[ Tuesday, December 21, 2004 07:38: Message edited by: Jawaj ]

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"If you held a weapon to Fwiffo's head, he would say anything you wanted him to. In fact, if you held a vegetable to Fwiffo's head, he'd say whatever you wanted him to." - Spathi high council, Star Control 2.
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Lifecrafter
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How much of creating your role/personality is up to the game, and how much is up to yourself? Your role can still never exceed the limits set up by the game. Exile's/Avernum's free skill system is one of the most allowing role-creating systems I've seen.

I think creating a personality very well can be up to the player, not the game. That way, you can give your characters as much personality as you want. I think Exile/Avernum are about as free as any RPG can be. You can choose almost any role and absolutely any personality. This doesn't make them any lesser than, say, Final fantasy or Deus Ex. It surely doesn't make them less RPG-like.

The Elder Scrolls: Morrowind (son of mentioned Daggerfall) is almost shockingly like Avernum. An extremely free skill system and a character with no personality whatsoever. Any skill combination and any personality is possible; any role is possible. You are only given a mission, the rest is up to you. It's the future of RPG.

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Warrior
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quote:
Originally written by Andrew Miller:

I think FF is definitely a cRPG. If you say it isn't, then no cRPG is technically an RPG, because none of them allow the freedom of traditional pencil and paper RPGs.
Genre is hardly black and white. A game can feature varying amounts of role-playing.

The main problem is that some game genres are thematic (role-playing, adventure) and some genres are mechanistic (first-person shooter, side-scroller). In reality, just about any thematic genre could be combined with any mechanistic genre. Thus, a first-person shooter could very well be a role-playing game.

The ultimate RPG, of course, is sitting around with your friends acting out a story. The pencil-and-paper role-playing systems arose out of a wish for a slightly more formal system to do, essentially, that.

Each reduction in the freedom of role in a game is usually for a reason. The tabletop RPG is less free-form than a simple storytelling game, but it's easier to introduce strategy and tactics. The CRPG is less free-form than the tabletop RPG, but it's easier to play alone, may have context graphics, etc.

The Japanese-style RPG, which I call a character playing game or CPG, originated due to constraints of hardware.
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I should clarify- I currently have Fire Emblem (yay!), Golden Sun I & II (yay!), FFTA (yay!), Pokemon Ruby in German (eh), Zelda II (yay!) and Sword of Mana (eh).

Arctic- Golden Sun is indeed good, but is also a bit easy.

AM- FFTA is too a good game.

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