Profile for Stillness
| Field | Value |
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| Displayed name | Stillness |
| Member number | 7723 |
| Title | Lifecrafter |
| Postcount | 701 |
| Homepage | |
| Registered | Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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| Man or God in General | |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Wednesday, September 19 2007 22:48
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quote:I feel like you're trying to convince me. But I think I agree to some extent. People should mind their business. If someone tells me they don't want to hear what I have to say I move along. At the same time I feel an obligation to help someone if I think I can. Recently I heard about a bridge in Ohio (I think) that collapsed in a storm during the night. Some people driving along drove into the water and were hurt and/or killed. What makes it painful is that the locals knew about the bridge being out but gave no alert to drivers. Some of the family wants to file charges or sue. I don't know how successful they'd be, but I understand. We owe one another love. So if you know something will help me you should not withhold it. If you do you're a worthless neighbor. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
| Man or God in General | |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Wednesday, September 19 2007 18:13
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What's wrong with trying to cvonvince someone of something you think will benefit them? You've never tried to convince anyone of anything? Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
| Man or God in General | |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Wednesday, September 19 2007 13:45
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I'll freely admit that I believe certain things that a random person that picks up the Bible and opens it up would not see. Some of them could honestly go different ways. For example, those in my faith are pretty unanimous that the days in Genesis 1 and 2 are not 24 hr periods. But I've had discussions with people who are adamant that they're 24hr days, and I really do see their position. I wouldn't even argue so much because I can't see how it matters either way. Their position tends to be in conflict with the majority scientific opinion, but what scientists believe doesn't matter to me any more than it matters to them. If Synergy had picked one of those beliefs that deal with less important teachings, that'd be one thing. But he picks things that I see as pretty explicitly stated scripturally and that actually do get right to the heart of fundamental Christian teachings, like death, resurrection, the nature of man, and the nature of God. I don't see those as things that can go either way. Either God is good or evil. Either we die when we die or we live on in another state of existence. The impact of things like this is far-reaching. If you go the wrong way on them, then the Bible will start to look confusing. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
| Man or God in General | |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Wednesday, September 19 2007 09:46
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Who said the angels were mindless? Who said Lucifer is Satan? Not me. Who said the explanation of everything has to be in the Bible? It's enough that we are told that God created everything. We don't need to be told every detail about how and when. But God was talking to someone when he said, "Let us make man in our image." How could it be man if he's making man? And the individuals blocking entrance to Eden came from somewhere, and it wasn't Adam and Eve, yet all men do come from them. How much more obvious can it be? I really don't know what beliefs of mine you think aren't Biblical. I guess the fact that they're sexless is not explicitly stated, but it sure is strongly implied. But if you want to think they don't marry yet it's possible they still have genders but the females just aren't mentioned, it's not really a big deal to me. The Bible doesn't use the words "different seperately created" but it does say that they witnessed the creation of the earth and that they're stronger than men. It also says they're spirits, whereas humans are not described as such. If that's contrived to you, yet somehow the idea that we are reborn spirits from heaven is not then we just disagree. I guess the Bible will just continue being confusing to some and clear to others. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
| Man or God in General | |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Wednesday, September 19 2007 06:03
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quote:I did, but I’ll elaborate. The word “spirit” comes from the Greek “pneuma.” It basically means breath. The Hebrew “ruach” has the same meaning. They also have extended meaning. The bible uses them to mean wind (Ex 10:13), the vital force in living creatures (Ge 7:22), one’s spirit (Ge 26:34, 35), spirit beings (Acts 23:8, 9), and God’s holy spirit (Job 33:4). All of these meanings have commonality: they refer to that which is invisible to human sight and which gives evidence of force in motion. This force is capable of producing visible effects. Note the continuation of Jesus words quoted above at John 3:8: “The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone that has been born from the spirit.” Here, the one born from spirit is compared to the wind. You can’t see either the wind or the one born to heavenly life, but they both can be perceived through their actions. So why are spirit beings seen? Let’s take the account of Daniel when he received the prophecy concerning Medo-Persia and Greece. After seeing the vision God’s angel, Gabriel, appeared to him and explained it to him. Here is how Daniel explains the appearance: Dan 8:15 Then it came about that, while I myself, Daniel, was seeing the vision and seeking an understanding, why, look! there was standing in front of me someone in appearance like an able-bodied man. Sometimes they are simply referred to as men, but in this instance Daniel goes a bit further and calls him “someone in appearance like an able-bodied man.” The implication being that he was not just a man but simply appeared as such to interact with Daniel. And that is the explanation for every instance that a spirit shows himself in human form and is called a man. Every time I can think of where an angel from heaven comes in contact with humans, he is doing otherworldly things or the person’s reaction clearly indicates that they recognize he is not just a man even though he may be referred to as such. Judges 13:8-22 And Manoah began to entreat Jehovah and say: “Excuse me, Jehovah. The man of the true God that you just sent, let him, please, come again to us and instruct us as to what we ought to do to the child that will be born.”… Manoah did not know that he was Jehovah’s angel…And He was doing something in a wonderful way while Manoah and his wife were looking on. So it came about that, as the flame ascended from off the altar heavenward, then Jehovah’s angel ascended in the flame of the altar while Manoah and his wife were looking on. At once they fell upon their faces to the earth… Then it was that Manoah knew that he had been Jehovah’s angel. Consequently Manoah said to his wife: “We shall positively die, because it is God that we have seen.” So if “angel” only implies “messenger,” why doesn’t Manoah know that this angel is Jehovah’s messenger when he prayed to God to send him back to instruct them further? What lets him know that it is Jehovah’s angel, the fact that he brought Jehovah’s message or superhuman acts he performed? quote:“Star” and “angel” in revelation does in some instances refer to the shepherds of the congregations. But where’s the confusion and contradiction? How is it that you know to go to Revelation to find the very few instances where “angel” is used in this way? The answer is that it’s obvious. The context let’s you know what it means. You’re really reaching to make a point, because words can have different meanings in any writings or speech. If someone is confused it could just mean that they don’t get it, not that the writing itself is confusing. The Psalms call judges in Israel “gods” because of their authority. What’s your point? You and a friend are spelunking. Deep into a cave you discover a long wall with what seems to be some sort of ancient art. You recognize certain shapes that seem to be repeated made with very simplistic lines and curves – a man, a woman, a child, an animal, mountains, trees, etc. What’s puzzling is that they are neatly arranged in columns and rows and by the level of decay seem to have been drawn at different times and maybe even by different artists. On top of that, it’s not very artistic. Upon calling your friend over he is not puzzled and informs you that this is not artwork, but writings of one of the ancient cultures that occupied that area many centuries ago. He even claims to be able to read it and says it contains the history of the culture recorded over many years. So, would you conclude that because you can’t understand it, it can’t be understood? If so, how can that position be considered reasonable? Or would you consider the possibility that it may be clear to the people who wrote it and anyone else who is literate in that language, such as your friend? Your understanding of the Bible leads you to see a confusing, contradictory mishmash of men from another culture and time. Have you considered the possibility that it’s confusing to you simply because you don’t get it? If I said general relativity was nonsense because I don’t get it, how much would I be ridiculed by the brainiacs on these boards? I don’t think the Bible makes sense because I have faith in it, I have faith because it makes sense. When I read I see a harmonious and unified message from our Creator. It explains who we are, how we got here, and where we’re going. It clearly presents God and tells how he will carry out his will. Using men to record his dealings with humans in a book is the best way he could have conveyed this information. I didn’t always believe this. I told you before I went through an agnostic stage, so your statements about how I would be threatened by the Bible not being what it claims fall flat. Who wrote this book you’re recommending? Is he a Christian? Formerly a Christian? What is it about? Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
| Man or God in General | |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Monday, September 17 2007 15:44
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quote:You think we look silly!? Why are naturalists so self-deprecating? I think our race is particularly beautiful, especially when compared with other creation, and even more so when enhanced by beautiful inner qualities that only humans seem capable of exhibiting. I don’t know if hummingbirds have faith, but maybe you could ask one. By the way our brain along with our body gives us mastery. We’re not the biggest, fastest, or strongest but there is a certain balance to our gifts. And saying nothing besides our brain makes us unique is like saying a gun is not deadly except for the fact that it shoots bullets. Our brain is the most complex thing we know of. It’s the only organ in the universe that tries to understand itself. It gives us the use our mouth, lips, facial muscles, and tongue to use language. Every people has had it, whereas no animals do (as far as we know). We are peerless among living things on this planet. What’s funny is even the atheist knows innately that we’re special. When you see a beaver’s dam or a beehive in the woods you think, “that’s natural.” If you see a manmade dam or a house you think, “that’s not natural” or “it’s artificial.” Why isn’t a the Hoover dam or a condo “part of nature?” It’s because we recognize that what we do is different from everything else that happens on this world. We also seem to recognize ourselves as protectors of it. We certainly know that none of its other inhabitants can endanger its very existence (at least the life on it) as we can. So, forgive me if, as sit communicating with people all over the world and debating existence, I have a feeling that I am more than an animal. You say religion is an opiate. I say artificial ideas that ignore the obvious and speak slightingly about marvelous things are. The ancients are belittled on these boards as ignorant and dim-witted when compared to us, but I’m missing all of the supposed enlightenment. If you can program a computer, but when you learn you have billions upon billions of copies of programming more advanced than anything you could dream of in your body that codes for the organ that allows you to program and you conclude there’s no Programmer or put down his work it’s plain backwards. You’re outsmarted by the guy that says, “Wow! Who did that?!” Any technology or so-called knowledge you have is not redeeming you, because we’ve always had those things. Psalm 139:14-16 I shall laud you because in a fear-inspiring way I am wonderfully made. Your works are wonderful, As my soul is very well aware… Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, And in your book all its parts were down in writing, As regards the days when they were formed And there was not yet one among them. ------------------- quote:You missed the point. They don’t marry like humans. And women are mentioned quite frequently in the Bible, but angels are always masculine. Ge 6:1,2 Now it came about that when men started to grow in numbers on the surface of the ground and daughters were born to them, then the sons of the true God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose. 1. Why are the ones taking wives “sons of God,” whereas the ones taken are “daughters of men?” 2. What was wrong with the former marrying the latter, so that God imprisoned them until they are judged? 3. Why is does Jude 6, 7 refer to their actions with women as fornication and unnatural? By the way, all of us are not called God’s children. That relationship between God and fallen humans is only possibly through reconciliation. Humanity in general is disowned. De 32:5 They have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted! 2 Co 6:17, 18 17 “‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take YOU in.’” “‘And I shall be a father to YOU, and YOU will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.” Re 21:7 Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son. So, it’s true that we sin, but the God’s promises dignify by letting us know we can be much better than we are if we truly want to. quote:That’s an interesting theory, but not found in the Bible. What source is this from, or is this a Revelation of Synergy? ;) quote:Then why did you quote from it - drawing conclusions about Jesus preaching to dead men? You can’t have it both ways. On second thought, I guess you can if you feel that when you examine someone’s writings an acceptable tool is your feelings on what it should mean. quote:Biblically we’re not. To be clear I’m not arguing that something being in the Bible makes it right, although that’s certainly what I believe. So if you think you are a spirit, that’s on you. I’m saying, if you want to understand what the Christians and Hebrews who penned the bible believed, you need to use the Bible to do it. They saw a clear distinction and difference between spirits and humans. John 3:6 What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. quote:Ps 115:16 As regards the heavens, to Jehovah the heavens belong, But the earth he has given to the sons of men. Do humans come from angels? Acts 17:26 And he made out of one man every nation of men, to dwell upon the entire surface of the earth So humans are a distinct creation from the angels. The angels were made first. They do not marry as humans do. They are spirits. Humans are flesh. Angels are stronger than humans. Humans are meant to live on earth. These are all biblical teachings on angels. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
| Man or God in General | |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Saturday, September 15 2007 22:46
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quote:Yes! Soon there will be enough of us and we will crush the infidel…no wait, that’s a different religion. Seriously though, I thought the what-if-God-is-lying-argument started off valid too. It wasn’t fraught with fallacy like the either-God-is-evil-or-he’s-weak argument or the scripture misapplication arguments. That’s why I asked what the motive would be, or if there was any evidence. Why would the God that created galaxy clusters, the human brain, hummingbirds, and romance lie? It’s like if you’re going on and on about how great your mother is and how much she sacrificed for you and I say, “But what if she really hates you and raising you was a ruse just so she could break into your house and steal your stuff?!” You might have never considered that possibility. For a second you might even think of Mom differently, but at some point without any proof or any reason why that proposition should be considered valid it has to be discounted. It has absolutely no teeth. One must examine evidence and proof. That’s what faith is about. ----------------------- quote:It’s not my intent to argue against any possibility that may pop into someone’s mind. I wanted to show you the clear, biblical teaching on that matter. He did preach to spirits, though. Maybe you misunderstood me. quote:Oh but they are… at least for me. If I see a better position than my own anywhere I accept it. I’ve been converted or at least had ideas expanded more than a few times on these boards. In particular, your thread in human-induced global warming was compelling. Admittedly, I was unconvinced already, but you pulled me a bit further in your direction. quote:Much of Christendom’s beliefs and practices are extra-biblical and even pagan at times. I go to great lengths to ensure mine are not. That doesn’t mean I don’t get caught with a few lingering viewpoints that are not biblical every now and again, but I don’t think my understanding on angels would be included in those. Your first statement on the meaning of angel is accurate. Your second is not, save the “magical” part. They are clearly spiritual and super-non-human beings. You should probably avoid starting an argument off with “The Bible doesn’t say.” The Bible is a big book with many translations and unless you know it very thoroughly you can find yourself eating crow a lot. I’ve eaten my fair share. Mark 12:25 For when they rise from the dead, neither do men marry nor are women given in marriage, but are as angels in the heavens. – Angels don’t marry as humans do. The implication being that they are asexual. That is why they’re never referred to in the feminine, only as “he” or “sons of God.” Job 38:4, 7 Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you do know understanding… When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause? – The angelic sons of God are more ancient than humans, being there when the earth was created. That means they can’t be spirits of humans. 2 Pet 2:11 whereas angels, although they are greater in strength and power, do not bring against them an accusation in abusive terms, not doing so out of respect for Jehovah. – The angels are superhuman. Heb 1:7 Also, with reference to the angels he says: “And he makes his angels spirits, and his public servants a flame of fire.” – The angels are spirit creatures. Indeed the Bible does not say that angels made “some weird half-human species that God somehow saw as a threat” with women. It says “they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.” (Ge 6:4) So they were powerful, famous men - indeed the Septuagint says they were giants, but not half-breeds. While the Bible is clear that the angels are superhuman and can do superhuman things, it is also quite clear that they appeared to humans as men from time to time as you noted. So one would conclude that they are (or were) able to take on human bodies. With a human body they would be able to reproduce with humans. Their children would be human. The Bible does not indicate otherwise. On this note it's interesting that other cultures have traditions that have the gods coming to earth and reproducing with women to make powerful children. It's also noteworthy that many pagan holidays involving remembrance and worship of the dead [e.g. Halloween (Oct 31), All Souls Day (Nov 2), The Day of the Dead(Nov 1, 2), the Celtic festival for Samhain, the god of the dead (Nov1)] have similar practices, ideologies, and occur around the time the Biblical account has the children of these angels dying in the flood, the seventeenth day of the second month, which nearly corresponds to our November. (Ge 7:11) As you said, “where there’s smoke…” quote:My life experience shows an abundance of evidence that God is real and active in my life. I feel and see it. Many of the Christians I know tell me the same thing. Maybe you’re talking to the wrong ones. I’ve never seen a sea split or the universe created, but those are not everyday occurrences even in the scriptures. God does different things at different times, but he’s always working. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
| Man or God in General | |
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Lifecrafter
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written Friday, September 14 2007 09:21
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The funny thing is that I agree with you. I'm always looking for better ways to understand everything. When I hear them, which is pleasantly often, I absorb and adapt. But there has to be a real basis and it has to be in accord with logic. I'm ready for my whole concept of anything to be torn down and rebuilt, but I'm not giving it up for shaky reasoning. If you tell me something doesn’t exist and I’m looking right at it, I may engage you in discussion about it, you may even be able to teach me something, but not very much. Definitely not enough for a paradigm change. You’d have to have an extremely thorough and reasoned argument. I’m not seeing that kind of reason. And it’s not as if I don’t understand you, because I do. Let’s take your view of the soul and death for example. Not only is it not in harmony with the scriptures, but it is not in harmony with observed reality. quote:First of all it does not say Jesus preached to “dead souls.” It says he preached to spirits. You read something that’s not there because of your beliefs. We all do it, but you have to train yourself not to. So are these spirits “dead souls?” Ps 146:3, 4 Do not put your trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs. His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish. So once a man’s spirit goes he doesn’t have thoughts or actions. He can’t be preached to or imprisoned anywhere (unless you consider a state of lifelessness imprisonment). The Bible is overwhelmingly explicit and consistent on that principle. There are a handful of scriptures, like the one you quoted, that would seem to say otherwise, but upon closer inspection they are all in harmony. So these spirits can't be from dead people. Who are they then? The scripture itself tells us! They are spirits who disobeyed during Noah’s day? Were these somehow disobedient men or was there some other notable group who was disobedient during those days? Ge 6:2 Then the sons of the true God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves. And Peter himself in his second letter 2 Pe 2:4 Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment And Jude for good measure Jude 6 And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. The spirits are rebellious angels. But your question is still good. Why preach to them? Can they be saved? No, the scriptures are clear that they are being reserved for judgment, in this case the adverse judgment of everlasting destruction. The word here translated “preach” is from the Greek “kerysso.” It means “proclaim” (good or bad news), as distinguished from “euaggelizomai,” “declare good news.” So Christ came to them as a herald of bad news. How does this fit in with what we know of the human make-up? Our emotions, thoughts, and memories are housed in the brain. When the brain is damaged or decays, who we are is damaged. When the brain dies as far as we can observe, the person is gone. So, if you were going to try to convince me otherwise, you’d have to do so from the scriptures and it would need to fit what we can observe. Also your position would have to make sense. You mentioned a resurrection for these spirits, but if they are alive somewhere, why would they need a resurrection? I firmly believe in the resurrection, but that means a bringing back to life. The person has to be dead first. Am I open to the possibility that I’m wrong? Absolutely! But you or anyone else would have a long way to go toward convincing me of that. That’s what I’m saying. What I believe makes sense to me and fits in with what I see. If you have something that fits better and makes more sense then I am all ears. Glaring misapplication of scriptures and logical flaws like this one don’t do it for me though. If that makes me closed-minded and childish in your eyes, so be it. I don’t know a better way of approaching things. Alorael posted a link a few weeks ago that had the best explanation for continuation of life after death that I have ever seen, from an atheist at that (I love it when atheists get spiritual). He theorized that consciousness might be like a radio broadcast and our brains like receivers. His evidence was supposed contact from beyond the grave. That’s interesting and even more comforting to me in some ways than my own beliefs, but I would not be willing to throw all of my beliefs about what we are in exchange for that without a whole lot of backup. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
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written Friday, September 14 2007 05:53
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quote:Context is certainly not the only key, but it is probably the easiest one to turn. Part of the biblical basis for it is at 2 Tim 3:16, 17 where it says all scripture is “inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, reproving, and for setting things straight.” So if you want to get a meaning, you need to use all scriptures to do it. The truth of the matter is you still aren’t going to get it unless someone shows you and you want to be shown. And there is something to be shown. And it’s definitely not the scattered thoughts of patriarchal shepherds over 1600 expressing their spirituality. And you have definitely missed it. You’ve got the puzzle pieces. You even have a few of them stuck together properly, but not enough to see the big picture. Now this is not to say that anyone knows everything or always understands perfectly. That attitude would leave no room for further enlightenment. There’s a proverb that says it well: But the path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established. - Pr 4:18 I know a few of my pieces may be forced in the wrong position and I’ve got open spaces still left to fill, but I do see a lighted picture. And it’s certainly not owing to my intelligence. If that were the case, you and some of the others here would probably be able to teach me a thing or two about the scriptures. The idea that there are many pictures or many Bibles because people have different interpretations is not logical. What does our understanding centuries later have to do with the intent whenever the words were spoken or penned? The word of God being alive refers to the affect it along with its Author can have on a person. It does not mean it changes depending on the person. The Bible means what it means and what it always has meant. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Thursday, September 13 2007 22:11
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Enjoy your book. Let us know about the new plateaus of enlightenment you reach. I won't bother how wrong you are about everything in your posts. :) I will tell you that the Bible does use animals to represent different nations. Rahab, in particular is used to represent Egypt. Check context in Isaiah and the Psalms. Context context context! Verses don't exist in a vacuum. They're a part of books and the Bible as a whole. I know you know that, but if you don't treat them that way, you'll never get it. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Thursday, September 13 2007 16:15
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quote:m-w.com 1 a : morally reprehensible : SINFUL, WICKED <an evil impulse> b : arising from actual or imputed bad character or conduct <a person of evil reputation> 3 a : causing harm : PERNICIOUS <the evil institution of slavery> b : marked by misfortune : UNLUCKY I don’t understand your question about moral components. An event that is pernicious, like the Titanic sinking, is evil(3) simply for the reason that it causes great loss of life. This says nothing of morality. Here is the relevance, Salmon: God can commit evil(3) acts, but he is never evil(1). That’s why I made the distiction. quote:This scripture when taken in context is actually making the opposite point. Isa 54:15-17 If anyone should at all make an attack, it will not be at my orders. Whoever is making an attack upon you will fall even on account of you. Look! I myself have created the craftsman, the one blowing upon the fire of charcoal and bringing forth a weapon as his workmanship. I myself, too, have created the ruinous man for wrecking work. Any weapon whatever that will be formed against you will have no success, and any tongue at all that will rise up against you in the judgment you will condemn. This is the hereditary possession of the servants of Jehovah, and their righteousness is from me,” is the utterance of Jehovah. God is speaking a prophecy to his people and assuring them that whoever attacks them will not be doing so at his orders and as such they are assured that they will not be conquered. To make them confident he is reminding them that he is the one that created man, and that includes the guy that makes weapons and the guy that wants to use them against them. He’s not saying that he’s moved the waster to destroy his people as you seem to be implying. It’s the exact opposite. He's going to stop the waster from destroying. When you see statements and you think that it’s saying that God is making somebody do bad, you should probably check the context. That’s not a biblical teaching. Anybody that does bad does so because they decided to. We all have freedom to chose. “God made me do it,” just like its cousin “the devil made me do it,” doesn’t fly with anybody. The reason no one buys it is because they recognize that the buck stops with them when they do wrong and if you wrong them they're not allowing you to point to someone else. I explained “evil” above. Note how it’s contrasted with “peace” just as light is contrasted with darkness. He’s saying that he makes calamity for his enemies (in this instance Babylon, prophesying their fall to Medo-Persia) and peace for his people. quote:I understand that. Servants of God have had similar sentiments that are recorded in the Bible. Ecclesiastes 8:14 There exists a vanity that is carried out on the earth, that there exist righteous ones to whom it is happening as if for the work of the wicked ones, and there exist wicked ones to whom it is happening as if for the work of the righteous ones. I said that this too is vanity. Habakkuk 1:2, 3 How long, O Jehovah, must I cry for help, and you do not hear? How long shall I call to you for aid from violence, and you do not save? Why is it that you make me see what is hurtful, and you keep looking upon mere trouble? And why are despoiling and violence in front of me, and why does quarreling occur, and why is strife carried? Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Thursday, September 13 2007 10:27
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quote:By definition "evil" does not have to have a moral component. It can just mean something that causes harm. So the titanic crashing was evil by that definition. With the WTC there is a moral component as it was not an accident, so it would fit under both definitions. Heroin addiction is also not an accident. It has a moral component. If you don't think subjecting your mind and your body, and your loved ones for that matter, to the affects of heroin is morally wrong then I guess we disagree. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Thursday, September 13 2007 08:38
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We were talking about an obsession with theatrical performances. What did you think we were talking about? Illegal drugs? Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Thursday, September 13 2007 08:04
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Really!? I thought there would be 1 or 2 other people that agreed with me. I find that most people don't believe in the Bible - even church-going folks. I doubt that the people who voted that the Bible is God's word are representative of society. Maybe in the US it is 10% though. I'm not completely sure. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Thursday, September 13 2007 07:14
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Synergy, How was the date? I want to address the 4 difficult issues you raised. I’ll go from what I consider easy to difficult. OT/NT Division quote:This is what made your argument strong. Israel’s history had plenty of war, much of it ordained by God. Christians have standing orders from Christ that we are no longer warring with other humans. I think this is your argument. So you went from what God is doing to what his instructions are for his servants. That’s a little bit of a bait-and-switch, but a worthwhile one. First of all this is not uniform even in the Hebrew Scriptures. Noah didn’t fight anyone. He built the ark. God did the destroying. Second, the OT was clear that humans would no longer be fighting. Isa 4:4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matter straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore. So when God brings adverse judgment against all the nations, as both the OT and the NT are abundantly clear he will do, it will be as foreshadowed in the Psalms: “A thousand will fall at your very side, And ten thousand at your right hand; To you it will not come near. Only with your eyes will you look on And see the retribution itself of the wicked ones.” (Ps 91:7, 8) Or with King Jehoshaphat of Israel and his army when he prayed to Jehovah for help when he was outnumbered by Ammon and Moab and he was instructed that the battle was God’s not his and that he would not need to fight. (2 Ch 20:15-17) Also think about it from a practical perspective. God’s chosen people were grouped together as one nation during the days of Israel. As prophesied in Isaiah above, such was not to be the case forever. God’s people would be in all the nations. What sense would it make for God’s people to kill each other? So (1) the OT is not uniform in that God’s people are instructed to wage God’s battles and (2) it was prophesied in the OT that God’s servants would not practice warfare in the future. While you might argue quite successfully that Christians are different from Israel, this does not show a change in God. quote:Ex 23:4 Should you come upon your enemy’s bull or his ass going astray, you are to return it without fail to him. Prov 25:21 If the one hating you is hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he is thirsty, give him water to drink. quote:Mat 24:30, 38, 39 And then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory… For as they were in those days before the flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark; and they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Luke 19:43, 44 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification with pointed stakes and will encircle you and distress you from every side, and they will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you, because you did not discern the time of your being inspected.” 1 Th 1:6-8 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. Rev 16:14 They are, in fact, expressions inspired by demons and perform signs, and they go forth to the kings of the entire inhabited earth, to gather them together to the war of the great day of God the Almighty. There are a lot more that speak of God’s destruction of the wicked. So no, I see no change with God. His personality and his purpose become clearer in the NT, but that is true for all the scriptures. We know more about him by the time we finish Malachi than when we started in Genesis. quote:What superstition? Are you saying the Bible puts forth superstitious views or that some cultures in the Bible were superstitious? There are people now who are superstitious. Just last night I had a conversation with a friend who said he doesn’t like to go to funerals and he doesn’t like to be near cemeteries because he doesn’t like dead bodies. I asked him if he felt the dead could harm him and he said no, he doesn’t have a good reason. When he was a child there was a saying in his culture that if you see a dead body you will have some kind of nightmares (I think it was lost in translation from Mandarin to English). I don’t so much disagree with your statement about God’s plan to let us fumble around, I disagree with the time it was instated. That was absolutely not his original plan. He laid out his original plan when he gave Adam and Eve instructions. Ge 1:28 Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.” He wasn’t just running off at the mouth about something he knew would not happen. This was truly what he wanted from them and they were “blessed” to be able to carry out their assignment. But, they deviated and so he plotted a new course that would still bring us right to where Adam and Eve were supposed to lead – a paradise earth filled with their perfect children blessed of God and with the animals in subjection to them. That has never changed. Only now it will be without Adam and Eve. I firmly believe this account is historical. It is very simple and fits better to me than any other explanation I know. I know the sentiment of most regarding Adam and Eve, that it is just a myth or an allegory to teach some deeper truth. That is not the biblical presentation though. It is presented as a real account and everyone from Noah to Abraham to Moses, David, and Jesus has their genealogy traced back to Adam. I think anyone that doesn’t acknowledge this as a real account is really missing out on knowing God’s wisdom, love, justice, and power. quote:Agreed. 100%. Is this idea the basis of your OT/NT argument? If so, you're preaching to the choir. I agreed a long time ago that the books show us different things about God. David experienced God’s mercy and care and could read about Moses’ relationship with God. Solomon had a special gift of wisdom and lived in a time of peace with the surrounding nations, so his insight is going to be different. Jesus was far more enlightened than any other prophet. So his words are going to reflect an intimacy with God that Moses, David, and Solomon lacked. That being said, it is not a different God that is being presented. It is quite clearly different aspects of the same God with the same personality and the same standards. Are you aware that much of the NT is an expounding on and clarification of the OT? The latter is quoted literally hundreds of times in the former. It's not as if Jesus or his disciples were saying, "Worship this new God!" They were basically saying, "This teaching is a continuation of worship to the God of our forefathers." Mat 5:17, 18 Do not think I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill; for truly I say to YOU that sooner would heaven and earth pass away than for one smallest letter or one particle of a letter to pass away from the Law by any means and not all things take place. Acts 24:14 But I do admit this to you, that, according to the way that they call a ‘sect,’ in this manner I am rendering sacred service to the God of my forefathers, as I believe all the things set forth in the Law and written in the Prophets. Like Jesus and Paul, whom you seem willing to admit had spiritual enlightenment, I believe the things set forth in the Law and the Prophets - or the "Old Testament," as you call it. SoT: “Stuff about telephone poles” – now you don’t have to say it. EDIT: All 66 books still harmoniously carry one sigular theme. [ Thursday, September 13, 2007 07:18: Message edited by: Stillness ] Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Wednesday, September 12 2007 21:13
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quote:“Bad choice with destructive consequences” is pretty much the definition of evil. You don’t get too much more evil than something that destroys and enslaves your mind and body. Ask a heroine addict if it’s evil. My friends widow would strongly disagree with you. Evil decisions, by their very nature, destroy, erode and bring pain. The can bring some measure of satisfaction or pleasure, but it’s not real joy – not the kind that comes from truly good things. A rapist will never get joy and fulfillment from his violence like a husband and wife will have from their wholesome relationship. The same goes for a murderer or a thief. Gain from hard work trumps theft and a murderer won’t have peace. Most people can’t lie without feeling bad unless they’re some kind of sociopath. Some may feel less bad than others due to an eroded conscience, but lying certainly does not bring real joy. I don’t know what politics has to do with anything. quote:God didn’t create Satan or anyone with improper proclivities. Do you have a natural tendency to do heroine (assuming you’ve never done it)? No. Yet you could desire to feel its effects, knowing how destructive it is. Most people push this stupid thought out of their minds, but some don’t and act on it. Is God to blame if they do? Well, he allowed it, but c’mon. Give God a break. He can’t be blamed because somebody decided to do something stupid. Proverbs 19:3 It is the foolishness of an earthling man that distorts his way, and so his heart becomes enraged against Jehovah himself. Ecclesiastes 7:29 See! This only I have found, that the [true] God made mankind upright, but they themselves have sought out many plans. Satan and man were created perfectly. They “distorted” what God gave them. You can blame him for allowing it, but I’d rather credit him for taking a bad situation and turning it into something good – which is exactly what God started to do from the very beginning of man’s fall. Reconciliation and restoration is a major them of the Bible. It shows how he has taken steps toward this and there’s only very little left to be accomplished before he’s finished. quote:At the risk of sounding like a broken record, it says we were made in his image, implying we have qualities like his. And yes the Bible is quite clear that we can know God. That doesn’t mean that we understand every single aspect of him, but we can be friends with him and know him. Loke 10:22 All things have been delivered to me by my Father, and who the Son is no one knows but the Father; and who the Father is, no one knows but the Son, and he to whom the Son is willing to reveal him. Your question on God’s truthfulness is good and one I think of myself sometimes. There are a lot of different ways I reason on this. Here’s one: Let’s say a disaster strikes, for example your home is destroyed by fire. Now let’s say your father comes over and says, “Don’t worry son, I’ll rebuild your home.” Let’s say the next day he has a team demolish the remains. The day after that he has a survey team there. The third day he begins drawing up a blueprint. A bit more time passes and he has a foundation laid. Then a frame. Then floors. All the time he’s assuring you that the project will be completed. At this point do you have any reason to doubt him? Of course your father is human and he could die before he gets done, but besides that it would seem the old man is true to his promise. As soon as things went wrong in the realm of mankind, God promised to fix them. As time passed his plan was revealed more and more and started to take shape. He formed a nation from which a promised seed, the messiah would come. He gave a law that would foreshadow what this messiah would do and promised that this nation could play a role in his blessing of the whole world. As promised he sent the messiah, who happened to be his firstborn and most beloved son. By his word and actions he demonstrated God’s love for humanity, even to the point of suffering and dying. He started a congregation of those that would be the core of the kingdom he promised would bless humanity. And he’s given instructions to anyone who desires to be a part of that kingdom. What reason do I have to doubt? If he’s lying, what is the point of this house he’s built, even at cost to himself, that just needs a few more pieces in place before it’s ready to be occupied? quote:This is an astute observation and I actually have to think to respond. I’m also surprised with your knowledge of Daniel. You’re claim on a OT/NT division is starting to develop some teeth. Even your Bible-God-is-evil argument is looking like it has a little merit. Wow! This is definitely worth picking through your unpleasant formatting. What happened to mythical creatures and scripture-out-of-context arguments? Another day, though. For now I sleep… Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Wednesday, September 12 2007 06:26
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quote:Either those or the biblical explanation. quote:No one will be allowed make a choice that will cause irreparable harm. It is in those instances that God intervenes. Any “joy” you get from bad choices is counterfeit. A heroine addict (I’ve known a couple) will tell you that they’ve experienced a better feeling than you can imagine. One of the addicts I knew died because he had destroyed his body, though. In fact, he had overcome his addiction years before but it still caught up with him. So heroine gave him a good feeling, but never real joy. It brought pain and emptiness and was not sustainable. quote:Unless God has the power to make us to be able to be able to relate to him on some level, even giving us qualities like his own. Then we could understand. If he was not smart enough to make us understand him or didn’t want to, then you and Synergy are right. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Wednesday, September 12 2007 05:14
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Omnipotent doesn't require that everything goes your way. Even if you present a definition that agrees with you it becomes a pointless semantic argument as I don't know of that word appearing in any translations of the Bible. God does whatever he wants and he gives certain creatures choice as well. That means they can decide for themselves what to do. Whether God allows it is up to him, but the deciding rests on the creation. By "better" I mean more logical and harmonious with obeserved reality. An evil creator would fail to explain a lot, like why we can derive so much enjoyment from life. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Wednesday, September 12 2007 04:44
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quote:Why should I have a problem when God is the Universal Sovereign and all-powerful and as I said: Rom 8:20, 21 For the creation was subjected to futility, not by its own will but through him that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God. What’s ironic is that you discount Christianity and your mental exploration has in part led you to some Christian truth. The issue that I’m now taking is you calling your God more loving than mine when your claim in regard to human suffering is that your God “willed that it be our experience, seeing a higher purpose and ultimate benefit from our having done so.” How does your God wishing suffering on us make him better than mine? quote:No I’m not. This is exactly my point! It’s initial intent that determines goodness and not so goodness in our two scenarios. Scenario 1: God made man in perfection with great capacity for expression in thought and action, to have an intimate relationship with his Creator, and make a race of humans with this same ability. This gift was instead used to join a rebellion. The Creator was disappointed but instead of silencing the rebels he allowed this rebellion to continue for a time and used it to resolve issues raised during the rebellion. After this time things will be as he planned them to be, in fact better in some ways. Scenario 2: God saw fit from the beginning to make humans suffer to temper us in some way. When he thinks we have suffered enough he will relieve us and we will be better for it. And you say my God is evil… I appreciate you answering my third question even though you ignored the first two. It stregnthens my belief that there are no better answers than the biblical ones. People who want to make Jehovah out to be wicked always have as an alternative atheism, a wicked God, or no answers at all. quote:I’m assuming you’re contrasting God’s response to Adam and Eve with his response to Cain? God doesn’t overlook any crime. He didn’t overlook Cain’s and he hasn’t overlooked any since then. And the sin was never about fruit. They had a whole garden full of all the fruit they could have eaten. The crime was this: Gen 3:17 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it...’” They chose to listen to Satan and themselves over their Creator, who had given them everything. Ah, the power of a pretty face... Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Tuesday, September 11 2007 20:25
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There's no manmade program that compares to humans. Humans were made to reflect God's qualities. That's what made us children. That means great flexibility of mind, awareness, creativity, reasoning, freedom. When used properly it is beautiful. You all don't seem to recognize that your scenarios of what God should have done sacrifice so much of what makes life enjoyable. We can be all we are and more and still have perfection. If you want to use the biblical account to blame God since he created man with the capacity to rebel and allowed it to happen I don't really have a big problem with it. The Bible itself does that. It also shows why he allowed it and how he will fix it. Somehow your logic is equating "can rebel" with "must rebel," though. That seems to be flawed logic. Thinking that the only two possibilities are God making a mistake and God wanting humans to be evil is also flawed. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Tuesday, September 11 2007 19:15
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You think the ideal is a God who forces his will on his family. I think the ideal is a God that lets his family follow him out of love and feels comfortable enough with the rightness of his ways that he doesn't have to make everyone robotic. Abuse of free will is where evil comes from. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Tuesday, September 11 2007 12:41
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Well said. I didn't know another way to say it. But I'll try to be more concise. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Tuesday, September 11 2007 10:52
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quote:I don’t have a problem with any kind of discipline for anyone as long as it’s not heavy handed. Israel used corporal punishment not just for slaves, but also for anyone disorderly. It also used monetary punishment. I don’t really like to speak against my government, but fines and beatings are far superior to imprisonment IMO, which did not exist under Jewish law. You don’t get criminals that hurt society and then make them a further burden in to society prison. quote:Christendom is not one united entity. But in general, I agree with you. I could not be in such a faith. What I do has to make sense and have real meaning. Much of Christendom’s faith is of the God-is-a-mystery-don’t-question-the-Bible type. quote:It did apply to the end of the Jewish system of things. Here is where the Bible gets deep though and you begin to see God’s wisdom – some prophecies have dual fulfillments. So well after 70 CE the apostle John received a revelation of the last days that would involve the complete destruction of all wickedness and the ushering in of a thousand year reign under Christ. That hasn’t happened yet. 66-70 C.E. was a minor fulfillment. What’s coming will be on a worldwide scale like the deluge, but more thorough. (Mat 24:21, 22, 37) quote:Confusion could come from Satan’s lies. It could also come from a lack of understanding. For example, if you live in western culture and “house” to you means “building that your immediate family lives in” and you don’t take the time to actually use a dictionary and see what the second definition is, find out how other cultures (in particular Eastern or African ones) use the word, or how the Bible itself uses the word in other places, then you will be confused. This also goes toward motivation. If you want to understand the you might do actual research or ask someone who knows, instead of getting information from people who hate the Bible and/or don’t have a clue about it themselves. You would also not be critically searching for disharmony. If you and I are having a conversation and I’m hanging on your every word with the intent of catching a contradiction, I’ll miss your meaning. You also may not care to share your meaning with me since I’m not listening anyway. Which brings us to the most important factor in understanding – God himself. The Bible is clear that his spirit and his representatives are always involved in understanding his message. If you don’t have the right attitude he simply will not bother with making you understand. Acts 8:29-31 So the spirit said to Philip: “Approach and join yourself to this chariot.” Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him. Mat 13:10-15 So the disciples came up and said to him: “Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” In reply he said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted…For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’ House 1. a building in which people live; residence for human beings. 2. a household. 3. (often initial capital letter) a family, including ancestors and descendants: the great houses of France; the House of Hapsburg. quote:The whole “New Testament” is about God’s kingdom under Christ that is going to do that very thing. In fact, that’s what the whole “Old Testament” is about. What book are you reading where you’re seeing something different? God is the same from cover to cover. He works off of the same principles. He has the same standards for his servants. His personality is exactly the same. The distinction is imagined. Your comments are making me think you’re saying God doesn’t do the exact same thing all the time so he has changed. I don’t think that’s logical. In fact, you could make the same distinction between books within the so-called Testaments if you wanted to. It’s imagined though. I could give you hundreds of Christian Scriptures that mention vengeance, destruction, and judgment and hundreds of Hebrew Scriptures that talk about God’s love, his feelings being hurt when people do bad, his joy when he sees goodness in someone, his patience, his forgiveness and mercy. I could also say that sometimes you talk about video games, at others you talk about social issues, or science, or spirituality. Should I conclude that there are different Synergies or that there is one Synergy with a multi-faceted personality and interests? The major change is Jesus presenting God more clearly. That means his love becomes more evident. That is his dominant quality. But it always has been. How many times does God forgive Israel before he gets fed up and then he still forgives them some more. How many times does he forgive really bad mistakes when a person is repentant in the Old Testament? If you know the Bible as you say then you probably know it’s difficult to count. One of my favorite sections of scripture is Ezekiel 16 where God illustrates how he feels about Israel. He paints a picture of himself as a man that finds an abandoned baby girl just born. He takes her under his protection and pampers her and provides her with love and the best things life has to offer. When she is of age and beautiful because of his care he takes her as a wife. Then she betrays him and commits adultery with partner after partner and even becomes a prostitute. After all of that he promises that he will forgive her and conclude an eternal covenant with her again even though she broke the first one. He makes this promise while she is an adulteress and a prostitute, not after she comes back to him. I seriously doubt most people would forgive their mate so graciously if at all. I think people tend to be focused on themselves and humanity and what they think God should be doing for them, while failing to see things from God’s perspective, which he readily and abundantly provides in the Bible. So no, I don’t see your point. Not even a little bit. quote:Why aren’t Lot and his daughters killed then? Why did they have no problem obeying God? Why do you think disobeying God is not a good reason to die? Do you think he owes something to humanity or the other way around? Do you think when God says something is important he’s just playing a game or his words are to be taken lightly as if it’s not the Ruler of the Universe speaking? I really don’t get your perspective. God protects them from a city full of men trying to abuse them. He compassionately drags them out of the city so they wouldn’t die. He tells them to take anyone who will leave with them out of the city as well and go to the mountains. When Lot says, “Please don’t make me go to the mountains. I want to go to a city.” God allows it and promises not to destroy that city and says he won’t act until Lot is safe. All he asks is that Lot and his people keep moving and don’t look behind. Just small things to show their obedience and support of his exercise of judgment against these very wicked cities. Her disobedience revealed that she was not on God’s side but that her heart was with those cities in which the men raped strangers who passed through. Also very telling is God’s discussion with Abraham in chapter 18:20-32 in which Abraham “reasons” with God about destruction of the city. If you can read this account and see God as unreasonable and merciless, then we’ll probably just have to agree to disagree. I think you want a lax God who never punishes wrongdoing. I thank God that he’s not that way and you reject him because he is. I personally think you fail to realize the very terrible repercussions if the God you wish for was God and also doubt that you are able to reconcile this being with reality. quote:So you aren’t going to die then? By what means are you going to live forever? quote:It’s true that Satan corrupted 2 of the 3 true human children of God have graced this planet, but that’s not God’s fault. He gave Adam and Eve everything good and they chose to abuse his gift. He also has heavenly children though. So when you look at the big picture most of God’s children are loyal. As for the rest of humanity, they are not God’s children. (Deut 32:4, 5) Good point though. quote:This, my friend, is not a good point. There are myriads of myths about all sorts of creatures, from pigs, to rats, to crows, and fish that perform all manner of fantastic acts. Are these mythological animals? Do you know what a fire ant is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_ant Do you think it’s called a fire ant because it breathes fire? What about the bombadier beetle who is able to “fire” at its enemies and kill or incapacitate them? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombadier_Beetle Very little from the animal kingdom surprises me anymore. If certain books of the Bible taught animal worship like in certain religions I would be concerned, but the fact that it refers to creatures you think never existed or that have myth surrounding them does not worry me. It’s not even a good argument. quote:I didn’t say that, nor does the Bible claim such a thing. It says that at one point all people could communicate and then God confused their languages. Of course other dialects would develop later. quote:It reliably conveys God’s message so that a person can know God and what he wants from them. 2 Tim 3:16, 17 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work. As I said, it’s confusing to you, but not to me and not to a lot of people. You see chaos and a disjointed presentation. We see a clear message and a singular theme. quote:The Nephilim died in flood. The came from the union of angels who had assumed human bodies and the human wives they took. The only other mention of “nephilim” is from the ten of the twelve spies who gave a bad report. Joshua and Caleb mentioned no nephilim. The intent of the 10 was to frighten Israel so that they would not carry out God’s instructions. They are never mentioned again. Look at the account carefully. They were exaggerating. quote:This is a good argument, but when you examine both accounts you get a clear picture of what happened. First of all God does not suggest that Satan do anything to Job. He allows it to happen to address the issues that Satan raises. Notice how the NIV sums up Job’s ordeal: Job 42:11 All his brothers and sisters and everyone who had known him before came and ate with him in his house. They comforted and consoled him over all the trouble the Lord had brought upon him, and each one gave him a piece of silver and a gold ring. And now the NWT And there kept coming to him all his brothers and all his sisters and all those formerly knowing him, and they began to eat bread with him in his house and to sympathize with him and to comfort him over all the calamity that Jehovah had let come upon him; and they proceeded each one to give him a piece of money and each one a gold ring. So did the Lord let it happen or bring it on him. The answer is both. Satan was the one who actually raised the challenge to God and directly brought the calamity upon Job. But God allowed it. Ultimately nothing happens unless God allows it. In that sense it can be said that he brought the calamity on Job and moved David to number Israel. In the case of David I suggest you read the whole account and figure out why Joab resisted David’s command to conduct the census and why David’s conscience bothered him after he did it. How does suffering fit in with your concept of God? Does he allow it? Is he powerless to stop it? Does he cause it? I think I’m being pretty cooperative in answering you, but you have not answered me. I asked you two questions: 1 Why should anyone get to live if they’re not willing to cooperate with God? 2 Are you anti-death penalty, anti-war, anti-abortion? And now 3 Explain how you harmonize the suffering that exists with your God who is much smarter, much more loving, and generally better than mine. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
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written Tuesday, September 11 2007 10:40
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quote:First of all everybody is somebody’s child. By this reasoning no one should be punished. Second if God spoke to you and told you you will die if you did a certain thing, would you think disobeying him and doing it anyway is a “small step out of line?” In fact, can you see any negative repercussions if God said he was going to administer justice in a certain way, and then when it comes time to do it he just let everything slide? What do you think would happen where you live if there was no law enforced and everyone did as they pleased? Maybe the serial killer/rapist would stand before the judge and say, “But, Your Honor, I’m a child of God!” And the prosecuting attorney would shrug and say, “Well, he’s got a point there.” Forgive my assumption if I’m wrong, but I’d guess that you, like a lot of people in our society, are probably content to see anyone who believes in the Bible being God’s word and God, as presented in the Bible, being loving as irrational, emotional, ignorant and/or stuck in some ancient time when “the gods did it” was a good answer for everything. You read where God kills thousands or hundreds of thousands and see a psychopathic murderer. I read it and see a God of love and mercy. I must be brainwashed or at least a little off right? Especially if I think my views are logical! Yet, I insist that my beliefs are based strictly on logic and not emotion. I’m not uninformed, (at least no more so than the average guy) but my assessment on what we are and our place in the universe is based on my study of nature, religion and spirituality, and much thought and meditation to try to fit the pieces all together and refine the big picture. So, if you’re content viewing people that disagree with you on the biblical God as dumb, stop here... Good. This is going to take a while, so if you get bored easily jump down to my summary, but don't post back disagreeing until you've read the reasoning behind it. Let’s start with God’s description of himself in Exodus. Exodus 20:5,6 …I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation, in the case of those who hate me; but exercising loving-kindness toward the thousandth generation in the case of those who love me and keep my commandments. And Exodus 34:6, 7 And Jehovah went passing by before his face and declaring: “Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abundant in loving-kindness and truth, preserving loving-kindness for thousands, pardoning error and transgression and sin, but by no means will he give exemption from punishment, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons and upon grandsons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation.” What we learn: 1) God does not share his position with anyone or anything else. So other gods, your family, yourself, alcohol, pleasure and whatever else could occupy first place in a person’s life, must come after him. 2) God is loving, forgiving, and merciful as you said he should be. 3) Even though he is forgiving, wrongdoing is still punished. 4) God does not just deal with us as individuals. He views us as communities and families. a. So the merits of one or a few can benefit others. b. So the faults of one or a few can harm others. We can get more, but let’s stop with these four points. First, everybody likes God’s love and mercy. That’s always the focus when people are extolling God. Everyone also likes community and family merit. You get one righteous person and their family, friends, and/or nation receives God’s favor along with him/her. What some don’t like or understand is God’s hatred of idolatry and his justice. This would be 1, 3, and 4b. The flip side of community merit - community responsibility - is particularly difficult to grasp as you and Synergy have commented on. 1 is easy. God created all things. He requires that his instructions and ways be adhered to and not anyone else’s. That is his right. Period. Case closed. 3 is a little harder, but not much. If you chose to disobey God, which is in effect idolatry, which we already established he hates, you will be punished. This is what Adam and Eve did when they sided with Satan and chose to decide for themselves what was right and wrong as opposed to listening to the one who gave them a perfect life, a beautiful home stocked with food, animal creation to enjoy, a beautiful mate, and fulfilling and rewarding work. For the sake of harmony in creation and people that want do right and live peaceably, those that do not must be punished and/or eliminated. This is the basis for all criminal law. Without this there is chaos and lawlessness. I really don’t know what else to tell anyone who disagrees with this principle. I imagine an anarchist might disagree somewhat (although I admittedly don’t know much about the anarchist movement). But I would think that even they recognize then need for some sort of standards to maintain order. Which brings us to 4b, family and community responsibility. I’ll be the first to admit this is difficult to understand and explain. Yet the Christian has to come to grips with it (either that or reject the claim in the scriptures that God’s word is contained therein) as it is seen over and over again from the beginning till the end of the Bible. All of Adam’s children suffer because of his wrongdoing; the flood kills the whole world, save eight,; communities, cities, and nations are penalized for the actions of certain members. Is God unjust? Never. Here’s why… Romans 6:23 The wages sin pays is death. So when Adam and Eve sinned the “wage” they were paid was death. Jehovah had the right to execute them immediately, in which case we wouldn’t be having this discussion – being nonexistent and all (that is of course assuming for the sake of argument that the Bible is accurate and we are all Adam’s offspring). But he did not. He allowed them to live for a time and have children. (I think it’s worth noting that the Bible records Adam as living hundreds of years after his sin during which time he witnessed generation after generation of his offspring. Not too shabby for someone who committed an open act of rebellion against the Almighty God, against whom the claim is made that he’s a murderous psychopath). Now, by the time they begin procreating they are outcasts – sinful, dying, and no longer a part of God’s universal family. Their children would be born the same way because… Job 14:4 Who can produce someone clean out of someone unclean? There is not one. (Why God allowed this is another subject. For now let’s just say he immediately set in motion a plan to undo the effects of this rebellion and to respond to issues that had been raised and these things would take time. - Genesis 3:15; Romans 8:20, 21) So, Adam’s children would be born in the same state he was when he made them – imperfect, dying, cut off from God’s favor. Any short-lived existence that any of Adam’s children would have would be due to God’s mercy and long-suffering as all of them would be deserving of death and headed in that direction. Ecclesiastes 7:10 For there is no man righteous in the earth that keeps doing good and does not sin. Stay with me. I am going somewhere with this. Right from the beginning Adam’s children recognized this predicament and so took steps to reconcile themselves to God. That is why we have the aforementioned sacrifices by Cain and Abel. Jehovah would happily accept these attempts when they are accompanied by good motivation and demonstrated by action and actually befriend sinful humans. This relationship would give them favor, but would not exempt them from punishment for sin. Ezekiel 33:11 “As I am alive,” is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “I take delight, not in the death of the wicked one, but in that someone wicked turns back from his way and actually keeps living. Turn back, turn back from YOUR bad ways, for why is it that YOU should die, O house of Israel?” We gain a couple of bits of information here. When someone (an individual or a nation) behaves particularly wickedly God would rather they turn around from badness, but if they don’t they will ultimately be destroyed. The other bit that is not so apparent is that God always gives warning first. Now let’s go back to our description of God in Exodus where he says sons and grandsons would pay for the error of fathers and then I’ll summarize. First of all we all recognize the truth of this on some level. If a parent is careless, lazy, involved in dangerous behavior, etc. their children suffer. That means that the burden of responsibility on parents is heavy, but it is their responsibility nonetheless. Second, the ancient Israelites had a saying, “Fathers are the ones that eat unripe grapes, but it is the teeth of the sons that get set on edge.” (Ezekiel 18:2) The implication being exactly what we said above – children pay for their parent’s mistakes. God actually saw fit to respond to this saying. Ezekiel 18:3, 4 ‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘it will no more continue to be YOURS to express this proverbial saying in Israel. Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.’ He went on to explain that a son could break whatever bad pattern his father had set by living righteously and thereby gaining life. Conversely if his father had set a righteous pattern, his son could break that also by being wicked and bring his own death upon himself. So community and family responsibility only goes so far. At some point people have to individually give an account for themselves to God. The righteous will live, everyone else will not. [i]Summary: I. All humans, regardless of age, sex, race, nationality, are imperfect and sinful and therefore deserving of death, not life. II. That any of us have life is due to God’s patience and mercy. III. God wants us to take advantage of any life we have and befriend him. IV. He does not want anyone to die, but after giving warning he will eventually execute wrongdoers. V. Parents have a responsibility to their children. Children can benefit or suffer depending on their parent’s behavior. At some point a child has to stand on his own merits.[/i] So now let’s take one of the difficult accounts. The flood will work. quote:So, did anyone that existed during the days of Noah deserve life? (I) No, they were all imperfect. (II) So it was due to God’s patience and mercy that they were alive. Did anyone take advantage of this patience and befriend God? (III) Yes. “Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah.” (Genesis 6:8, 9) Were there wrongdoers? Yes. So much so that “Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart.” (Genesis 6:6) Did he give warning before he took action? (IV) Yes! “For the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.” (Amos 3:7) He told Noah “The end of all flesh has come before me, because the earth is full of violence as a result of them; and here I am bringing them to ruin together with the earth.” (Genesis 6:13) Noah, as a “preacher of righteousness” alerted his contemporaries. (2 Peter 2:5) Jesus, who was an eyewitness to these events, tells us that “they took no note until the flood came and swept them all away.” (Matthew 24:39) You assume that there were other righteous people. Where were they? Why weren’t they on the ark with Noah? I’m surprised you mentioned animals and not any babies that might have been there. The answer to that would be that there were no righteous babies, so they would not be deserving of life anymore than any adults. I want to focus on human loss atm, but I would like to know your feelings on animals. Do you feel that killing animals is wrong under all circumstances? Or is it ok for food, clothing, and protection? Do you feel that animals are as important as humans? So for example: if I kill a sparrow because I feel like it should I face the same penalty as if it were a person I killed for the same reason? Here’s a very important consolation to me in regards to all the loss of human life that we see now and that has been occurring for some time now. The Bible tells us that “There is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) That would mean that anyone who has not received a judgment of eternal death can be resurrected. I don’t see why that would not include some children whose parents were destroyed by God, although I’m not 100% sure of that. quote:Why are you assuming they were unaware of this being wrong? I quoted you from their law, which was a contract that they willingly entered into with God. If you sign a contract with me and break it and I take you to court, what will the ruling be if you say, “But I didn’t know what was in the contract.” In fact, if you break the laws of your country and say, “I didn’t know this was illegal” will they say, “OK, but don’t do it again.” Where I live ignorance of the law is no excuse. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |
| The Body Snatchers in General | |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
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written Saturday, September 8 2007 16:57
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quote:Maybe I misheard, because I thought right at the beginning if the story it mentioned the police force needing more recruits and some sort of hope that this program would aid that need. I also didn't get that it was only for "troubled" kids. I thought I remembered hearing someone say it could help excessively shy children with low self-esteem. But either way, my answer is still no. For the record I respect cops and soldiers, I just wouldn't want my child to be one. So there's no way I'd put them in any military-like camp. I think children are still allowed to work at a family business. I'm fairly sure that they are in Michigan. I'm all for a firm hand of discipline and teaching responsibility. How this is done depends on the parents and the child, but it has to start young. I just left the home of Chinese family that is afraid to discipline their 6 yr old because of abuse laws. He is disrespectful and disruptive to the extreme. I think they may recognize the path he's headed down, but just lack the tools to discipline properly. That's probably true of a lot of those kids parents in the Anaheim program. Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00 |