Profile for Stillness
| Field | Value |
|---|---|
| Displayed name | Stillness |
| Member number | 7723 |
| Title | Lifecrafter |
| Postcount | 701 |
| Homepage | |
| Registered | Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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| Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General | |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Saturday, August 4 2007 18:19
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quote:And this is why I’m amazed that paragons of thought and reason such as you and Kelandon not only grace these boards with your brilliance but also condescend to interact with me. I do agree. YHWH’s vision must be flawless or he is not. As it stands, nothing he has said has failed to occur unless it has yet to occur. Those that have yet to occur, the ones that deal with the final destruction of wickedness, are by far in the minority. quote:The detail and accuracy. quote:The Jews were meticulous record keepers, in particular with regard to genealogies. 1) All of Jesus early disciples were Jews who knew that the Christ had to be David’s offspring. The messiah’s lineage would be one of the foremost concerns in their minds as their scriptures start very early in identifying it (maybe Genesis 12 or at least by Genesis 22:18). No one would have followed a non-Davidic Christ. 2) Much of Jesus opposition’s argument is recorded in the gospels. According to them he was a blasphemer who claimed equality with God, he was a criminal that broke Jewish law, a seditionist who discouraged paying taxes, a sorcerer and more. Never was there a claim against his genealogy though, because it was undisputable. Interestingly, the Jews in Jesus day were looking for the messiah because of prophecy. The prophet Daniel foretold the exact time of his arrival, so Jesus cousin, John the baptizer, was originally mistaken for the messiah and had to insist that he was not. There are, in fact, hundreds of messianic prophecies. If Jesus had not fulfilled these, the Christian congregation would have never had Jewish adherents. quote:This would only be a problem if the vast majority of biblical prophecies weren’t already fulfilled. The fact is that they are. And there are quite a few important prophecies with a time element, be it duration (length of the Jewish exile in Babylon), start date (appearance of messiah), or general timing (Jesus alert to his followers that when they saw Jerusalem surrounded they should flee as it’s destruction was imminent). --------- All good things do not come after death in Christianity. A good relationship with God has immediate benefits. It’s ironic that the very gift from God that makes us so much like him is the thing that can prevent us from recognizing his existence. We’re so adept at learning about our surroundings that the idea of certain things being unknowable present major hurdles for some. For the skeptic to grasp the significance of prophecy he has to understand not understanding. The one born blind can study electromagnetism and feel heat from the sun, but he’ll never know color. He shouldn’t claim it does not or cannot exist though. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Tuesday, July 31 2007 15:03
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The synoptic gospels have the fulfillment of Jesus statement immediately after which is why in Mark's and Luke's accounts we find the words "accordingly" and "in actual fact" linking the prophecy and the account of the transfiguration. I have much more to say but am extremely busy atm. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Saturday, July 28 2007 06:33
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quote:The only God in the absolute sense, but not the only supernaural being. There are many of those. I guess what you'd have to figure out is was the prophecy actually given inadvance, how detailed was it, is a human capable of knowing that type of detail in advance, could a human have manipulated things so that the prophecy was fulfilled. At least that's what I would expect of someone who wanted to know the truth as opposed to simply disqualifying phenomena if they don't fit their world view. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, July 27 2007 18:13
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I never claimed to be a religious scholar. I found nothing by googling "delphi prophecy." I'll just wait on Drew, because he dismissed biblical prophecy based on the prophecy of other faiths so I know he must have done some investigation. I'd be curious to know what he came up with. Which brings up an interesting quesion about his reasoning: The only reason I could think of to dismiss prophecy would be if it were false, postdicted, or self-fulfilled. Why would prophecy be dismissed because other people have it? Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, July 27 2007 17:50
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Kelandon, I'm shocked that you continue to be shocked by the depths of my ignorance at this point. I know practically nothing about everything. I knew that some traditions had prophecy but I didn't know it was as important in "almost every major world religion" as it is in Hebrew/Christian faith. The page you listed doesn't have any specific prophecies. I thought Drew might enlighten me. Or maybe we can call on your expertise as you know something about everything. Can you give me a prophecy or two that we can check historically to see the fulfillment? Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, July 27 2007 17:31
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I was not making an argument, but stating a fact on which we both agree. Alo's summation was unfair as it mischaracterized my position. I don't think mine is unfair to either side. But let us not tread this path again lest we be banned or the thread frozen. I'll let your word on elemetal physics be the last. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, July 27 2007 14:05
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Alas, I'm missing your point again. Why are you listing these religions? Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, July 27 2007 14:01
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Intelligence from intelligence v. Intelligence from mindless matter Gets right to the root and is a better characterization I think. It shows the underlying logic behind both positions. I think they can see eye-to-eye as people have switched sides in both directions. I certainly see your position and have even leaned towards it a bit in the past. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
| Life on Europa in General | |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, July 27 2007 12:53
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Why not what? I have some "why" questions about the stars myself, like why are they there, for one. If we did find life out there that might help to answer that question. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, July 27 2007 12:19
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Maybe a FSM t-shirt is not the most representative. http://www.flickr.com/photos/wheatfields/368069029/ :P Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, July 27 2007 11:37
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quote:That’s not what faith is, at least not from a biblical/Christian perspective. It is confidence based on evidence. That is rational. You can rationalize giving your mother the key to your home without concern because she has a flawless track record of looking out for your best interests. That is faith. You could also give you key to a stranger and hope that they won’t abuse access to your home. That is faith too, but the two faiths are not the same. quote:I didn’t know this. Can you give me a couple you kn ow of? Exclude Hebraic prophecies because I of course accept those. Prophecy is very powerful as it shows evidence of the superhuman. I don’t see how this could be considered as poor in your estimation. Unless you’re speaking about prophecies given by someone that they have complete control over fulfilling. (The next word you’ll see will be “antelope”…antelope). That is of course not what I speaking about. I've already acknowledged that other religions can have practical value as can godless philosophy. None of these measure up to biblical counsel from what I've seen, though. quote:I ascribe godly emotions to humans. He had them first and gave them to us. Do we see evidence of that? Assume again there is a creator. If he gives his creation the ability to enjoy life when this is not necessary that is an indication that he loves. Let’s say the creation need to metabolize things from their surroundings for energy. One source could be given and it could be a simple process of inserting this energy source into an opening – much like you pump gas into your car. Neither you nor the car enjoys this. You do it when the car alerts you that it’s necessary. If, however a great variety of energy sources were given with all sorts of shapes, colors, smells, tastes that could be mixed in an endless variety to the great enjoyment of the creation this would indicate love on the part of the creator. Especially if he explicitly says he loves and everything points to that fact and he gives no indication otherwise. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, July 27 2007 09:58
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Faith is rational and logical and can even be quantified. If there were no such thing as faith we would not have credit cards. When you walk into a bank and request to borrow the banker does not base his decision on how he feels about you, he goes based off of your payment history and how much you earn. If you have to pay in 24 installments and you’ve paid 23 on time, then he has every reason to think that you’ll pay the 24th unless something goes very wrong. That’s what faith or trust is. It’s hope based on evidence…that is unless it’s blind faith which I agree is irrational. Prophecy is a strong line of evidence, logic, honesty of the penmen, harmony of 40 different penmen over 1600 years, and practical value even though ancient are some other proofs that convinced me personally in the biblical message. quote: quote:So let’s continue from here: The creator creates as he pleases and determines whether or not his creation is behaving properly. Why does he then get to determine what happens to the creation? Because they’re using his stuff. Let’s take a wealthy father (please don’t say I’m hypocritical because it works) who has many children that live on his land, eat his food, use his electricity, etc. Some of these children begin to abuse the others children and the provisions of their father. Repeated warnings do not stop them. Does the father have the responsibility to support the rebellious children’s bad behavior? No. Even though he may love them, for the sake of his own peace, the peace of his land, and concern for his obedient children he will expel them. If he didn’t he’d actually be complicit. The same goes for God. The air we breath, the food, the sun, etc is all his. If he allows some to use these to make everyone suffer without intervention he becomes a collaborator with them. Now let’s take the wealthy father again and make the situation a little more complex. Let’s make his land vast and his children numerous. Let’s also make a large number of the children in state of rebellion against their father. There are three groups of children. (1) Some are loyal. (2) Some are disloyal and are the instigators of the rebellion. (3) Some are in rebellion because they have been tricked that their father is not around or doesn’t care, but they might come to their father’s side if they knew the truth. If the father is benevolent what should he do? (1) is cool. We already determined what (2) gets. (3) is a little problematic though because they look like (2), but maybe because of ignorance. How do you stop ignorance? Knowledge. The father could use (1) and send them out into his land to inform the rebellious and let them make a decision based on knowledge. If they accept it and cease rebelling then they become (1). If they reject that knowledge he has no choice but to expel them. If there is a benevolent God and people are on the wrong path for “cultural and environmental reasons” we should see a global educational campaign before he “expels”. If there is no educational campaign then I agree, either there is no God or he is not good. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, July 27 2007 06:35
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quote:That would not be the logical conclusion. One might conclude logically that not all religions know what God's way. One could also conclude that if there is a God and he has a way that certain factor(s) may make this way difficult to identify clearly. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Friday, July 27 2007 05:09
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Of course there is morality outside God. I acknowledged that his creation can create too. He doesn’t adhere to morality independent of himself though. That was the argument that started this. Of course some will think unity is a bad thing. They love violence. They make a living selling weapons or killing people. They’re working with another kind of morality. “Good” and “bad” can be a matter of semantics or preference, but that doesn’t change the results of choosing God’s way or a way contrary to it. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 23:17
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I mentioned the way of God leading to universal unity not as a proof of God’s existence, but a response to the claim that “good” and “moral” are relative and God would have to adhere to morality outside himself. I have given a scenario in which that is not true. The original point of the thread was that lack of faith has contributed to decline in morals. This is not because I feel that all religions and traditions are good, but that they are good to the extent that they match the Bible. Christians, Muslim, Jew, Jain, or otherwise didn’t matter in that line of reasoning. I didn’t really want to get into the specifics of my faith because I’m not on these boards to preach. I’m here because I find the challenges to my way of thinking stimulating and educational. The things I mentioned happened to Jehovah’s Witnesses mostly in the 30’s and 40’s. I am one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’m sorry you have had bad experiences. We do keep records on who has asked us not to visit anymore and respect that although mistakes can be made. Please accept my humble apologies. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 14:42
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Making practice of your religion illegal, loss of employment, expulsion from schools so that you have to set up your own, thousand of mob beatings, being driven out of town, counties, and states, castration and maiming, being tarred and feathered, kidnapped, shot, arrested without charge and without communication with family and lawyers is persecution any way you slice it. That happened in the United States of America last century to Christians because we would not do what we considered disrespectful to God. We eventually won in the Supreme Court, but not before these things happened. Some of it was the government, some of it was the citizenry following the lead of the government while the government did nothing. ------------- Going along with the creator is the way of everything in the universe. That is the way of eternity, harmony, tranquility and happiness. That is why it is good. Intellect gives the higher creatures the ability to abuse their gifts and buck against this way and make ways that are temporary, disorderly, violent, and unsettling. That is bad. It’s not circular. You can play semantics and call either way whatever you want, but it doesn’t change what each way is and what it merits for those who follow it. On the examples of xylons and parents: These don’t fit perfectly as analogies. Nothing really does, because God made everything from himself when there was nothing else. And other creator or parent is using and manipulating what is already here and at best only passes life along, but does not create it – not in the same sense that God does. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 07:55
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No, please explain why you feel it's ridiculous for the creator to have a name describing him as creator, Jumpin' Sarcasmon. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 07:43
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quote:I’m not talking about how anyone feels. A creator has the right to determine how his how his creation is made. The creation has no say in this since they don’t exist before they’re created. The most a creation could do is question the wisdom in their design afterwards – that is if the creator was an ingenious one so as to endow the creation with the ability to wonder, imagine, and express this (which would probably belie any complaint). Once the creation is made the creator can then determine if it carries out its function properly. He is solely and supremely qualified to do this. Others, including the creation itself, may have opinions about whether or not the creation is doing what they think is good, but by definition only the creator has say as to reasons for creating. quote:No it does not. God’s name, Jehovah, means “he causes to become.” His destructive power is also highlighted, but is always balanced by love, justice, wisdom and a strong desire to have his stated purpose carried out in spite of any attempts to stop it. He has stated that certain things will be and that can’t now be undone. It can be awkward to grasp because we change our minds and God does not – at least not for the reasons that we do. The only way he’ll alter is based on appeal, but never because he didn’t think things through or didn’t know all the circumstances beforehand. Even an appeal can’t change his purpose, though. This goes back to everything about the deity being reality and truthful. So, no, he cannot destroy everything. His authority is based on creatorship. quote:No, much came from the government itself. You might argue that the government representatives were in fact representing or spurred on by a different kind of Christianity and in some cases you’d be right, but not all. One of the biggest landmark decisions was purely nationalistic and secular – that of forcing schoolchildren to salute the flag or pledge allegiance. There have also been decisions on conscientious objection, parental rights, and (if I’m not mistaken) patient rights, among scores of other first amendment rights. And I do appreciate the freedoms afforded by this country. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Thursday, July 26 2007 04:31
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Thuryl, I never know when you’re trolling, but this seems like an attempt. I’ll take the bait anyway. Define what you think fascism is and how what I described fits. What you have described so far is not what I said – that power gives one the right to do something. jg, Christians aren’t persecuted here since the 60’s and 70’s I think, but before then we absolutely were. It did make the news. The most we get now are attempts to stop building places of worship or laws to restrict preaching activity. We generally win out in these though. Incidentally, quite a few freedoms enjoyed in this country are due to legal battles over persecution of Christians and attempts to restrict us and force us to deviate from our faith. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Wednesday, July 25 2007 22:04
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quote:Sometimes I feel very slow when I read your posts. I have to read them over and over again to get your point and then sometimes I still don’t as in this case. Bear with me. Immorality is nonconformity to proper conduct. Maybe it’s that I assumed God’s way was the proper way that threw you. Is that the leap? Or is it the meaning of moral that we’re wrestling with? I take the universe as God’s circle of Giotto. “Incompetence” is the farthest thing from my mind as I’m watching a cuttlefish change colors or reading about synaptic transmission. In the scenario I gave everything exists because of his will. That more than anything establishes him as rightful sovereign of everything and reliable arbiter of what does and does not conform to its purpose for being. quote:That’s interesting because I find the exact opposite to be true in my case. Life, order, and intelligence arising from life, order, and intelligence makes sense. These things coming from unaware, lifeless, chaos is what I can’t come to grips with as such thinking seems to run contrary to natural law. A being with all encompassing power and wisdom seems fantastic only when I fixate on the being. When I look at the whole picture it seems fantastic for this being not to be behind it all. --------- quote:I see your point. Just so you know, I don’t advocate killing or persecuting anyone for their beliefs. People of my faith have been beaten, jailed, tortured and killed all over the world (including the US) for what we believe. We’re still underground or fighting legal battles or taking physical beatings in quite a few countries. I’m all about tolerance. That being said, adultery is quite different from expressing political or religious beliefs. I’m not pro-stoning, but I certainly think we’d be better off with less adultery. Don’t worry though - I don’t get involved in politics. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Wednesday, July 25 2007 21:55
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quote:You’re preaching to the choir, but people have been looking to the universe for guidance for ages. It’s not me imposing anything on anyone. I didn’t name the planets. I just watched a stupid movie a few days ago where a 26th century astronaut had a mystical experience with a nebula - art imitating life. People get deep when they start thinking about outer space. Maybe some are as you said - content to be born, experience joy along with pain, and die without wondering about purpose. I suspect they’re few if any. I also wonder how “perfectly happy” such a person would be. But, I’m open to the possibility that I’m wrong. That is why I asked why people are hopeful. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Wednesday, July 25 2007 13:25
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quote:I hear you. The problem for me is that a lot of stuff no longer makes sense that way. The other theories are always more contrived and don't explain well. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Wednesday, July 25 2007 11:52
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quote:In my scenario immorality doesn't come from the deity. It's opposed to the way of the deity so it can't. It comes from the deity's creation that can make its own way. The deity is perfectly aware that some make this way and has even taken steps to ensure that only those that won’t make it will stay around. So, when the way of the creation lines up with that of the deity it goes toward harmony and permanence. And when the creation makes a way contrary to the deity it chooses a path of disorder and transience. Honestly it sounds sort of farfetched to me too sometimes. The only thing more farfetched to me is every other explanation. I start with the question “Does the universe have a beginning?” That becomes “Did that beginning have a cause?” Which turns into “Is that cause something eternal or someone eternal?” From there I always end up back where I am. And yes I do take the nature of reality and eternity seriously. Judging by the fact that you feel the need to keep coming back to this thread and think about it while going about your daily activities I’d say this has some importance to you as well, even though you call what I say “crap” (which by the way is very uncreative). How could it not have some importance? Even when I meet hardcore atheists from China they still have some degree of spirituality. For example, they might be afraid of cemeteries (very common) without really thinking about the ramification of that fear. You can’t run away from what you are and we are inclined towards spirituality by nature. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Wednesday, July 25 2007 08:47
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quote:Would you classify the justifications for why a 5 yr old should obey her parents the same way? quote:I disagree. Consider a scenario where a deity is the only thing that exists. Nothing has ever existed before this deity, because there is no “before.” The deity decides to create stuff. There is nothing other than this deity so everything created is from the deity. When he (not that the deity is male so please don’t ask) creates, he does so in a certain manner in accord with his own ordered way. The stuff reflects that way. Some stuff he creates is more like him than other stuff and so can also decide what it will do to a limited degree. Now the deity is the ultimate in reality because he is not subject to time, but everything else has a start. He does not have a way because of anything, but everything has a way because of him. When his creation that can decide does so in accord with the way of the deity it contributes toward harmony. Of course decisions not in the way of the deity cause the opposite - universal discord. Conformity to this way is absolute morality. So this deity does not obey any morality, but obeying his way is the ultimate in morality. Let’s take a lie, for example. A lie is an unreality. Remember the deity is the ultimate in reality. He has none of the motivation the creation may have to tell a lie. He doesn’t lie because it’s not his way, not because he is following a code. Much of the deity-like creation lies or has lied, but in general being prone to lying is a universally undesirable trait because it creates motivation based on unreal ideas which promote discord. The same is true for all immorality. It’s bad for the stuff and bad for the Deity. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Wednesday, July 25 2007 06:24
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none Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |