Man or God

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AuthorTopic: Man or God
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #125
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

So is this still, or was it really ever, the official JW line?
It was. We thought from the late 1800’s that 1914 would mark the beginning of the reign of the Messiah because of Daniel’s prophecy. Because of Jesus prophecy, from which you quoted, we did think that those who saw the start of the events from 1914 would also see the end of this system. It is possible that some will, as you mentioned, but from an examination of Jesus use of “this generation” and other uses of that phrase (Ge 7:1) we think a better understanding is that it refers to people who witness the sign of Christ presence but fail to respond favorably.

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

The value of a set of directions, after all, is measured by the chance that it will, in practice, successfully direct someone to where they're going. Directions that can be misunderstood aren't perfect.
I agree with the first sentence, but not the second. Any directions can be misunderstood, even clearly stated ones. Much depends on the listener.

quote:
Originally written by Lt. Sullust:

quote:
Anybody (including you) that reads Revelation (or any books in the bible for that matter) and thinks it causes the dangerous and paralyzing sort of fear does not get it. It informs and encourages God's servants so they will have joy and not be in fear. It says as much and I know from experience that it works.
That makes God sound alot like a dictator to me; those who have nothing to hide have nothing to fear...

Huh?

quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

Our God experiences all the wonders of being God through us, the only means of God to do so. Because we have all the nature and quality of God within us, God doesn’t have to babysit us, yet is also intimately intertwined with all our experience and affairs, especially simply taking great pleasure in it.
So the answer to my question about what you think God does is that he experiences the world through our eyes? I guess the implication is that he created everything and just set things on cruise to watch and enjoy. Do you think any of the things that have occurred on the earth displease him or make him sad? If so do you think he is powerless to resolve them? If he is not powerless to resolve them do you think he should do something?

Jo 5:17 But he answered them: “My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.”

When I said it seems you don’t believe in God, I didn’t mean that literally, because I know you do. I meant that it seems odd for someone who believes in an Almighty God that created this wonderous universe to express doubt that he actually did wonderous things besides that. And the evidence is there, but it is conveniently overlooked or minimized.

quote:
Our understanding of That Book is kind of more exponentially important than any other thing we ever do with all our lifetime, wouldn’t you say? Nothing else compares to this ultimately perilous, gravitous necessity. With the stakes so high, you’d think a God of love would make all things much more clear to all. That religious people are content that God does not, I think says much about the secret heart of the religious toward the lost masses who never really had a chance according to the stacked deck the religious believe in.
I would say learning about God is of the utmost importance.

Jo 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

For that reason I would agree that anyone who understands it has an obligation to teach others. Some people simply don’t want to know though. For those that do, God does make things clear. That doesn’t mean anyone gets it all. As you said, God is deep and there’s always more to uncover. But you can see what it is he requires from us and do it. The cool thing to me is that he provides help for those that want it before he takes action.

Mat 24:14 And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.

This preaching work is not to confuse, but to warn and draw people to God. It’s not to force anyone. That’s what Jesus was talking about. He was saying that those that didn’t want it weren’t going to get it.

Mat 13:10-15 So the disciples came up and said to him: “Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” In reply he said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted…For the heart of this people has grown unreceptive, and with their ears they have heard without response, and they have shut their eyes; that they might never see with their eyes and hear with their ears and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back, and I heal them.’

quote:
The result of 2000 years of people reading and seeking to live by that book is thousands of divided sects of belief, wars, crusades, inquisitions, and the dark ages, rather than The Kingdom of God in earth.
Fallacy: Post Hoc

quote:
I am terrified in my deepest heart of a God Who might [do severe stuff (some made up by Synergy)]…You never know what He might pull on you next for failing to please him properly.
He’s clear on what happens to those who don’t please him properly, so I do know. He’s also clear that he’ll help you if you do want to do right.

1 Co 10:13 No temptation has taken YOU except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let YOU be tempted beyond what YOU can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for YOU to be able to endure it.

No need to be terrified.

quote:
I’d rather just hear your explanation for why I or anyone else does not see the Bible as a coherent, unified, sensible book all in all
I don’t know why, that’s why I won’t assume. For me it was because I liked to do things that Christian law forbids, so I threw out Christian law and made my own. I doubted God, the Bible, and Christians. I was disturbed by the doubt, but it was there nonetheless. I was puzzled by how some people could be so sure of their faith and I prayed to God that if he was real and he cared that he would show me. My answer was not immediate, but it came and I saw what I could not before. So I attribute my inability to understand to making myself a god by setting my own standards of right and wrong. I was able to understand because God had mercy on me.

Rom 10:2, 3 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge; for, because of not knowing the righteousness of God but seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.

I won’t speak of your experience or anyone else’s because I’m not you or them and that would be disrespect in my eyes. But I do know what it’s like to know the Bible and not really understand what it’s about.

quote:
Tell me, is God a big time practical joker of some kind, because two millennia hence is not considered "near" or "nigh" by any human being who lives maybe 100 years at most.
It’s not based on human thinking or perspectives. That’s why humans are told repeatedly to wait, be patient, be ready, try to see things from God’s perspective.

La 3:26 Good it is that one should wait, even silently, for the salvation of Jehovah.

Ha 2:3 For the vision is yet for the appointed time, and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not tell a lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true. It will not be late.

2 Pe 3:8, 9 However, let this one fact not be escaping your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.


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quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Sarrrcasmon:

You don't seem to accept that other people can be happy in their beliefs when they disagree with yours. Your original post seemed to imply that you were happy with your interpretation of the Bible. I only wish you had added that you were unhappy with every other interpretation of the Bible. It would have made this conversation a whole lot simpler.
This discussion is about whether or not people think the Bible is God’s word or not (or something in between). The main argument for it not being what it claims to be is that it is confusing and contradictory. My argument is that there is a way to look at it that does not lead to confusion and contradiction. That says nothing about being content with one’s beliefs or every interpretation of the Bible. I think there are different ways to look at certain things. I’m also not implying that I know it all, or even that I don’t read things that I don’t get.

So, if you’re happy with what you believe, go with that! But just like you can express your beliefs, I can express mine.

By the way, I’m not judging the people over the bridge incident. I’m saying I could understand the families being upset that they didn’t help. I don’t know what I would have done because I don’t know all of the details.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

I agree with the first sentence, but not the second. Any directions can be misunderstood, even clearly stated ones. Much depends on the listener.
Let's not forget who created the listeners, and is therefore responsible for any defects in their understanding...

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #127
"They are not his children, the defect is their own." - Deuteronomy 32:5
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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Profile Homepage #128
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

"They are not his children, the defect is their own." - Deuteronomy 32:5
Saying it doesn't make it so. You can't just go around creating the universe and then shirking responsibility when it doesn't turn out the way you want it to.

[ Friday, September 21, 2007 17:13: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #129
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

You can't just go around creating the universe and then shirking responsibility when it doesn't turn out the way you want it to. Regardless of who you try to ascribe blame to for the defects in humanity, why punish people rather than simply repairing them? Waiting for people to ask for help before helping them seems petty.
Who said responsibilty was shirked? Who said people won't be repaired? Who said people had to ask before they were helped?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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Member # 869
Profile Homepage #130
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Who said responsibilty was shirked? Who said people won't be repaired? Who said people had to ask before they were helped?
I was under the impression that you didn't believe in universal salvation.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #131
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Who said responsibilty was shirked? Who said people won't be repaired? Who said people had to ask before they were helped?
I was under the impression that you didn't believe in universal salvation.

I don't.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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Profile #132
God has hardly shirked responsibility. He has given all man a free will to choose him. He doesn't want mindless puppets. God wants people to choose him because they want to draw close to him, not because they are programmed to. The things that happen that we would classify as bad all happen because God has allowed them to. All things fit into his great plan. People aren't broken like a cheap toy. We all have choices which we make. Our choices are what break us. And with that being said the only breaking that is being done is in our soul. We listen to the voice of the deceiver, the serpent, the prince of all that is evil. He tells us that God has abbondened us. Satan also tells us that he can give us anything we wnat, all we have to do is keep God out of our lives. We live in a day and age where religion is just a small piece of culture. Nothing more than a small stroy that someone threw into a mass of old traditions. Those who do not understand the word are lost and are dambed to hell because they will not receive Christ as their savior, the messiah, the son of man, the son of God, the most high, and the prince of peace. He died on the cross for our sins, OUR sins. He died for us because he loves us. When those who are saved go to heaven they will see the holes in his wrists and the wound in his side. We will see the pain he went through. His wounds are always fresh. He prays for us all the time. He just prays that we will come to see that he is our savior. He wants us to be with him in eternity but we have to choose him. He has given us a free will to choose. If we choose to reject him then we will spend eternity in the pit of fire, where all of our worst nightmares are on display for the pleasure of Satan and his minions. Hell is a place of endless torture where you will be dying of thirst and satan will be drinking a glass of water and you will be chaned to a wall unable to reach the glass right in front of you. Even though you are in the pits of hell God still loves you and he cries for you. He is going to destroy this earth in the end times and make it anew for all of those who are with him in eternity. All those who chose to reject him will burn in hell with the prince of darkness forever. We are the children of God. All he asks of us is htat we love him and follow him. As it says in John 3:19, "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that whoever would believ in him would have eternal life. Accepting Christ is so easy. All you have to do is say, "Jesus, I believe that you died for me on the cross of calvary. I want to be with you in eternity where the streets are made of transparent gold and we can look down on the earth throught the sea of crystal. I want to get to know you throught the word of God, through your word. Please come and dwell in my heart and saveme from the ruler of the earth, the deceiver, the serpent. Come into my heart and save me. In your Holy anem Amen." If any one said that message me or tell your Pastor. Remember God is love. He will never leave you and nothing can pluck you from the hallow of his hand.
Posts: 11 | Registered: Saturday, July 7 2007 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 9245
Profile #133
Job 33:14-30

14 For God does speak—now one way, now another—
though man may not perceive it.

15 In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on men
as they slumber in their beds,

16 he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,

17 to turn man from wrongdoing
and keep him from pride,

18 to preserve his soul from the pit, [a]
his life from perishing by the sword. [b]

19 Or a man may be chastened on a bed of pain
with constant distress in his bones,

20 so that his very being finds food repulsive
and his soul loathes the choicest meal.

21 His flesh wastes away to nothing,
and his bones, once hidden, now stick out.

22 His soul draws near to the pit, [c]
and his life to the messengers of death. [d]

23 "Yet if there is an angel on his side
as a mediator, one out of a thousand,
to tell a man what is right for him,

24 to be gracious to him and say,
'Spare him from going down to the pit [e] ;
I have found a ransom for him'-

25 then his flesh is renewed like a child's;
it is restored as in the days of his youth.

26 He prays to God and finds favor with him,
he sees God's face and shouts for joy;
he is restored by God to his righteous state.

27 Then he comes to men and says,
'I sinned, and perverted what was right,
but I did not get what I deserved.

28 He redeemed my soul from going down to the pit, [f]
and I will live to enjoy the light.'

29 "God does all these things to a man—
twice, even three times-

30 to turn back his soul from the pit, [g]
that the light of life may shine on him.

See God wants us to be with him in eternity. Accept him as your savior and he will always be there fo you. When one person gets saved all of heaven rejoices. The angels sing and play their music and just praise the lord that another has accepted him as their savior. You only have to say the prayer once in your whole life and you're saved. If you want to hear the word from the mouth of a great man of God go to www.ggwo.org
Or come to the services of GGWO. You can find all the information you need at ggwo.org
God Bless!
Posts: 11 | Registered: Saturday, July 7 2007 07:00
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Member # 869
Profile Homepage #134
quote:
Originally written by Nicholiah:

God has hardly shirked responsibility. He has given all man a free will to choose him. He doesn't want mindless puppets. God wants people to choose him because they want to draw close to him, not because they are programmed to. The things that happen that we would classify as bad all happen because God has allowed them to. All things fit into his great plan.
You're contradicting yourself.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #135
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

[F]rom an examination of Jesus use of “this generation” and other uses of that phrase (Ge 7:1) we think a better understanding is that it refers to people who witness the sign of Christ presence but fail to respond favorably.
And from the fact that we're all still here. Let's be honest: there seemed no reason to re-examine 'this generation' in this way, until it became apparent that the world wasn't ending fast enough. And a re-examination based on relating Greek and Hebrew words from opposite ends of the Bible is hardly the most immediate contextualization. This is one of those tight corners.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #136
I wrote:

How do you reconcile this with it being God’s obligation to deliver a word that is of such deadly importance, it really should not risk being misunderstood by anyone? Paul said our carnal reasoning/mind is the enemy of the spiritual mind and cannot know the things of spirit. The Bible would suggest that there is another agency by which its hidden truths might be grasped, not that it ever intended to enlighten the masses. Reconcile that, if you can, and explain to me why Jesus didn’t speak more clearly and directly to the masses...whose eternal fate rested upon their understanding his gospel. How do you reconcile the fiend of a God Who both creates unthinkable fates for all who do not understand and believe, yet makes it so hard to comprehend and see and make sense of what it is they must decide upon? You seem to be suggesting out of both sides of your mouth that it is easy to understand, yet that it is not. Which is it, and how is it exactly? Please summarize your precise belief on this central point (once more) in a few brief sentences at most. Perhaps at some point soon, I will finally be able to relent, thinking I understand you clearly, if not that we understand one another.

Stillness, ll I wanted was for you to address this in concise terms.

Stillness wrote:

Some people simply don’t want to know though. For those that do, God does make things clear. That doesn’t mean anyone gets it all.

So, this appears to possibly be part of the answer I am after from you. If you want to know God's truth, God makes it clear to you? So, by your definition, most people have never wanted to know God's truth, because there has been such an ongoing lack of consensus about numerous things in the Bible, and we have created literally several thousand sects of Christianity. That's a lot of people you dismissed as not genuinely desiring to know God's truth, and therefore evidently not being deemed worthy by God to know His truth. I don't think you or anyone is in the place to judge the hears of many billions of believers of the past or present, and how acceptably they have "wanted" to know God's truth. If this is your argument, I have to say, I don't buy it for a second. It smacks of elitism. "We few have pleased God with our hearts to receive His truth, but the vast majority of all others have not been deemed worthy, and wise God keeps them all in delusion, as they deserve."

You are also saying that it requires the intervention of God to make Scripture understandable to anyone. This means that humanity is in a double-bind. Their clear understanding of the Bible is essential to choosing their eternal fate, but God only gives them clear understanding if they first want it properly, which apparently, is a very unlikely thing to achieve. He Who subjected the creation to futility refuses to take any particular means to make His creation worthy or able to receive the remedy. With all due respect, I say your theology stinks. It makes God a favortist and a loser to "the adversary." It also causes His own creation to thwart His stated desire and intention for His own creation.

It also violates a simple Scripture like Paul saying, "Where sin did abound, grace did much more abound. Much more means God should be going to greater lengths to show humanity grace and help to be able to make the "correct choice" according to eternal destination thelogy, which I also find silly to begin with, but that's another story.

I also again contend that how the religious define "free will" is a mockery of the term. Free will means you are truly free to make any choice you like and not have God string you up you for it. We are from from free agents in this view of man as sinful and in need of punishment/separation from God. This isn't free will at all. It's living under a vindictive tyrant where things are far from free. Ultimately, He has all dissenters lined up and shot.

-S-

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Warrior
Member # 6923
Profile Homepage #137
Rage:Eat the Path

Find the right way down through the maze, to the food, then find the exit. Push the exit button. If the food tastes awful, don't eat it, go back and try another way.

They want the same thing that you do, really, they want a path, just like you. You are in a maze in a maze, but which one counts? Your maze, their maze, my maze. Or are the mazes all the same, defined by the limits of their paths?

Existence is simple: find the food, push the button, hit the treadmill.

But sometimes it gets much harder. Sometimes the food makes you sick, or you can hear nearby feet racing you, urging you on. Sometimes the button only gets you landed right back in the beginning of the maze again, and the food won't satisfy.

There is only one path and that is the path that you take, but you can take more than one path.

Cross over the cell bars, find a new maze, make the maze from it's path, find the cell bars, cross over the bars, find a maze, make the maze from its path, eat the food, eat the path.

IMAGE(http://marathon.bungie.org/story/terms/m3/10401.gif)

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"There are no turtles anywhere" Ponder Stibbons
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Posts: 74 | Registered: Friday, March 17 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #138
Originally written by Stillness:

(W)hat you think God does is that he experiences the world through our eyes?

Think of it more as we are cells of God’s body, which we are called in your Bible, and all we experience He experiences by virtue that we are all a direct part of Him. Not just eyes, then, every faculty and capacity and feeling we have.

I guess the implication is that he created everything and just set things on cruise to watch and enjoy.

I don’t think so. He is intimately involved in the process without forcing the process, violating our free will, or interfering with our choices. He is within us to help us remember from whence we came, should we stray too far from our intention for this life in our chosen and necessary forgetfulness in order to have this voluntary, contrived experience of duality to begin with.

Do you think any of the things that have occurred on the earth displease him or make him sad?

No, because in the ultimate and the absolute, nothing in this state is permanent, and nothing is actually lost. We have chosen to have this experience, and this makes God happy, to see us wisely deciding what we will be and do, sharing His mind, deciding upon a grand undertaking together and purposefully, including all the experience of wretchedness and “evil.” The grandness and glory of love is not known except where the qualities of love are deeply required to be expressed.

It is important also to point out that suffering is not the result of our circumstance. It is the result of our perception of, belief regarding, and attitude towards our circumstance. Masters and saints like Jesus and many others since (and probably before) have demonstrated even the transcendence of pain when they are able to discipline their thinking and their awareness to shift their perception of their experience. Jesus was said to have said, “Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do,” as he hung upon the cross, all the while having the power to correct their knowing or to remove himself from the cross.

If so do you think he is powerless to resolve them?

There is nothing to resolve. We are quite ably and safely having the experience we have all chosen together to have as the family of God, desiring to experience Itself. I know this sounds too good to be true for most, but don’t you really think God would be too good to be true? We do have free will. We are one with God, and never have not been. This realm and our temporary forgetfullness of our heritage during this life is an illusion God constructed in order for this experience to be possible.

If he is not powerless to resolve them do you think he should do something?

Nope. There is nothing else that needs be done that He is not already doing and that we are not already doing as part of Him. There is no ultimate peril or threat in the system...at all.

I would say learning about God is of the utmost importance.

Most have a theology that we are here to learn and perfect ourselves in some way, get something right, be purified, endure karmic law and struggle to overcome, etc. I have for most of my life as well. I offer a different perspective now, again from Conversations With God, beginning with the author inquiring, then God responding.

-----------------

”’There are those who say that life is a school, that we are here to learn specific lessons, that once we “graduate” we can go on to larger pursuits, no longer shackled by the body. Is this correct?’

‘It is another part of your mythology, based on human experience.’

‘Life is not a school?’

‘No.’

‘We are not here to learn lessons?’

‘No.’

‘Then why are we here?’

‘To remember, and re-create, Who You Are.’

I have told you, over and over again. You do not believe Me. Yet that is well as it should be. For truly, if you do not create yourself as Who You Are, that you cannot be.’


‘Okay, you’ve lost me. Let’s go back to this school bit. I’ve heard teacher after teacher tell us that life is a school. I’m frankly shocked to hear you deny that.’

‘School is a place you go if there is something you do not know that you want to know. It is not a place you go if you already know a thing and simply want to experience your knowingness.

Life (as you call it) is an opportunity for you to know experientially what you already know conceptually. You need learn nothing to do this. You need merely remember what you already know, and act on it.


‘I’m not sure I understand.’

‘Let’s start here. The soul—your soul—knows all there is to know all the time. There’s nothing hidden to it, nothing unknown. Yet knowing is not enough. The soul seeks to experience.

You can know yourself to be generous, but unless you do something which displays generosity, you have nothing but a concept. You can know yourself to be kind, but unless you do someone a kindness, you have nothing but an idea about yourself.

It is your soul’s only desire to turn its grandest concept about itself into its greatest experience. Until concept becomes experience, all there is is speculation. I have been speculating about Myself a long time. Longer than you and I could collectively remember. Longer than the age of the universe times the age of the universe. You see, then, how young is—how new is—My experience of Myself!’”


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I said:

The result of 2000 years of people reading and seeking to live by that book is thousands of divided sects of belief, wars, crusades, inquisitions, and the dark ages, rather than The Kingdom of God in earth.

Stillness countered with:

Fallacy: Post Hoc

Interesting response. Tell me, is it or is it not a fact, that because of their use of the Bible and Christianity, people have created many opposing sects of belief? Is it not true that religious wars have been fought in the name of God, starting with Constantine’s war in which he claims to have seen a cross in the sky with the words, “In this sign conquer?” Is it not true that the crusades were instituted by men based upon beliefs about what God said in the Bible and the so-called Holy Land? Is it not the case that it was the Church of God which created the Spanish Inquisition to torture people into a favorable eternity, based upon their interpretation of Scripture and its talk of fire and purification, and other passages? You may argue that the long, dreary period of the Dark Ages was not caused by Christendom, and I won’t belabor that point, but I will argue that Christendom sure failed to be the light in the world for many centuries to pull the world out of such a miserable condition, as they continued to hold a monopoly on God’s Word through the Latin Vulgate, with which they instructed the peasants and kings alike in all the ways they were obligated to live. Those who hold the reins of power are highly accountable for the condition of society, would you not agree? Who held more actual power over society in Europe during the Dark Ages than the Church? Tell me, please if not belief based upon the Bible, then what? Sometimes your responses truly startle me.

I wrote:

I am terrified in my deepest heart of a God Who might [do severe stuff (some made up by Synergy)]…

I didn’t make any of those possible punishments up. Major religions of the world based upon the Bible have been teaching such fates for the wicked for millennia.

You never know what He might pull on you next for failing to please him properly.

He’s clear on what happens to those who don’t please him properly, so I do know. He’s also clear that he’ll help you if you do want to do right.

He’s clear? Please enlighten me how I, as a wicked Chinaman in 3-4,000 B.C. am to see a worldwide flood coming, when God only warned Noah in Mesopotamia, that I will be turned into a pillar of salt for turning my head, that my children will be mauled by animals for doing the foolish things children do, that I may be slaughtered and cut with knives and sawed with saws by “Godly” Israelites who also rape and take my wife and kill my children at the command of Jehovah, because I was not the Godly “favored” nation of enlightenment in my day? Would a Hittite tell you that God was ever clear to them before they were savagely cut down and blotted from their land? I seriously doubt they had a clue what was coming or why. Vast portions of humanity had no knowing of God or their “choices,” yet were cut down for their wickedness. And the religious, beyond all credibility, insist this is the justice of a loving Father of all.

And again, oddly, Jehovah seems to have bafflingly ceased all such instrumental bloodiness in His Name in the NT, but someone who did what you claim He did in the OT, and never changes, I cannot trust or guess ahead of time how pissed off and vindictive He is going to be if I don’t wholly obey Him at every moment, which is impossible, according to Bible doctrine, for all are sinners and fall short. Sorry, but you cannot claim by your theology that we are not all in mortal peril that at any moment wise, mighty, loving Jehovah might do just about anything to us when we fail to be obey Him perfectly, which I daresay anyone you know, yourself included, fails to do daily.

I dispute your claim that you know what unknowable Jehovah, whose ways and thoughts are so much beyond your own, is going to do next based on His “righteous judgements,” which so many historically, according to the Bible, clearly never saw coming, but evidently fully deserved.

I now point to the major irony of Judaeo-Christianity and its offshoot religions. It gives us the myth of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to explain what happened to mankind to enter this condition we are now experiencing. Based upon their own reckoning of good and evil, this enlightened collective patronizingly points to the ungodly in the world deserving of harsh judgements. But the Church itself is the single greatest agent obsessing over, defining, and exacting onerous requirement based upon its own estimation of good and evil, and puts it into the mouth of God on its own accord. The most “Godly” people on the planet are the ones feasting upon the symbolic tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Indeed, who else has more knowledge and concern over what is said to be good and evil?

Jesus is claimed to have said, “satan is that spirit that operates in the sons of disobedience.” Know who those were? The sons of disobedience was a very sore and identifiable term the Jews knew well. It refers to the sons of Israel after Moses and the Law who were disobedient to the Law they were given. Jesus said that “satan” is a spirit, an attitude, essentially, that was operating in the religious Pharisees he was addressing—and chastening, if not mocking—by saying so. Satan is the very spiritual force in operation in the religious-minded and self-righteous, made righteous by their estimation as God what is good and evil. Satan afflicts the minds of the religious. The irony exists, within Scripture, or without. The religious are their own worst enemy, and sadly, the enemy of those who seek to be re-minded of God, and their Godly heritage in order to fulfill what their soul desires in this life.

-S-

[ Saturday, September 22, 2007 10:19: Message edited by: Synergy ]

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5389
Profile #139
At best the bibles (old test., new, quran et al) are written by men who had heard something and then went and misinterpreted it.

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Reports of my demise are extremely accurate. And I AM the clone
Posts: 102 | Registered: Wednesday, January 12 2005 08:00
Canned
Member # 7704
Profile #140
Why does the Bible illustrate most violent stories about cannibalistic rituals,horrible deaths,fratricides,incest and rape.
It's a weird and horrible book if that's christianity then i understand why Christians can be very intolerant and violent after being brought up with this.

But the bible is just a book calling for hope and deliverance. We don't need books about violence and ill treating do we? Or we long for it because we are in denial of such events happening now caused by people of the same country,religion and understanding: i arks you why was this book was written and still published?
Do men seek in vain deliverance of this foul and violent world?
What is the bible a contract between different realities?
I doubt that god wants us to save our selves after all there are more significant things in this world than this poor broken shard is there? We are just insignificant life forms in this world so why would a immense father figure bother to cherish us?

Oh so we are in need. Need for love and affection are we?
So we need a father? Like a SUN needs his father? We live in world with three major astral entities do we?

MARY a virgin soon to become a mother. Diane a virgin goddess of the moon.
Tell me When the sun arises it eclipses the stars does it so do venus the star of guiding. Isn't it like a father being eclipsed by his son? Venus and the moon are no more to be seen because of the birth OF THE SON? or SUN? weird is it?
At night fall when the sun dies Venus,the father osiris, meets the mother of the future SON. Or is it a new scene of the son becoming a father?
The son of the light eclipsed by the sun.
Looks like the Christians worship the Son the "new hope" of generation instead of the Father the procreator.
Hope is always symbolically shown as light.
Oedipus complex in religion?
The moon being with the sun at dawn of life.

WE ARE poor small Vampires searching for dad.
Pitiful planet.
The only thing here is to wait isn't there? To pass through this child playground of initiation and rites of passage.
It 's all about mental food, well at least it make the mad people quite for a small amount of time.

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You can jump off a bridge, fire a gun in your mouth, drink poison,or going in to the tiger's pit but you will still end up dead it's a mater of time and how .
Posts: 312 | Registered: Sunday, November 26 2006 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #141
upon mars, when we say "Oh God, it's you again", we don't mean that we think you're God.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #142
Upon Mars may be destined to be a mighty poet-philosopher one day.

-S-

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Warrior
Member # 5389
Profile #143
God is a psychopath.

That or all the really religious people want to let out their inner psychopath.

Think about this: way back in the 300s or 400s, the Council of Nicaea (or Nicea) got together and decided that the Bible would have certain books, and would not have other books. They did this in order to propagate their own version of Christianity and to suppress as many other versions as they could.

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Reports of my demise are extremely accurate. And I AM the clone
Posts: 102 | Registered: Wednesday, January 12 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 10578
Profile Homepage #144
quote:
Originally written by Jame2:

Think about this: way back in the 300s or 400s, the Council of Nicaea (or Nicea) got together and decided that the Bible would have certain books, and would not have other books. They did this in order to propagate their own version of Christianity and to suppress as many other versions as they could.
I beg to differ on that point. The Council of Nicaea was simply meant to give an official statement of which books (almost) everyone already knew were written by real apostles. They did this to stand against people - some present, some future - that would try to add other teachings to the Bible to undermine it. Example: Islam and Mormonism both claim inspiration by an "angel." Galatians 1:8 states: "But even if we, or and angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

Additionally, if you have ever looked at those "other books" of the Bible, I think you would realize just how silly some of the fake stuff is. And by the way, most of those "other books" were never accepted as scriptural by ANYONE.

I realize that you will probably laugh at what I'm saying, but that's OK. If you choose not to believe, nobody's forcing you to. God gives us all a free choice, and I can't change your mind by myself. Only He can change hearts. I will pray for you though, and those like you.

No hard feelings. :)

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"I intend to find out who has the most treasure, kill them, take it, and repeat the process."
Posts: 432 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2007 07:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #145
[QUOTE]Originally written by Khyryk's Brother:
The Council of Nicaea was simply meant to give an official statement of which books (almost) everyone already knew were written by real apostles.

How exactly did anyone know this, and how do you know that they knew? The consensus is that most of the writings of the NT except, possibly, for Paul's letters, were written by people whose names are not on the book.

Additionally, if you have ever looked at those "other books" of the Bible, I think you would realize just how silly some of the fake stuff is.

As opposed to just how silly some of the fake stuff is in the books that were retained?

most of those "other books" were never accepted as scriptural by ANYONE.

Again, I'd sure like to know how you think you know that. Considering my opinion of majority opinion, I'd be especially interested to see what the chosen agents of an institutionalized Church-state deemed too dangerous or unGodly or frivolous to make it into the "official canon."

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 9245
Profile #146
Psa 14:1
The FOOL has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

James 4:8
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.
Posts: 11 | Registered: Saturday, July 7 2007 07:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #147
This thread is to discuss God and man and the Bible...not a place to proseletyze and regurgitate scriptures to remind everyone how wicked and foolish they are according to David or James. If you're going to inflict Scripture upon us, please have something intelligent and pertinent to the discussion to say for yourself.

-S-

[ Sunday, September 23, 2007 15:21: Message edited by: Synergy ]

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #148
quote:
Originally written by Nicholiah:

Psa 14:1
The FOOL has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good.

No atheist who does good, eh? What about Dr. Fred Hollows, who was not only an atheist but a card-carrying Communist Party member, but who established a charitable foundation that's saved the eyesight of over a million people worldwide?

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 10578
Profile Homepage #149
quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

This thread is to discuss God and man and the Bible...not a place to proseletyze and regurgitate scriptures to remind everyone how wicked and foolish they are according to David or James. If you're going to inflict Scripture upon us, please have something intelligent and pertinent to the discussion to say for yourself.

-S-

I must admit our friend Synergy has a point, Nicholiah. Please present a case and then use Scripture to support it.

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"I intend to find out who has the most treasure, kill them, take it, and repeat the process."
Posts: 432 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2007 07:00

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