Why?
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Warrior
Member # 3351
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written Saturday, January 3 2004 14:37
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quote:As simple priests are not allowed to think about what the bible really means, they are taught a huge numbers of "facts". What I said is one of them. [ Saturday, January 03, 2004 14:38: Message edited by: So Incredibly Sad ] -------------------- /Seawinds are calling Posts: 187 | Registered: Thursday, August 14 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 2786
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written Saturday, January 3 2004 14:59
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Heh, I like this question. It doesn't have an answer, though. Meaning and purpose are subjective. There are two possible answers in a logical universe: a) Nothing, and b) whatever you want. -------------------- Working on it... Posts: 18 | Registered: Monday, March 17 2003 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 3 2004 15:50
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Sir David, if you think children are happy, either you had a very fortunate childhood or you have a very poor recollection of it. I look back on when I was 4 or 5 years old and remember being constantly dissatisfied and frustrated by things I couldn't achieve or control. Children are falsely led to believe they can do anything if they just try hard enough, and that just sets them up for disappointment after disappointment. Why do you think children cry so much? Things are much better for them once they know their limitations and stop expecting more than they can possibly achieve. Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 73
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written Saturday, January 3 2004 16:42
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Yeah. For example, I once asked Santa for magic powers, honestly believing that since I had been a good boy that year, that I would get said powers. I got a magic set instead. You can probably figure out what happened. I definitely hate being lied to. I like to understand things. I enjoy learning about things very much. If people try to keep me from knowing things because I'll be happier without knowing it, I'll just try even harder to find out the truth. -------------------- My BoE graphics archive is finally getting started! Yay! I hope you like my graphics.My BoE Graphics An absurdly fun Flash game- Refridgerator Raid! --------- The Lyceum- A board for BoE. Yes it is. Really. Stop staring at me! Stop it, I say! Oh, sorry... Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Saturday, January 3 2004 17:22
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Well, maybe I was just fortunate, then. Anyway, maybe my thing about sunrises is just a misdiagnosis of the problem; I thought that my increase of knowledge and dulling of emotions were connected, since they occured (are occuring?) at the same rate and the same time, but maybe it's just a coincidence. We're stuck with this quest for knowledge, though, whether we like it or not; it's not like I make a point of knowing nothing. So anyway, if knowledge isn't dulling my emotions, then what is? Hindu philosophy would say this dulling is a good thing, but I think otherwise... -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, January 3 2004 17:37
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Maturity. It really isn't such a bad thing, you know. Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Saturday, January 3 2004 18:24
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Maturity, or the dulling of emotions? -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Saturday, January 3 2004 18:53
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David-kun? I think everyone knows where I lie on that. I have three possible scenarios subjective to myself, all resulting in the same outcome: 1) There is no god. Therefore, doing things that feel good have no consequences good or bad post mortem. Keeping this in mind, the purpose of life would be to plan one's life to experience the most enjoyment through whichever means possible. 2) There is a god and he is good. Because he is good, he wants his creations to feel good. Therefore, one should attempt to feel good. (If one assumes that there is a "good god", then harming people is out of the picture, but considering that I have no plans of harming people for personal pleasure anytime soon, I have no reason to give a damn one way or the other about this. Screw the sadists.) 3) There is a god and he is evil. Assuming he is evil, he will want you to suffer in the afterlife, thus automatically resigning you to hell (or similar variant thereof). Seeing how one's actions still have no impact on one's fate in the afterlife, the goal of life would still be to seek out enjoyment. Of course, there's also the "Christian" god, who seems to constantly waver between the latter two, varying on interpretation. Whenever I hear all of His followers speak unilaterally on his nature, I'll consider Him as being something other than a being whose interpretation is subjective based on the views, logical yet conflicting arguments and potential biases of the interpreter. -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Saturday, January 3 2004 19:02
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Ay, but if you subscribe to the neutral God theory, there's something of a problem with the belief that a good God would want you to be happy more than anything else. In essence, you are working on a very trivial definition of 'good' and 'evil'; God is nothing if not a universal governing force, and a government that lets some of its people live happy while others suffer miserably -- indeed, even because others suffer miserably! -- is best-regarded as evil, no matter how freely it allows those citizens to be happy. [ Saturday, January 03, 2004 19:03: Message edited by: USA-se Xenerali-veiratu CUSITURA ] -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Saturday, January 3 2004 19:45
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The same trend described previously fails to break continuity with your addendum, however correct it may be. If you assume that God is evil via ambivalence, then whatever fate has been prescribed for us mortals- presumably the one most convenient for God- is the one we will hit regardless. My life would, in that instance, still be a pursuit of pleasure. -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, January 3 2004 21:13
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Assuming there is a god (or several gods, but I'll stick with one for now), I'd define three cases. 1. God is benevolent. As TM said, this means life should be enjoyed. 2. God is malevolent. This would explain a lot... And it would mean that we're all doomed to a miserable eternity after death. Enjoy life while you can. 3. God is rule-oriented. Follow His word and you will get a harp and a halo, or forty virgins, or a six-pack and a sweet TV. Ignore him and you will suffer painful things for a very, very long time. Since God is incomprehensible, I assign equal probability to all three cases. Thus, there is only a 33% chance that I shouldn't enjoy life, and then I'd be required to pick the right religion out of the hundreds that exist. Since the worst case scenario is not fun while I'm alive and probably not fun when I'm dead, I'll hope (can't really pray) for the better situations and go about enjoying myself. —Alorael, who supposes there could be a fourth case as well. God plays dice with the universe and your eternal reward depends on how the numbers come up. Again, might as well have fun before you have to hope for boxcars. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Sunday, January 4 2004 12:12
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In my mind, David, happiness does not have to depend at all on violent, extreme emotional fluxes. The immature among us may rely on physical pleasures and emotional highs to keep us happy, but I feel that there is indeed a higher level of happiness open to us. This higher level is contentment. Contentment is a controlled, stable sort of happiness, subdued yet pervasive. I see this state as being far superior to the temporary and violent nature of physical orgasms and emotional highs. In my understanding, such an advanced state as constant contentment, or even-mindedness, can be attained only through mental, emotional, and physical control and discipline. Faith can aid in the attainment of even-mindedness, but it seems not to be a requirement. I believe in God as being a benevolent and merciful being, willing to pardon us for our sins and give us as many chances as we need to attain the exalted state of even-mindedness. However, as our goal in life is to pass the "test" and attain this state, it is still our responsibility to do so, without assistance. In the interests of making life a true challenge, God does not ever interfere in the goings-on of humanity. It is as foolish and unfair to give thanks to God for fortuitous events in our lives as it is to blame God for our worldly misfortunes. As the challenge is so extremely difficult to pass, I believe in the reincarnation of the atman, or personal soul, as many times as is needed for the said atman to obtain the state of even-mindedness. With each successive life, the atman learns and matures, growing closer and closer to its goal. We shall all reach it in the end, although some will take longer than others. After all have reached the pinnacle, I suppose the Earth will simply cease to exist, as it will no longer hold any further purpose. -------------------- "Let a man find himself, in distinction from others, on top of two wheels with a chain- at least in a poor country like Russia- and his vanity begins to swell out like his tires. In America it takes an automobile to produce this effect."- Leon Trotsky Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Sunday, January 4 2004 13:24
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Question: how are we defining good and evil here? They're highly subjective concepts. Unless we're going to use Plato's frankly stupid idea that there is an ideal form of everything, we can't really consider that they do in fact exist except in our minds. Hence everybody will have a slightly different view of them. -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3252
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written Sunday, January 4 2004 14:52
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Well, I don't believe we can agree on any sort of absolute definition regarding good and evil. Like so many things in life (and this topic :) ), there is no single definition that everyone works with in their assumptions. I guess the closest we could collectively come would be to set up some broad ethical boundaries that are mutually acceptable to attempt to get a framework in place. For example, most people would agree that cold-blooded murder or sadism is an evil action, while generosity or kindness would be considered good. Someone want to jump in here? [ Monday, January 05, 2004 19:15: Message edited by: Militant Vegan ] -------------------- Learn About The Man Behind the Messiah. Posts: 137 | Registered: Tuesday, July 22 2003 07:00 |
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This Side Towards Enemy
Member # 3098
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written Monday, January 5 2004 10:42
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Ah, but is cold-blooded murder wrong if it saves more lives than it ends? And can you equate all life to be of equal value, amongst humans or indeed amongst animals in general? -------------------- Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned I'll tell you my story, man Though I wish I'd never been born I'm loose at the seams, I've broken my dreams And my hand it shakes the pen Come on, come on now baby, Let the good times roll again Posts: 961 | Registered: Thursday, June 12 2003 07:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Monday, January 5 2004 11:09
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My goal in life is to be contented in between the emotional highs. I want the best of both worlds. -------------------- Grammar wenches beware: This is the house that the malt that the rat that the cat that the dog that the cow that the maiden that the man that the priest that the cock that the farmer kept waked married kissed milked tossed worried killed ate lay in. My Website desperance.net - Leave your sanity at the door Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 2786
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written Monday, January 5 2004 17:53
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Morality does not *exist*, period. It's a subjective concept, and is made by humans. However, I try to be moral anyway and so do most people I know. My baseline ethic is "Respect the interests of all others as best you can." Works better than utilitarianism and the golden rule, IMO. Therefore I think that the closest approximation of 'evil' I can come up with is an action that violates the precept I mentioned above. -------------------- Working on it... Posts: 18 | Registered: Monday, March 17 2003 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, January 5 2004 18:09
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Actually, if by "respecting the interests of all others" you mean striking a balance between acting in the interests of others and avoiding acting against the interests of others, that's pretty much what utilitarianism is. If that's not what you mean, I apologise; feel free to clarify yourself. Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3252
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written Monday, January 5 2004 19:06
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quote:Your first point is valid. Murder is a contextual evil, and cases can be made to support both arguments. However, I still believe that it is possible to collectively construct an idea of what moral and immoral behavior might look like. It isn't as though everyone's cultural background is so radically diffrent that we share no common values. Is there an appropriate situation to sexual violate children? To defile corpses? To beat an old man for looking at you cross-eyed? Speaking for myself, I do consider all life to be of equal value. That's part of what it means to be a vegan. So in my own life, this belief has allowed me to construct a moral definition. Life is sacrosanct. [ Monday, January 05, 2004 19:10: Message edited by: Militant Vegan ] -------------------- Learn About The Man Behind the Messiah. Posts: 137 | Registered: Tuesday, July 22 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Monday, January 5 2004 19:09
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What of plant life? -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3252
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written Monday, January 5 2004 19:15
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Plants live, but are not aware, or conscious. Moreover, they have very limited sensory equipment, and no pain receptors. They don't feel anything like pain. Plus, they're tasty. Given the choice between an animal, whose experiance of life has a lot in common with mine, and a plant, who isn't alive in the same sense that I'm alive, I'll choose the plant. -------------------- Learn About The Man Behind the Messiah. Posts: 137 | Registered: Tuesday, July 22 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3480
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written Monday, January 5 2004 22:31
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I have been sent by satan to ANNIHILATE you religious fools. SEE YOU IN HELL GOD BOTHERERS  [ Monday, January 05, 2004 22:32: Message edited by: Timber-Wolf ] -------------------- "'We wish the return of Linda.' they said. 'Oh, swell. She only summoned a demon lord into the tower once, she's only mildly insane, what a beautiful idea! Let's proceed at once!' I said' "'We appreciate your acquiesence,' they said. And that was that. Sarcasm is lost on that lot." He kicks a wall in irritation. ----------------------------------- What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. Posts: 169 | Registered: Wednesday, September 24 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3310
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written Tuesday, January 6 2004 02:07
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I fear that somebody has said this already but I'm still going to say it. I think there cannot be an all-benevolent or an all-evil god. There are always rules. Happiness is different from people to people. An all-benevolent god would approve of murdering and raping as well as other such things, as long as it increases one's personal happiness and pleasure. The benevolent god is impossible. His teachings would be like "Do what you want. Don't do what you don't". You will have to separate the "benevolent god" from the "good god". It all comes down to rules, eventually. Posts: 756 | Registered: Monday, August 4 2003 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Tuesday, January 6 2004 06:03
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quote:Aha, but there's where you have something of a problem: where do you stop defining life as similar to you? Plants are alive, yes, but they're not conscious; neither are eggs or cheese. (If you're against it on the basis of no explotation of animals, I'd be more than happy to point out that chickens would have eggs anyway.) Most fish, conscious or not, are not capable of feeling pain on a level similar to that of intelligent land creatures. And quite frankly, to say that an animal has a similar life to you is biologically sound but otherwise ridiculous. Cows are stupid, stupid animals, and the same goes for chickens; they feel pain, they bleed, but to say they have a common thread with humans on more than a biological level is preposterous. I personally happen to fall in more to the exploitation angle (being a good socialist, and also not wanting to tangle with the implication of eggs having anything to do with grown humans); I might be a vegetarian if I thought it would do any good for the animals in question or for humanity as a whole; but overall, people in America are still going to eat twice as much as they need while people in Africa are still going to starve for want of half of it. And one consumer's difference won't change the policies of the meat industry. I couldn't replace the protein I get from animal products in any case, being virulently allergic to a tremendous number of groundplants, among them peanuts and soy, so being a vegetarian is not a realistic option for me. (I ought to be outraged at how expensive anything suitable for a vegetarian diet for someone who chokes up and dies due to soy and peanut products is, but to be honest, I'm really not. The conscience-food market is and always will be dominated by the upper-class, who have the money and time to waste frittering away about how horribly we're exploiting animals, and at the same time supporting the exploitation of migrant farm laborers.) [ Tuesday, January 06, 2004 06:06: Message edited by: USA-se Xenerali-veiratu CUSITURA ] -------------------- In a word, gay. --Bob the Impaler Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Babelicious
Member # 3149
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written Tuesday, January 6 2004 06:52
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A few points: Yes, chickens do have eggs anyway, but the conditions in which most chickens are kept for egg-laying and eating are atrocious. Plants are not generally considered to be sentient. And why should it be cheap to be a vegetarian if you can't consume legumes? What about the lactose intolerant? And cows are not as stupid as you may think. I've known a few. There is some speculation in those eyes. Posts: 999 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |