Book-burning?
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Shaper
Member # 517
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written Saturday, October 18 2003 12:36
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I'm taking part in a debate next week about whether the printed word has or should be rendered obsolete by the technological revolution, and I'm not ashamed to say I'm a pretty poor debater, so I'll just ask if anyone here has any thoughts on the issue. (I'm opposing, saying that books are still important, but I'd be interested in opinions on either side.) Thanks. -E- -------------------- Let them eat cake! Polaris Boards: The System is Up. Perennially. Posts: 2314 | Registered: Tuesday, January 15 2002 08:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Saturday, October 18 2003 14:29
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I agree, but I'm not really sure why. But I do know that when the power goes out, books are nice. Also, until someone comes up with a surefire way to get rid of glare, I'd rather read words on a page than on a screen. And books and newspapers take a bit less energy than having the computer on every time you want to read something. ...OK, maybe I am sure why. I'll try to think of more. -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Saturday, October 18 2003 14:35
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You'll still need hardcopies if the online texts go haywire. Magnets aren't nearly as reliable as ink and paper. -------------------- We're all amazed but not amused By all the things that you said you'd do. You're much concerned but not involved by Decisions that are made by you But we are sick and tired of hearing your song, Telling us how you are going to change right from wrong, 'Cause if you really want to hear our views, You haven't done nothin'. Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Erudite*
Member # 3042
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written Saturday, October 18 2003 14:44
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Also, what about text books? Schools are broke enough already without having to buy a computer for each student. -------------------- The Club of All Chance Forums I was once member #2475, but then my account was deleted because of a bug. Post count=406+whatever it says below. Posts: 402 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Saturday, October 18 2003 14:45
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I'd never get used to reading on a computer screen, at least not for long periods of time. Besides, half the atmosphere is gone if you don't turn pages, and don't smell the paper. Reading an actual book always involves smelling this nice, old-feeling aroma that books that have long stood in a library give off. Ok. Call me weird.  -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Saturday, October 18 2003 15:15
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Books have a natural division between pages, which can be used for effect to create divisions between sections of a work; this is more difficult to do with a file on a computer, which one naturally just scrolls through. You can't easily stick a bookmark in a computer when you're halfway through reading something, either. -------------------- I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, October 18 2003 16:45
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Books are more portable than computers. You can sit at a table, in a chair, on a couch, or even suspend yourself upside-down from the ceiling with a book. A laptop would make all those difficult, and I defy anyone to find a comfortable way to curl up with a laptop. Most thieves would rather steal a computer than a book, and most books aren't so expensive that replacing them would be a serious problem. Unless you need to carry around several different books at once, hard copy is the way to go. Books can be dropped, stepped on, thrown, covered with spilled soda, and generally mauled. They'll usually come through legible. Computers tend to fall apart, and they do it far more completely. —Alorael, who would like to see a well-designed book-shaped, non-glare (non-backlit?) electronic reader. Make it tough and give it a decent-sized hard disk and it would have most of the advantages of both books and computers. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 59
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written Sunday, October 19 2003 00:00
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quote:Well, I think Alan Kay proposed his "DynaBook" concept in the late 1960s.  PDAs come closest to this idea. Google found this link for me:http://www.honco.net/os/kay.html A computer generally gives you access to online content, which is often different from traditional printed books: 1. There are hyperlinks and search engines. That's great for reference works, but some studies indicate that web surfing shortens your attention span. "Sequential" books help you focus. 2. Almost anyone can publish online. That's democratic, but the quality offered is often low. Posts: 950 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 3310
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written Sunday, October 19 2003 03:04
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No books - no libraries. That would, honestly and without even a trace of humour said, be a horrible loss. Libraries. Lots of dusty old books on shelves. Big silent rooms. You can almost feel the very essence of knowledge floating around you. There is a sort of peace in the air. Libraries give you this impression of age and wisdom. They are places where you can just walk in and rest. Time itself stands still between the book-rows. Libraries are not affected by the hectic outside world. They are sanctuaries of calm. Libraries. I love them. I truly do. (Plus, the whole idea with libraries is great. People can, for free , just walk in and take a book for reading. Very rare in this paranoid world of ours.) Posts: 756 | Registered: Monday, August 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Sunday, October 19 2003 05:41
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In my experience, people read books (even those dreadful condensed books so slagged off in 'Fahrenheit 451') with more concentration and for longer than on-line text. They take the information more seriously, and given that a society has to be properly informed to be properly democratic, people's attitudes to information gathering are pretty important. Reading a book also takes more commitment - you have to go out to get it, maybe from a library, rather than just clicking your mouse a couple of times. I like to think of this as some small commitment to the external physical / social world - a heartening contrast to VR, which will soon see us all disappearing up our own fundaments a la 'The Machine Stops'. Lastly, some have noted a trensd in civilisations where information gets more impermanent the more 'advanced' (complex) they become - from ancient stone blocks and clay tablets, through vellum and paper, to electronic texts actually unreadable without a power source. Potentially, in the far future the knowledge of this (or a near-future) society would be as lost as that of a pre-literate society if information storage techniques change radically again. More importantly, disposable, transient info like this creates '1984' style attitudes to historical truth - i.e. what is inconvenient about the past just gets disposed of or endlessly rewritten to suit the interests of those powerful enough to do it, which goes back to the issue of democracy above. Oh dear - all not very postmodern, though that fraudulent fad looks like it's running its course too now, even in academic circles. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3558
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written Sunday, October 19 2003 09:20
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quote:Unless of course you use amazon...  -------------------- I r happiness! Posts: 29 | Registered: Wednesday, October 15 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3570
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written Sunday, October 19 2003 09:25
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Books are much better because u can still get the info in the books but when its on a computer if the power goes out or something well you dont have anyway to read what you have..... also computers can be hacked and things tampered with so if no one knew george bush was president and some one hacked it and put it so say I was president no one would be any wiser. -------------------- A Dragon's Home Freedom comes when the mind is free. Free from work, free from reality, The mind soars to new heights and places. This is where we live. Reality can not comprehend us, We go beyond the laws of physics, The impossible is possible, And knowledge is meaningless. Few people know of us, Yet all are able to see us. We're in the books, in the art, In buildings and other things. Seek us, and you will find us, Not in reality, but in your heart. Posts: 20 | Registered: Sunday, October 19 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Sunday, October 19 2003 11:41
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Good idea. Go ahead and do us all a favor. [ Sunday, October 19, 2003 11:41: Message edited by: Arancaytar ] -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3417
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written Sunday, October 19 2003 19:59
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Excellent response by X. I can only add to the well-made basic points which I agree with. In theory there are no problems with replacing hard-copy books with some sort of electronic reader. However, in theory all forms of government work just fine. In reality there still exists a huge gulf between the convenience, portability, contrast, and visual appeal of even a cheap book and any portable computer device. The only advantage to the computers at this point is that you can have other-than-static visual effects such as animation and sound. Also computers allow random access and searching whereas normal books do not, other than the mostly useless index. There is also a social problem with computers, however. Whether it is the Internet or the whole MTV 5-seconds-attention-span deal, the average computer user does not really "read" when accessing data on a computer. People tend to skim, and to rapidly lose interest, when they are reading on a computer (I'm talking as a social or mental issue here - this is aside from the physical issues like eye fatigue). Most people that I know that grew up using computers heavily are not good readers, meaning that they do not read as a hobby or read anything that they are not required to. They do tend to enjoy more interactive things like movies, or assimilating information in more bite-sized pieces on the Internet. I grew up reading as a primary hobby, and using computers for manipulation of data (such as programming or games) rather than for data access in and of itself. I was in college when the Internet boom started, and hence I am right on the generation borderline between my parents (can't spell computer) and my children (don't understand why you'd go to a library when you can just look it up on the computer). I still can't handle any serious reading on the computer – I find myself printing it out to read off-line. I think that this is a combination of factors for me – the eye strain of the monitor (and the small screen real-estate – you can't fit a full page of text on the screen at a readable size), the ingrained pre-DSL days respect of on-line "minutes", and some unnerving urge to always want to do something else on the computer while I am reading. I predict that books will disappear eventually, however, as will hard currency and a lot of other things. However it will be slow and largely limited to the developed nations as it happens. It will also probably be 2 generations out (my grandchildren) before it happens. Or maybe not. The publishing industry is very strong politically and we still don't use the metric system, so stranger things have happened. Oh yes, we still vote with paper ballots. So go figure. -------------------- This space intentionally left blank. Posts: 70 | Registered: Monday, September 1 2003 07:00 |
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Senile Reptile
Member # 547
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written Monday, October 20 2003 16:19
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"...We still vote with paper ballots." That's better than computerized voting 'cause of hacking. But that's a different issue... If I have something more thna four or five pages on the computer that I wish to read, I'll print it out. Reading off the screen is terrible - there is definitely something nice about reading a book in bed with some tea when it's snowing outside... listening to some Brahms... munching thoughtfully on a cookie... mmmm... Books cannot be replaced, period. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 1614 | Registered: Wednesday, January 23 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3417
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written Monday, October 20 2003 17:27
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Well, I was referring more to the lack of use of dedicated voting machines as opposed to Internet-based voting. You can't really hack a dedicated electronic device to skew the results of a vote. For example, the majority of standardized tests for college entrance in the US are taken electronically nowadays on a dedicated computer (not over the Internet) and there is really no hacking or cheating problem. The distinction is important because the original point of the thread was a discussion of whether any electronic solution could replace paper books. My take is that computers per se may not ever replace paper books, but a dedicated device might. If the electronic ink projects ever get off the ground and become a commercial device, an electronic book reader would be indistinguishable from a paper book anyway. I think that it's a good bet that such a device will be available within the next 20 years. Industry pundits have been predicting 2010 for widespread adoption of such a device for several years now. The social aspect of book-reading will take much longer to disappear, however. Case in point: Barnes and Noble has discovered that they can beat Amazon and other e-tailers by making superior brick-and-mortar stores that are widespread and locally available. Going to B&N is more of a social event (read, get coffee, see live events, talk to people) than anything. Sure, it's easier to click and order a book on Amazon, or even better to download it to read instantly, but the appeal of stores like B&N seems to be deeply ingrained into the fabric of society - as if people that like to read have some need to connect with each other in person. I see society diverging somewhat as you have one group of people that seem to prefer reading off-line, and participate in the Internet phenomenon in a more desultory manner – as if the electronic aspect is more of a necessary evil standing in the way of information access. These people enjoy print newspapers and print out their e-mails to read. On the other extreme you've got the k3wl d00dz that hate reading, but are all about electronic information access. These folks aren't so keen on trivial issues like grammar and spelling since they just get in the way of information exchange. If it can't be communicated "above the fold" of a WWW page it probably isn't worth learning. There really are benefits to both approaches. Although I fall in the former camp, I can see some of the advantages of the latter. For example, I almost never buy a newspaper anymore unless I am traveling and without Internet access for some reason. It is much more convenient, and there exists much better and more timely news coverage, in the on-line news services. The change from paper-copy to electronic copy seems to involve some aspect of the freedom of information, and the creation of a truly egalitarian on-line society. In the same way that the Gutenberg printing press changed the face of tyrannous governments forever, the electronic book has the potential to make some truly profound changes to society – equal access to information being one of those changes. It's still a ways down the road however, at least IMHO. Very interesting discussion topic however. -------------------- This space intentionally left blank. Posts: 70 | Registered: Monday, September 1 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Monday, October 20 2003 17:46
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Holy crap. I had no idea Spiderweb had gotten this crowded. What's going on? Before I left Spiderweb, there would have been... oh, I don't know, maybe 5 new posts, and probably one or two would be worthless and not readable anyway. I liked it that way. Now I might as well read a book on the subject (no pun or whatever intended), this topic grew so much in one day... =\... and the scary thing is, they're all useful posts... argh... when I was your age, I... oh, never mind, now I sound like an oldbie. Anyway. Yeah. I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but books are way cheaper. You buy the best books, and just borrow the rest from the library for free. Compared to electricity costs, and the cost for the laptop itself, you know... which also brings us to the subject of the environment, I know it takes electricity and everything for printing, but I think it's a bit more environment-friendly to read a book than a lighted screen, and all that. EDIT: If anyone cares, that's post 1900. I'm such a spammer. [ Monday, October 20, 2003 18:00: Message edited by: Sir David ] -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon TEH CONSPIRACY IZ ALL Les forum de la chance. Incaseofemergency,breakglass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 3417
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written Monday, October 20 2003 17:54
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I guess I'm part of that newfangled unwashed masses that is crowding up the boards.  Seriously, on the topic of a book reader – imagine a solar-powered portable electronic book reader. Such a thing exists already, although not in mass commercial form. One would pay more for the reader than for an individual book, sure. However, future books could be downloaded for free, or, in the case of RIAA getting a-hold of it, at the very least for much cheaper than a hard-copy book, since bits are close to free and paper costs money. An electronic device that uses renewable energy sources is much better for the environment than milling gazillions of pages of paper out of trees, which are arguably a renewable source but take a long time to renew compared to sunlight (and also require a lot of chemicals to turn into paper). An analogy already exists in the currency situation. The widespread use of credit and debit cards has saved the U.S. Treasury Department millions of dollars in the cost of printing and maintaining hard currency already, and the trend is moving rapidly towards a cashless society. So, what's your credit card number (with apologies to the thread that started it all)? -------------------- This space intentionally left blank. Posts: 70 | Registered: Monday, September 1 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 496
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 02:59
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You're assuming manufacturing computers (esp. chips, typically etched with highly reactive hydroflouric acid!) is pollution-free. In terms of resource extraction, tree farming for wood pulp is probably comparible to silicon mining. And I suspect books are more recyclable than dead PCs. I think environmental arguments here are a bit of a red herring really. Posts: 2333 | Registered: Monday, January 7 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 03:12
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I thought chips were etched with laser, aren't they? Acid would probably be far too inaccurate for the tiny contacts. Of course, lasers require a lot of electrical energy, but they're by far not as polluting in their usage as acid. -------------------- "And all should cry, Beware, Beware! His Flashing eyes, his Floating hair!" S. T. Coleridge --- "It is as if everyone had lost their sense Consigned themselves to downfall and decadence And a wisp it is they have chosen as their beacon." Reinhard Mey. --- Quote of the Week: "I have a high opinion of myself, which makes up for my total lack of intelligence." Anon. Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 03:22
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From what I've gathered from a little Google-assisted research, standard chip-etching procedures require the chip to be treated with a series of chemicals before and after laser etching to add and strip away surface layers needed at various steps in the process. http://www.svtc.org/ seems to be a rather good source of information on the environmental impact of the electronics industry, if you can wade through all the propaganda. [ Tuesday, October 21, 2003 03:23: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- I believe there are 15 747 724 136 275 002 577 105 653 961 181 555 468 044 717 914 527 116 709 366 231 425 076 185 631 031 296 protons in the universe, and the same number of electrons. -- Sir Arthur Eddington Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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BoE Posse
Member # 15
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 04:28
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Reading on a computer for most people is 20% slower than offline reading. Dunno why. A book has had several centuries of refinement. Computers for the masses 20 years or so. Maybe the book metaphor isn't the best fit for online reading. If I read in the bathtub and drop my book in, I've lost $10. If I drop my laptop in.... -------------------- All that we see, or seem, is but a dream within a dream. Visit the Louvre, the BoA Graphics Database at http://www.personal.psu.edu/bxb11/boa/louvre/ Visit Alexandria, the BoE Scenario Database at http://www.personal.psu.edu/bxb11/boe/alexandriajs/ Posts: 653 | Registered: Thursday, September 27 2001 07:00 |
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Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 05:04
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quote:...then I'm glad it was not mains-operated -------------------- Grammar wenches beware: This is the house that the malt that the rat that the cat that the dog that the cow that the maiden that the man that the priest that the cock that the farmer kept waked married kissed milked tossed worried killed ate lay in. My Website desperance.net - Leave your sanity at the door Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 22
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 10:17
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We already have "tablet" computers. The development of electronic paper is on the way. It is only a matter of time before all the books you could ever possibly want to read (or anyone else would possibly want to read, for that matter) will be able to be stored on one paper-thin computer. Glare is a problem, but this can be overcome. The problems of glare are greatly reduced by reversing colours (having white or green text on a black background). Glare is just a byproduct on today's computers. It's only a matter of time before's it's eliminated. -------------------- KazeArctica: "Imagine...wangs everywhere...and tentacles. Nothing but wangs and tentacles! And no pants!" Posts: 2862 | Registered: Tuesday, October 2 2001 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 464
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written Tuesday, October 21 2003 12:37
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quote:Maybe it's the glare... Also, books are more helpful when one is angry than a laptop. I think it was mentioned that books can endure more damage than computers. Plus, when you feel like hitting someone on the head or something, the book is always there to be of assistance. Easy and with accuracy, too. Compared to a heavy laptop...and a desktop which is impossible to throw at someone.quote:[/b] Indeed, just like robots can never replace humans. -------------------- You go girl! All are lunatics, but he who can analyze his delusion is called a philosopher. - Ambrose Bierce If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried. Posts: 1158 | Registered: Monday, December 31 2001 08:00 |
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