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Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Monday, October 1 2007 20:03 Profile #237
Maybe you didn't get my sarcastic response.

If not-so-funny remarks have to be explained and discussed, is what little funniness they have sapped out?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Monday, October 1 2007 18:07 Profile #235
It made me smile, but I wasn't on the floor in tears.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Monday, October 1 2007 17:16 Profile #233
The one prophesied to come in 29 CE before the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple that would end sacrificing. (Da 9:25-27) I think eras are calculated based on his birth or something like that. ;)
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Monday, October 1 2007 14:57 Profile #230
quote:
Originally written by X:
A moment of appreciation:
—Alorael, who would call himself Jewish by practice...
Well, I have good news for you..."We have found the Messiah!"
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Sunday, September 30 2007 00:13 Profile #224
quote:
Originally written by X:
A moment of appreciation:
Alorael, who is neither a Bible-thumper nor an atheist.
Deist?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Saturday, September 29 2007 19:07 Profile #222
Twas tongue in cheek. You still don't get me Alo.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Saturday, September 29 2007 18:42 Profile #219
This thread has been over for a few days. I'm getting the feeling that some of us secretly want to keep it alive. C'mon. Admit it. You want to see rants about religion and spirituality. Discussion about the divine resonates deep inside you in a way that pondering eyewear cannot. Doesn't it? You want mundane threads about video game code and posts counting how many times you’ve posted to be redirected to God. Oh yeah, you get mad about it…at least part of you does. The rest of you is quietly yearning. You mock to cover the desire. Be honest.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, September 27 2007 02:04 Profile #207
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

The truth is that we can't say what electromagnetic fields are made of.
Happiness?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, September 26 2007 11:17 Profile #199
quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

Stillness, do forgive
No need to. I wasn't offended. You misread me it seems. I don't think you've ever offended me, because I get where you're coming from and that's not a place where you want to hurt anyone. Sure you may through a little jab every now and again, but it's not mean-spirited. I can take it. We're cool.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, September 26 2007 10:08 Profile #196
A language not having words for a thing and a thing not existing or making sense are very different and the latter does not follow from the former.

EDIT: Ah, I think we're on the same page. I posted when you edited.

[ Wednesday, September 26, 2007 10:11: Message edited by: Stillness ]
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, September 26 2007 09:44 Profile #194
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Time within the universe turns out not to conform to all our intuitions. So any suppositions about time outside the universe are such wild shots in the dark that no-one really ought to pay them any attention.
I don't see how the second statement follows from the first, but I understand if something is unknown and unknowable for the foreseeable future. i just hope you guys aren't saying "we don't know about what's outside the universe if anything, so it doesn't exist." I doubt you are. I'm probably just not understanding.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, September 26 2007 09:16 Profile #192
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

it only makes sense to speak of time within the universe
That seems an odd thing to say. I undertand if physics is limited to the observable, but how does only time within the universe make sense. Does that rule out time outside of the universe? Or are you just saying that what is outside the universe is an unknown? I can understand the latter. But, again, the former sounds presumptuous and unscientific.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, September 26 2007 05:45 Profile #190
So, "time didn't start until the universe did" means "time didn't start for this universe until the big bang." That's cool, but just doesn't seem to be a very information-laden statement. All it says is that the universe didn't exist before it existed.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, September 26 2007 05:37 Profile #189
Synergy,

I can’t address every single word you say. This thread would be quadruple the size it is. You do tend to go on. We both do. You haven’t addressed a lot of the stuff I’ve said either. But, I think I’ve done pretty well in addressing your major points and any points you specifically asked me to address.

As far as religion goes, everybody has one. You say you push away code and dogma, that’s part of your religion, or way of living, and is code or dogma itself. Your designation of your faith as spiritual and Christianity as not, is arbitrary. A religion can be spiritual or secular. Christianity has a Master who is a spirit, a God who’s a spirit, a spiritual enemy, a hope based on the spirit realm, and instructions to “see” that realm and not to focus so much on the physical. You don’t get much more spiritual.

From Merriam-Webster online
re·li·gion
1 a :the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion >b(1) :the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) :commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2:a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3archaic :scrupulous conformity :CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4:a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

spir·i·tu·al
1:of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit :INCORPOREAL <spiritual needs>
2 a :of or relating to sacred matters < spiritual songs> b:ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal < spiritual authority> <lords spiritual >
3:concerned with religious values
4:related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir>
5 a :of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b:of, relating to, or involving spiritualism :SPIRITUALISTIC

I find one of the best tools for understanding is the dictionary.

As far as me speaking from the Bible, I do so because it is God’s explanation. If you want to know how he feels and why he does things then he is the best person to look to, not me. That’s what the thread is about after all. Besides that I agree with the biblical explanation. If you want to know what my “religion” is, it’s that I believe what makes sense. The Bible says that God tries to reach people, but they push his hand away in favor of establishing their own code. Instead of looking to the Creator to set the standards of good and bad, they determine for themselves how the Creator should be followed and if he should be followed at all. I look out in the world and this is exactly what I see. I talk to a lot of people and they tell me as much. Do you know how much I hear, "I'm more spiritual than religious." When I ask people what that means they basically say "I serve God in my own way." They don’t want the truth. If I tell the contractor I want my walls painted light blue and when the job is done I have pink wallpaper and his explanation is, "I did your job in my own way because I thought that was best" there's no way I'll be pleased or that he'll get paid.

God is not the type to force obedience on people. He made animals for that, but he made us differently. He does have a personality, a mind, and feelings though. He has a way. He also has a way he wants us to behave. You can do something you think is better, but not with the expectation of his pleasure and a favorable reward when the time comes for payment.

Job 40:8 Really, will you invalidate my justice?
Will you pronounce me wicked in order that you may be in the right?

Mat 7:21-23 Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.

People have always been trying to say God is wicked so that they can justify their actions. People have always claimed to worship God and do things in his name, while in reality they reject his will. And that is why I rely so heavily on the holy scriptures. They are just as relevant now for those that want to know God as when they were written - in some ways more. Only God could be responsible for such a book. That’s what makes sense to me. It’s not because I want to believe, or I was taught to believe it. It’s because it’s the best explanation that I’ve ever heard. If there is a better god or a better explanation, then I’m all ears.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, September 26 2007 03:58 Profile #187
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

But there's nothing inherently wrong with hypothesizing that something exists that is infinite in a time dimension, at least until the evidence starts to disagree with it, as it has begun to do now.
What evidence? If you’re saying time didn’t begin for the universe until the universe begin, I don’t have a problem with that. I doubt you’re saying that though, because you wouldn’t really be saying much of anything. It seems you’re saying that time itself didn’t begin until the universe did. That presumes a great deal. Namely, that what is seen to be expanding is everything – that there is nothing else for which the clock was already ticking.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Raise your hand if you LOVE Linear RPG's! in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, September 26 2007 03:43 Profile #42
*raises hand*

Sub-genre doesn't matter so much to me as far as RPG's go. If it's done well it's good. I liked Kotor I & II. There were a lot of options in character development and even in non-PC development, especially in II. I think depth matters more than linearity, but non-linearity is definitely a plus.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Other RPGs in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, September 26 2007 03:25 Profile #9
quote:
Originally written by Kryten:

The first two, Escape Velocity and Override, were better.
Really?! EVN is vrey high on my all-time-fav list. Surprisingly, I've never played the first two though. Maybe I need to give them a go.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, September 25 2007 13:17 Profile #179
quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

Stillness, you simply ignore so many of the points of my challenge.
Not intentionally. Just tell me what you want me to respond to, because I guess I don’t get it.

quote:
apparently the huge majority of believers who have sought God and to understand Scriptures have had a wrong heart by your definition, considering all the error, conflicting sects, and apostasy of the last two millennia.
Ah, you’re right. I didn’t address this point. There are two kinds of literal death mentioned in the scriptures – the death that spread from Adam as a result of sin and the second death that means destruction from God.

Mat 10:28 And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.

Those not destroyed by God that died in ignorance simply because they were descendants of Adam have the hope of resurrection just like God’s faithful servants do.

John 5:28, 29 28 The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

So I’m not elitist, thinking that I’m the only one God cares for. He cares for people that didn’t even know him as well. If they couldn’t see the truth because of the Church or for whatever reason, they will have an opportunity to do so and make an informed decision.

Re 20:3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.

All the same there have been those throughout the history of Christendom that have been realized that the Church was not following God’s word and have attempted to do something about it. They were silenced, belittled, shunned, killed, and exiled, but they tried their best to understand and follow God’s word.

quote:
All governments do not kill or torture forever their disobedient subjects.
This is a bit of a strawman. God doesn’t torture anyone forever. He also doesn’t kill all disobedient subjects. Those that are unrepentantly disobedient will be killed. Even human governments will at least lock you away to die separated from society under these circumstances. And some of them will kill you. God has every right and is perfectly justified in doing the same.

quote:
You see what you want. You believe what you need to believe, even when it flies in the face of all fact and reason. This is what religion does.
All of them except yours?

I’ll tell you what. Some of your “contradictions” are worthy of investigation, some trifling, and some downright dishonest so much so that I don’t think you’d post it if you looked at the scriptures. Why don’t you look into it yourself and tell me which ones you believe are valid. Then I can discuss with you and not argue against the internet and have you claim these aren’t your points anyway like last time.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, September 25 2007 07:04 Profile #169
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Eh, or you redefine time, which seems to be the real way to escape the problem.
That is of course assuming you have the problem with the eternal. And also making the big fat assumption that the universe we think is expanding is the universe and there is nothing else.

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

Having the benefit of hindsight certain does help , but given the track record of the JW, how would you assess the likelihood that any of the dogma will survive the test of time?
I guess time will tell.

quote:
And your comparison of the world to a supermarket I find baffling. Could you explain why you chose that scenario rather than another? It seems to not fit what Synergy is saying at all, and I just want to stay clear.
Being irritated by unruly kids that have lax parents is fairly universal. Unless I’m misunderstanding Synergy, he seems to be of the opinion that we are all God’s children and he planned for us to be unruly or we are such because of his sloppy parenting. I try to use a lot of illustrations, because I find that we all tend to have a disconnect reasoning when it comes to God and they help bring things down to earth. Maybe they’re not all perfect illustrations. Can’t win ‘em all.

quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

the four gospels disagree on various basic facts
Nope.

quote:
The gospels are significantly different… The Church was divided upon itself from day one.
No it wasn’t. Division came later with the apostasy. You see differences that don’t exist.

2 Pe 3:15, 16 Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given him also wrote YOU, speaking about these things as he does also in all his letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unsteady are twisting, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

The whole congregation viewed Paul’s writings as holy scriptures, wisdom given to him by God. There is no disharmony. The whole Bible, every single book, encourages faith and works. They’re also all clear that bad works are not acceptable.

Heb 10:24-26 And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as YOU behold the day drawing near.
For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left…

quote:
You still don’t clarify the one thing I keep asking you to clarify. Why...why? Aggravating.
Please be patient with me. I think I am answering you, but you’re missing it. Your very valid concern is that the Bible can be difficult to understand and Christ himself couched his message in illustrations that were missed by the majority, right? The reason this is dangerous is that understanding is a matter of life and death. You’re asking how I reconcile this with a loving God that wants to help all mankind, correct? I’ve responded a few times to this.

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:
If you want to understand then you might do actual research or ask someone who knows, instead of getting information from people who hate the Bible and/or don’t have a clue about it themselves.

You would also not be critically searching for disharmony. If you and I are having a conversation and I’m hanging on your every word with the intent of catching a contradiction, I’ll miss your meaning. You also may not care to share your meaning with me since I’m not listening anyway. Which brings us to the most important factor in understanding – God himself. The Bible is clear that his spirit and his representatives are always involved in understanding his message. If you don’t have the right attitude he simply will not bother with making you understand.

Acts 8:29-31 So the spirit said to Philip: “Approach and join yourself to this chariot.” Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me ?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him.

Mat 13:10-15 So the disciples came up and said to him: “Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” In reply he said: “ To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted…For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’
…
The cool thing to me is that he provides help for those that want it before he takes action.

Mat 24:14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

This preaching work is not to confuse, but to warn and draw people to God.
…
God always gives fair warning before he acts. Lot’s wife had warning, as I have repeatedly shown, the Israelites had abundant warning, and the Canaanites had warning, some of them even acted on it, like Rahab and her family and the Gibeonites.
READ THIS--->***So, concisely, the Bible can be understood. You can know what he requires of us. God himself will help you and he will send his servants to help you. But he will not force you if you don’t want it.***[/concise answer]

Notice that the eunuch’s attitude was that he wanted help to understand. Notice Jesus disciples questioned him about his teaching. Notice why the others did not: Their hearts were “unreceptive,” they “heard without response,” they “shut their eyes.” They did not want to listen. They didn’t want the truth.

I think the reason you’re don’t understand my response is because of a difference in worldview. You think everyone will be saved. I think some people are hardheaded and want to do things their way regardless of who they hurt, including themselves.

And let me add, “there will be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15) The “unrighteous” who have not made a name with God, maybe due to ignorance or confusion, will get another shot. (John 5:28, 29; Re 20:12, 13) Such is the extent of God’s love and mercy.

quote:
You are using the God as Father/humans as children paradigm
Not just that, but the God as Creator/King/Legislator/ Judge – humans as subjects paradigm. He is not just Father. This is where I think you don’t get me. When God punishes, disciplines, and kills he is acting in his role as the Head of Universe. You seem to ignore that position as indicated by statements like this

quote:
“If you serve me, I will bless you. If you do not, I will punish you.” These are ever only the words of tyrants.
Those are not the words of tyrants, but of every government. It has to be. Here’s an experiment for you: Pick the most loving, liberal, free government you can think of on this planet. Go there and break a law…maybe go into a bank and demand the manager open the safe and hand over its contents. Afterwards, wait outside the bank and see if you are punished. Or refuse to pay taxes because you won’t “serve” any government and see how it’s IRS views you.

Why do we have laws and punishment for those that disobey them? What do you think the world would be like if there were none?

quote:
The God Whom you claim wrote your Bible did not make a Bible clear enough (or a means of understanding accessible and consensual enough) to prevent these abominations in the earth.
And when those same abominations occur in an Islamic state, a secular state, or one where religion is banned is the Bible to blame there as well, or is it the human doing them?

quote:
Your explanation how God must have warned the Chinamen before the Noah flood or the Canaanites before the Israelites slaugthered them is simply extra-Biblical and speculative.
You asked a theoretical question about a person we don’t even know exists. We don’t know for sure what the population of the earth was or how it was distributed. What we do know, of course assuming the Bible is accurate, is that God always warns before he acts. We also know that Noah was a preacher. So if there were people located in the land we now call China they were warned. We also know that they were very violent, because only Noah distinguished himself from the rest of the world. (Ge 6:9-12) Any Chinese or Americans did not. That’s not speculative.

quote:
Have you seen the war-protesting monk from the 20th century who set himself on fire with gasoline and sat perfectly still while he was consumed?
This is exactly where disregard for human life and pain gets you. That’s part of the danger I was talking about. God’s servants never hurt themselves or take their own lives. The flip side is that other people’s suffering and life is minimized and they become easy to kill too.

quote:
where is your God today? What is God speaking today? Has our understanding progressed today?
He’s alive and active as always directing and guiding his servants and telling people to abandon this world before he ends it and not to look back so that they don’t go down with it. Mankind’s understanding has not progressed as a whole. If it has, I don’t see it reflected in action. The same things are going on today that were going on thousands of years ago. In fact, the scale of badness has increased. God’s people on the other hand have progressed a great deal in understanding.

P.S. While looking over my responses to see where I responded to Synergy I came across this.

“The truth of the matter is you still aren’t going to get it unless someone shows you and you want to be shown. And there is something to be shown. And it’s definitely not the scattered thoughts of patriarchal shepherds over 1600 expressing their spirituality. And you have definitely missed it. You’ve got the puzzle pieces. You even have a few of them stuck together properly, but not enough to see the big picture.”

I thought I was responding to Synergy, but I now see that it was SoT. I remembered being puzzled by “Synergy’s” style and content when I read it. If I’m not mistaken, SoT is Christian and believes in the Bible, so my response doesn’t exactly apply. Sorry.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Monday, September 24 2007 10:34 Profile #161
You all are always derailing spiritual threads with this science mumbo-jumbo!… joking. I find the scientific perspective interesting, although I don’t have much to add, except this: If one tries to escape the universe being linked to an eternal cause by assuming a finite one, this seems to beg the question. At some point you either come to an infinite cause or an infinite progression of finite ones, which is still brings you to eternity.

quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

[F]rom an examination of Jesus use of “this generation” and other uses of that phrase (Ge 7:1) we think a better understanding is that it refers to people who witness the sign of Christ presence but fail to respond favorably.
And from the fact that we're all still here. Let's be honest: there seemed no reason to re-examine 'this generation' in this way, until it became apparent that the world wasn't ending fast enough. And a re-examination based on relating Greek and Hebrew words from opposite ends of the Bible is hardly the most immediate contextualization. This is one of those tight corners.
The world not ending was probably a factor. As far as examining Jesus words in view of Noah’s days, Jesus himself did that, so it is in context. But, as I said before on this thread, no one knows it all. My faith will admit that its interpretations aren’t infallible. We’ve had to make quite a few changes and adjustments to our beliefs and practices as time goes by and the picture becomes clearer.

quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

He Who subjected the creation to futility refuses to take any particular means to make His creation worthy or able to receive the remedy.
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

The cool thing to me is that he provides help for those that want it before he takes action.

Mat 24:14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

This preaching work is not to confuse, but to warn and draw people to God.
quote:
I also again contend that how the religious define "free will" makes a joke of the term. Free will means you are truly free to make any choice you like and not fear that God will string you up you for exercising it, as you choose.
That’s your definition based on the God who doesn’t seem to care much what his creation does. It’s like the parents who let their children run wild at the store disrupting everyone and everything else. Everybody wants to smack them and their parents. On the flip side, people respect firm, but loving parents who’s children are happy and express themselves, but are well-behaved. The children are a joy to be around. In fact, the well-behaved children are happier than the unrestrained.

Man was not created with absolute freedom. There were always laws and there always will be. Your body has law. You don’t have freedom to not eat. If you don’t eat your body warns you. If you don’t obey, what happens? What about breathing? What if you disregard gravity? The same one that made the body is the source of morality. When he wants something done it’s for the best. When people don’t follow they end up dead. And that’s also for the best. Who wants to live with murder, rape, and war forever? I know I don’t.

Ps 37:9-11And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.
But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace.

I respect a God who says, “I love you and I want you to have a good time, but respect and love me and your brothers and sisters while you do it or I will stop you. I won’t allow you to continue hurting me and others.”

De 30:19, 20 I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days, that you may dwell upon the ground that Jehovah swore to your forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to give to them.”

quote:
He is within us to help us remember from whence we came, should we stray too far from our intention for this life in our chosen and necessary forgetfulness in order to have this voluntary, contrived experience of duality to begin with.
Can you give me an example of what ‘straying too far’ is? What if someone “remembers from whence they came” but they don’t care what God or anybody feels?

quote:
It is important also to point out that suffering is not the result of our circumstance. It is the result of our perception of, belief regarding, and attitude towards our circumstance.
An 11 yr old girl is sold into slavery by her father for $14US and forced to provide sexual favors for six men per day. Are you cool with this since any suffering is just her perception? Is God?

I like what you said about the Master, Jesus, rising above pain to do what needed to be done. But he felt it nonetheless.

Luke 22:43, 44 Then an angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. But getting into an agony he continued praying more earnestly; and his sweat became as drops of blood falling to the ground.

John 11:33-35 Jesus, therefore, when he saw her weeping and the Jews that came with her weeping, groaned in the spirit and became troubled; and he said: “Where have YOU laid him?” They said to him: “Lord, come and see.” Jesus gave way to tears.

Jesus said to see him was to see his Father, so if he feels disturbed or saddened by human suffering or wrongdoing, God does as well. There is a great danger in minimizing others pain, I think.

quote:
is it or is it not a fact, that because of their use of the Bible and Christianity, people have created many opposing sects of belief?
No, it’s not a fact. It’s because of not following the Bible that sects arose and wars were started. The Bible actually foretold these things so that we don’t have to be puzzled. What would be puzzling is if Christianity didn’t apostasize.

Mt 13:24, 25 The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left... the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one.

2 Ti 4:3, 4 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories.

2 Pe 2:1 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among YOU. These very ones will quietly bring in destructive sects and will disown even the owner that bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves.

quote:
Christendom sure failed to be the light in the world for many centuries to pull the world out of such a miserable condition, as they continued to hold a monopoly on God’s Word through the Latin Vulgate, with which they instructed the peasants and kings alike in all the ways they were obligated to live. Those who hold the reins of power are highly accountable for the condition of society, would you not agree?
I would. If you’re claiming the Bible as God’s word, yet doing things and making rules in direct opposition to the Bible of course you don’t want people to actually read one. That would undermine your “divine” authority.

quote:
Please enlighten me how I, as a wicked Chinaman in 3-4,000 B.C. am to see a worldwide flood coming, when God only warned Noah in Mesopotamia
God always gives fair warning before he acts. Lot’s wife had warning, as I have repeatedly shown, the Israelites had abundant warning, and the Canaanites had warning, some of them even acted on it, like Rahab and her family and the Gibeonites.

Noah was a “preacher of righteousness.” (2 Pe 2:5) His great-grandfather, Enoch, was as well. Assuming people were in what we now know as China, both of them could have made contact with people there. There could have even been a mass repentance in which God may have altered his course as in the case of Nineveh, Assyria when one prophet’s warning meant salvation for hundreds of thousands.

Jonah 3:4, 10; 4:11 Finally Jonah started to enter into the city the walking distance of one day, and he kept proclaiming and saying: “Only forty days more, and Nineveh will be overthrown…”
And the men of Nineveh began to put faith in God…And the true God got to see their works, that they had turned back from their bad way; and so the true God felt regret over the calamity that he had spoken of causing to them; and he did not cause it…
“And, for my part, ought I not to feel sorry for Nineveh the great city, in which there exist more than one hundred and twenty thousand men who do not at all know the difference between their right hand and their left, besides many domestic animals?”

They had forty days. Noah’s contemporaries apparently had over a century. (Ge 6:3)

quote:
you cannot claim by your theology that we are not all in mortal peril that at any moment wise, mighty, loving Jehovah might do just about anything to us when we fail to be obey Him perfectly, which I daresay anyone you know, yourself included, fails to do daily
Ps 103:10 He has not done to us even according to our sins;
Nor according to our errors has he brought upon us what we deserve.

Prov 28:13 He that is covering over his transgressions will not succeed, but he that is confessing and leaving them will be shown mercy.

1 Jo 1:7 However, if we are walking in the light as he himself is in the light, we do have a sharing with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

This is what I believe. I don’t see any indication in scripture that Jehovah’s anger causes him to lose control and act contrary to this. In fact, he acts far more patiently than what I imagine I ever could. The random, hot-tempered God that you paint is not the one presented in the Bible. I’ll grant he’s not lax. But lax does not mean good or loving. In fact, it indicates the opposite.

quote:
Originally written by upon mars:

Why does the Bible illustrate most violent stories about cannibalistic rituals,horrible deaths,fratricides,incest and rape.
Listen to a global news report and tell me why it presents these things. This is what people do. That being said, the Bible is about much more than these things. It’s just what the anti-Bible folks tend to focus on. The Bible is about the end of all these things.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, September 21 2007 18:26 Profile #131
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Who said responsibilty was shirked? Who said people won't be repaired? Who said people had to ask before they were helped?
I was under the impression that you didn't believe in universal salvation.
I don't.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
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Member # 7723
 written Friday, September 21 2007 17:28 Profile #129
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

You can't just go around creating the universe and then shirking responsibility when it doesn't turn out the way you want it to. Regardless of who you try to ascribe blame to for the defects in humanity, why punish people rather than simply repairing them? Waiting for people to ask for help before helping them seems petty.
Who said responsibilty was shirked? Who said people won't be repaired? Who said people had to ask before they were helped?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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Stillness
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Member # 7723
 written Friday, September 21 2007 16:58 Profile #127
"They are not his children, the defect is their own." - Deuteronomy 32:5
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, September 21 2007 07:43 Profile #125
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

So is this still, or was it really ever, the official JW line?
It was. We thought from the late 1800’s that 1914 would mark the beginning of the reign of the Messiah because of Daniel’s prophecy. Because of Jesus prophecy, from which you quoted, we did think that those who saw the start of the events from 1914 would also see the end of this system. It is possible that some will, as you mentioned, but from an examination of Jesus use of “this generation” and other uses of that phrase (Ge 7:1) we think a better understanding is that it refers to people who witness the sign of Christ presence but fail to respond favorably.

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

The value of a set of directions, after all, is measured by the chance that it will, in practice, successfully direct someone to where they're going. Directions that can be misunderstood aren't perfect.
I agree with the first sentence, but not the second. Any directions can be misunderstood, even clearly stated ones. Much depends on the listener.

quote:
Originally written by Lt. Sullust:

quote:
Anybody (including you) that reads Revelation (or any books in the bible for that matter) and thinks it causes the dangerous and paralyzing sort of fear does not get it. It informs and encourages God's servants so they will have joy and not be in fear. It says as much and I know from experience that it works.
That makes God sound alot like a dictator to me; those who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear...
Huh?

quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

Our God experiences all the wonders of being God through us, the only means of God to do so. Because we have all the nature and quality of God within us, God doesn’t have to babysit us, yet is also intimately intertwined with all our experience and affairs, especially simply taking great pleasure in it.
So the answer to my question about what you think God does is that he experiences the world through our eyes? I guess the implication is that he created everything and just set things on cruise to watch and enjoy. Do you think any of the things that have occurred on the earth displease him or make him sad? If so do you think he is powerless to resolve them? If he is not powerless to resolve them do you think he should do something?

Jo 5:17 But he answered them: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.”

When I said it seems you don’t believe in God, I didn’t mean that literally, because I know you do. I meant that it seems odd for someone who believes in an Almighty God that created this wonderous universe to express doubt that he actually did wonderous things besides that. And the evidence is there, but it is conveniently overlooked or minimized.

quote:
Our understanding of That Book is kind of more exponentially important than any other thing we ever do with all our lifetime, wouldn’t you say? Nothing else compares to this ultimately perilous, gravitous necessity. With the stakes so high, you’d think a God of love would make all things much more clear to all. That religious people are content that God does not, I think says much about the secret heart of the religious toward the lost masses who never really had a chance according to the stacked deck the religious believe in.
I would say learning about God is of the utmost importance.

Jo 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

For that reason I would agree that anyone who understands it has an obligation to teach others. Some people simply don’t want to know though. For those that do, God does make things clear. That doesn’t mean anyone gets it all. As you said, God is deep and there’s always more to uncover. But you can see what it is he requires from us and do it. The cool thing to me is that he provides help for those that want it before he takes action.

Mat 24:14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

This preaching work is not to confuse, but to warn and draw people to God. It’s not to force anyone. That’s what Jesus was talking about. He was saying that those that didn’t want it weren’t going to get it.

Mat 13:10-15 So the disciples came up and said to him: “Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” In reply he said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted…For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’

quote:
The result of 2000 years of people reading and seeking to live by that book is thousands of divided sects of belief, wars, crusades, inquisitions, and the dark ages, rather than The Kingdom of God in earth.
Fallacy: Post Hoc

quote:
I am terrified in my deepest heart of a God Who might [do severe stuff (some made up by Synergy)]…You never know what He might pull on you next for failing to please him properly.
He’s clear on what happens to those who don’t please him properly, so I do know. He’s also clear that he’ll help you if you do want to do right.

1 Co 10:13 No temptation has taken YOU except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let YOU be tempted beyond what YOU can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for YOU to be able to endure it.

No need to be terrified.

quote:
I’d rather just hear your explanation for why I or anyone else does not see the Bible as a coherent, unified, sensible book all in all
I don’t know why, that’s why I won’t assume. For me it was because I liked to do things that Christian law forbids, so I threw out Christian law and made my own. I doubted God, the Bible, and Christians. I was disturbed by the doubt, but it was there nonetheless. I was puzzled by how some people could be so sure of their faith and I prayed to God that if he was real and he cared that he would show me. My answer was not immediate, but it came and I saw what I could not before. So I attribute my inability to understand to making myself a god by setting my own standards of right and wrong. I was able to understand because God had mercy on me.

Rom 10:2, 3 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge; for, because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

I won’t speak of your experience or anyone else’s because I’m not you or them and that would be disrespect in my eyes. But I do know what it’s like to know the Bible and not really understand what it’s about.

quote:
Tell me, is God a big time practical joker of some kind, because two millennia hence is not considered "near" or "nigh" by any human being who lives maybe 100 years at most.
It’s not based on human thinking or perspectives. That’s why humans are told repeatedly to wait, be patient, be ready, try to see things from God’s perspective.

La 3:26 Good it is that one should wait, even silently, for the salvation of Jehovah.

Ha 2:3 For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not tell a lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true. It will not be late.

2 Pe 3:8, 9 However, let this one fact not be escaping your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

-----------------

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Sarrrcasmon:

You don't seem to accept that other people can be happy in their beliefs when they disagree with yours. Your original post seemed to imply that you were happy with your interpretation of the Bible. I only wish you had added that you were unhappy with every other interpretation of the Bible. It would have made this conversation a whole lot simpler.
This discussion is about whether or not people think the Bible is God’s word or not (or something in between). The main argument for it not being what it claims to be is that it is confusing and contradictory. My argument is that there is a way to look at it that does not lead to confusion and contradiction. That says nothing about being content with one’s beliefs or every interpretation of the Bible. I think there are different ways to look at certain things. I’m also not implying that I know it all, or even that I don’t read things that I don’t get.

So, if you’re happy with what you believe, go with that! But just like you can express your beliefs, I can express mine.

By the way, I’m not judging the people over the bridge incident. I’m saying I could understand the families being upset that they didn’t help. I don’t know what I would have done because I don’t know all of the details.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Man or God in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, September 20 2007 05:28 Profile #118
quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

Would you point me to the explorers, settlers, and cartographers who found the angels with flaming swords guarding the Tree of Life somewhere over in Iraq?
If the Bible had said, “And these angels must guard the tree for all eternity so as to be found by men,” then your point would be valid. For somebody who believes in God you sure don’t seem to think he can do anything. When I talk to Muslims we’re both agreed that he exists and does stuff and that the stuff he does is amazing. The universe is testimony to that fact. We disagree on certain things, but that’s not one of them. What does your God do, just sit up in heaven and chill? If you don’t believe in the Bible I understand that, but you seem to not believe in God. If he created trillions of stars and humans to wonder at them, why is it so farfetched that he can flood a planet surrounding one of those stars, make spirit creatures, or author a book?

quote:
Your general, overall response would state that if what I see in Scripture differs from what you see, then you see rightly, and God is not in me to possibly see a thing differently from you. In fact, since the myriad points of Scripture are supposed to be obvious to anyone who reads them in order that they may be saved by the Book, the implication must be that I am simply a moron, and not even that I am spiritually without blessing to rightly divide the Word.
No, my friend. They are not obvious to anyone who reads them. That is not my point. I don’t think you’re a moron.

quote:
However, as I have stated, my measure for truth and reality is not the Bible at all. I think the Bible itself makes that task impossible
And here is why your logic is flawed as I have been saying over and over again. You think I don’t understand the Bible = the Bible is not understandable.

quote:
The Bible, its myths, its translations, its arbitrary constructions, and the religions it ultimately fostered promotes fear and division.
No it doesn’t. Men who misunderstand it do. The Bible teaches overcoming and conquering fear and God’s eternal support for those who love him. There’s no fear in that – at least not the morbid kind. The “fear of God” encouraged in the Bible is a deep respect, like a child would have for his father. This is the fear Lot’s wife should have had for example. She would have said to herself, “I don’t want to do anything to displease Jehovah, since he has done so much good for us and he is the Almighty God.”

You mentioned Revelation, which can be a scary book. When I was in college I had nightmares about it. Why? Because I was being disobedient. But, all around the world, those of my faith are doing an in-depth study of Revelation. Now I’m praying for the things in it to come true. I’m doing my best to align myself with what’s taught in that book and the others. Here is what that means, as stated in the introduction to the visions contained in Revelation.

Re 1:3 Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near.

Anybody (including you) that reads Revelation (or any books in the bible for that matter) and thinks it causes the dangerous and paralyzing sort of fear does not get it. It informs and encourages God's servants so they will have joy and not be in fear. It says as much and I know from experience that it works.

If you’re lost in unfamiliar territory and a local gives you directions, but you try following them and don’t make it to the desired destination there are two possibilities:

1. You got bad directions.
2. You got perfectly good directions, but did not understand them or follow them properly.

You seem willing to only concede that (1) is possible. Out of respect for you I won’t presume to say why. I will leave you with the question to answer yourself. What does it mean if a person is told repeatedly that something makes sense, but when it seems contradictory and nonsensical to them they are not willing to consider that the lack of understanding lies with themselves?

quote:
So, permit me to step down from the exercise we have been engaging
Synergy, you are hereby released and free to ponder existence away from this thread.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00

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