Man or God

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AuthorTopic: Man or God
Infiltrator
Member # 4248
Profile #25
My view is simple: bible is a message about God, but its from men to other men, not from God to men. Some writers of the bible were certainly enlightened bunch, with grand ideas of the world, but that only lifts bible's value to the level of other philosophical and religious texts. It contains some truth, yes, but does it hold more of it than, say, the Quran or Veda scriptures? "No" is my answer.

[ Thursday, August 30, 2007 04:42: Message edited by: Frozen Feet ]

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Life is a neverending carneval where everyone has multiple costumes. I just hope mine are pleasing to the eye.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #26
Jumpin’ and Leftover, I understand the sentiment, but I guarantee I will not just sit and rant about the Bible and spirituality by myself. Even if I am behind all of the “derailing” (which is so not true), I certainly am not alone in my interest in the Bible and things spiritual. I was actually disappointed with the Europa thread, but you can’t make people talk or not talk about a topic. Think about it this way, maybe if people can focus their spiritualness here, other threads will be safe.

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The arguments about the Bible passing through human hands is only valid if God doesn’t exist or if he didn’t mean the Bible to be given to humans. If he exists and wanted the Bible to be, then he certainly can protect it.

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quote:
Originally written by Leftistking:

I see there is a teacup orbitting around the sun between Earth and Mars. However, I also say that no matter how hard you look, you will not be able to detect it. Also, I say that I learned of this from an ancient book written by a supposed circus clown who lived thousands of years ago, and that no one has heard of. Do you believe me?
Why can’t we detect the teacup, and more importantly why should we care?
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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

How do you rule out the possibility that it was written by Satan to deceive humanity?
The same way I rule out a warning of a robbery coming from the thief trying to break in. The Bible exposes Satan and his tactics.

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quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

Why? Why do you think you believe it? Would the average person have come to the same conclusion if they weren't raised to believe it without question?
I don’t know what qualifies as an “average person,” but I know a lot of people that weren’t raised as a Christian that now believe the Bible. They believe because of a detailed thorough examination of the Scriptures has convinced them that the answers to the most important questions are to be found there. They believe because they see that the things they read actually work.

Many have been on a path very similar to what how you describe your own. One of my good buddies taught himself Hebrew and Koine Greek so he could figure things out for himself. Just accepting what someone else believes is mental laziness, but if you do a careful and systematic search and find a claim to make sense, accepting and acting on it is not lazy. It is the only wise course. It doesn’t have anything to do with needing to believe.

quote:
early transcribers both in Hebrew text and in other ancient languages both managed to mistransliterate years by a factor of ten. In the Hebrew texts, we wound up with Methusaleh living to 969 years old as a result.
Then Methusaleh’s father, Enoch, was 6 years old when he was born? This is a bit of a problem. A bigger problem is resolving the gradual decrease in age after the flood. Look at Genesis 11:10. The ages are 600 yrs for Shem, 438 for his son, 433, 464, 239, 239, 230, 148, 205. Then Abraham-175; Isaac-180; Jacob-147; Joseph-110. So where do the errors stop? It’s easy to say decimal places were moved or the years were months until you actually look at the accounts. For me, none of these ages is not problematic, when Adam and Eve were not supposed to die at all. If you don’t believe that people can live much longer than they do know and things have to work the way they do today, then I can understand.

quote:
2 Samuel 6:23 says "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death"

2 Samuel 21:8 says "But the king took...the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul"

Often the supposed discrepancies are a matter of perspective. In this case the traditional view is that Michal had no children of her own, but adopted her sister, Merab’s, sons and raised them as her own.

quote:
I am seriously interested in seeing how these are inerrant and inerrantly preserved by the God Who saw it important to give us a perfect book to live by and trust with our lives:

2 Kings 8:26 says "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."

2 Chronicles 22:2 says "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."

God preserving it doesn’t require that humans not make mistakes. It requires that we are able to sort them out. In this instance 2 Chron. 22:2 in the New World Translation reads “Twenty-two” and in the footnote refers to a Septuagint and another manuscript from the fifth century as sources. The case of David’s conflict with Hadadezer is similar.

quote:
Job:

"I will make mention of Rahab"
Rahab is a sea-demon or dragon from ancient Jewish folklore. 87:4

"Thou hast broken Rahab [the sea monster] in pieces." 89:10

This is from the Psalms, not Job. Your claims about these animals overlooks two important points:

1) Myths about animals does not mean that they don’t exist. I recently read about the sun spider that rips open camel bellies, hunts down men and kills them in their sleep, has speed like a cheetah, and is extremely large and viscious. There is actually a large and fast arachnid called the sun spider, but the myth surrounding it is overblown.
2) Just because an animal doesn’t exist now doesn’t mean it didn’t exist in the past.

Your critical eye also seems to be forcing literalism on the scriptures that you wouldn’t place on any other speech or writing. If you read that the president was as dumb as a box of rocks, what would you conclude? The writer is lying or using hyperbole?

quote:

When Jesus was crucified, there was three hours of complete darkness "over all the earth." It is strange that there is no record of this extraordinary event outside of the gospels. 23:44-45

So you conclude it did not happen because you don’t know of any other record? Is that logical? Also, it would be dark already in other places on the globe. But,most likely “earth” here means “land” as Matthew and Mark’s accounts indicate. So this would be localized darkness as in the case of the ninth plague on Egypt when the Israelites were not affected. Ex 10:21-23
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 32
Profile #27
quote:
The same way I rule out a warning of a robbery coming from the thief trying to break in. The Bible exposes Satan and his tactics.
Not necessarily, this could just be deception. It would certainly advantageous to have the enemy think they know your true strategy...

[ Thursday, August 30, 2007 07:28: Message edited by: Lt. Sullust ]

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Lt. Sullust
Quaere verum
Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #28
quote:
Originally written by Lt. Sullust:

quote:
The same way I rule out a warning of a robbery coming from the thief trying to break in. The Bible exposes Satan and his tactics.
Not necessarily, this could just be deception. It would certainly advantageous to have the enemy think they know your true strategy...

And what would Satan's true strategy be? The Bible says he wants us alienated from God, servants of himself, and/or dead and he does everything he can towards those ends.

Yes, I believe the miracles in the bible occured. I'm only recalling two sea partings atm though - one under Moses and one under joshua. I'm drawing a blank on the other two you mention.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 32
Profile #29
Well the Bible seems to attract people. And if Satan did write it then he seems to have acheived his goal...

EDIT: Apparently my count was a bit too low... Parting Waters ...

[ Thursday, August 30, 2007 08:03: Message edited by: Lt. Sullust ]

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Lt. Sullust
Quaere verum
Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 4248
Profile #30
In my view, if there is a satan, making people to believe in one, arbitrary writing as the absolute truth would be just his way of working. Why? Well, I see God as the whole formed of everything, and we can't really claim we know him until we have gathered all part-truths and assembled them into one. I define hell as "absence from God", which in this case means missing the big picture, curling to a ball and clinging to your own little part-truth even when there's a whole world waiting outside. There isn't any inherently evil about it (I just can't think of God or satan as "good" or "evil" in any sense I can grasp), but in the long run it may turn hazardous.

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Life is a neverending carneval where everyone has multiple costumes. I just hope mine are pleasing to the eye.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #31
quote:
Originally written by Lt. Sullust:

EDIT: Apparently my count was a bit too low... Parting Waters ...
Yes, I forgot about Elijah and Elisha.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #32
quote:
Originally written by StillnessI don’t know what qualifies as an “average person,” but I know a lot of people that weren’t raised as a Christian that now believe the Bible. They believe because of a detailed thorough examination of the Scriptures has convinced them that the answers to the most important questions are to be found there. They believe because they see that the things they read actually work.

Many have been on a path very similar to what how you describe your own. One of my good buddies taught himself Hebrew and Koine Greek so he could figure things out for himself. Just accepting what someone else believes is mental laziness, but if you do a careful and systematic search and find a claim to make sense, accepting and acting on it is not lazy. It is the only wise course. It doesn’t have anything to do with needing to believe.

I know a few people who have found religion, although not fundamentalism, but I know a few more people who have lost their faith. The average person seems to act on inertia, judging by the fact that most people maintain the religion they're born into, and there are a few outliers who switch.

—Alorael, who thinks the point about Satan is a philosophical brain teaser, although most theologians probably stay away. Since the only source of information on Satan is the Bible, there's no way to know whether God wrote it or Satan did, or even if God wrote it and Satan corrupted it by tempting a few key scribes. Maybe Satan is the good guy after all and God has deceived everyone with the Bible.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #33
quote:
Originally written by John Q. Random:

...
I know a few people who have found religion, although not fundamentalism, but I know a few more people who have lost their faith. The average person seems to act on inertia, judging by the fact that most people maintain the religion they're born into, and there are a few outliers who switch.
...

I've actually had the opposite experience in college: A large proportion of the people going to Orthodox servicies were rased secular, Reform, or Conservative. And many Orthodox kids became a lot less religious in college. It might be that college is the time of change, so I saw a disproportionate number of people changing, but it seems to me that people are more likely to resist things they've been taught as children and at least try the opposite way of life for themselves. It could be that after college all of these people went back to their original belief systems, but I don't think so.

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Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #34
quote:
Originally written by John Q. Random:

[QUOTE]The average person seems to act on inertia, judging by the fact that most people maintain the religion they're born into, and there are a few outliers who switch.
I think that's tue to some degree. I meet a lot of people that call themselves by their parents religion and believe it somewhat, but don't really practice. I find that to be the most common position - at least in southeastern Micigan.

quote:
Since the only source of information on Satan is the Bible, there's no way to know whether God wrote it or Satan did, or even if God wrote it and Satan corrupted it by tempting a few key scribes. Maybe Satan is the good guy after all and God has deceived everyone with the Bible.
This is really a very good point you all are raising. This is one way you would need to reason to find out the Bible's source. That's why I was asking what Satan's goal might be if it is not truly as revealed in the Bible. These trifles about scribal errors are so boring and nitpicky.

There's Christian proverb that you know a tree by the fruit it bears. Good and rotten trees produce fruit accordingly. So if the Bible was from an wicked source it would instruct one to do wicked deeds. Does it? My examination tells me no. On the contrary it elevates thinking and morality.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #35
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

So if the Bible was from an wicked source it would instruct one to do wicked deeds. Does it? My examination tells me no. On the contrary it elevates thinking and morality.
The Bible is not one book. It all depends which book and which portion you choose to focus on. The God of the Bible condones slaughter, torture, use, misuse and discarding of women, cutting them to death with saws and knives, burning with fire, ad nauseum. The God of the Old Testament has almost nothing to do with the God of the new and in fact the OT came within a hairbreadth of being discarded from the canon of Christianity at an early point.

I am especially impressed with the loving and merciful Jehovah who had 42 children mauled and killed for making fun of Elijah's bald head. If it was your child who Jehovah slaughtered for this grave offense of doing the silly things children do, I bet you'd have a different opinion of "Him. and his lovingkindness. It is not hard to see how Christendom has justified its witch burnings, Jew persecutions, tortures, and crusades. Jehovah was a bloodthirsty, capricious favortist, quite at odds with God of the NT. That Christians have little trouble marrying the two shizophrenic characters and calling both loving, merciful, and just to me says something about credibility and power of critical thinking in choosing a deity to worship.

"It is a fact that in the Bible, words having to do with killing significantly outnumber words having to do with love.

GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)

GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.

GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).

GE 38:9 "... whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked ..., so the Lord put him to death."

EX 2:12 Moses murders an Egyptian.

EX 7:1, 14, 9:14-16, 10:1-2, 11:7 The purpose of the devastation that God brings to the Egyptians is as follows:
to show that he is Lord;
to show that there is none like him in all the earth;
to show his great power;
to cause his name to be declared throughout the earth;
to give the Israelites something to talk about with their children;
to show that he makes a distinction between Israel and Egypt.

EX 9:22-25 A plague of hail from the Lord strikes down everything in the fields of Egypt both man and beast except in Goshen where the Israelites reside.

EX 12:29 The Lord kills all the first-born in the land of Egypt.

EX 17:13 With the Lord's approval, Joshua mows down Amalek and his people.

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.

EX 32:27 "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor.

EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.

LE 26:7-8 The Lord promises the Israelites that, if they are obedient, their enemies will "fall before your sword."

LE 26:22 "I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children."

LE 26:29, DT 28:53, JE 19:9, EZ 5:8-10 As a punishment, the Lord will cause people to eat the flesh of their own sons and daughters and fathers and friends.

LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)

NU 11:33 The Lord smites the people with a great plague.

NU 12:1-10 God makes Miriam a leper for seven days because she and Aaron had spoken against Moses.

NU 15:32-36 A Sabbath breaker (who had gathered sticks for a fire) is stoned to death at the Lord's command.

NU 16:27-33 The Lord causes the earth to open and swallow up the men and their households (including wives and children) because the men had been rebellious.

NU 16:35 A fire from the Lord consumes 250 men.

NU 16:49 A plague from the Lord kills 14,700 people.

NU 21:3 The Israelites utterly destroy the Canaanites.

NU 21:6 Fiery serpents, sent by the Lord, kill many Israelites.

NU 21:35 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay Og "... and his sons and all his people, until there was not one survivor left ...."

NU 25:4 (KJV) "And the Lord said unto Moses, take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun ...."

NU 25:8 "He went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly."

NU 25:9 24,000 people die in a plague from the Lord.

NU 31:9 The Israelites capture Midianite women and children.

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

NU 31:31-40 32,000 virgins are taken by the Israelites as booty. Thirty-two are set aside (to be sacrificed?) as a tribute for the Lord.

DT 2:33-34 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Sihon.

DT 3:6 The Israelites utterly destroy the men, women, and children of Og.

DT 7:2 The Lord commands the Israelites to "utterly destroy" and shown "no mercy" to those whom he gives them for defeat.

DT 20:13-14 "When the Lord delivers it into your hand, put to the sword all the males .... As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves."

DT 20:16 "In the cities of the nations the Lord is giving you as an inheritance, do not leave alive anything that breathes."

DT 21:10-13 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites are allowed to take "beautiful women" from the enemy camp to be their captive wives. If, after sexual relations, the husband has "no delight" in his wife, he can simply let her go.

DT 28:53 "You will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you."

JS 1:1-9, 18 Joshua receives the Lord's blessing for all the bloody endeavors to follow.

JS 6:21-27 With the Lord's approval, Joshua destroys the city of Jericho men, women, and children with the edge of the sword.

JS 7:19-26 Achan, his children and his cattle are stoned to death because Achan had taken a taboo thing.

JS 8:22-25 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly smites the people of Ai, killing 12,000 men and women, so that there were none who escaped.

JS 10:10-27 With the help of the Lord, Joshua utterly destroys the Gibeonites.

JS 10:28 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Makkedah.

JS 10:30 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Libnahites.

JS 10:32-33 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the people of Lachish.

JS 10:34-35 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Eglonites.

JS 10:36-37 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Hebronites.

JS 10:38-39 With the Lord's approval, Joshua utterly destroys the Debirites.

JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

JS 11:6 The Lord orders horses to be hamstrung. (Exceedingly cruel.)

JS 11:8-15 "And the lord gave them into the hand of Israel, ...utterly destroying them; there was none left that breathed ...."

JS 11:20 "For it was the Lord's doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be utterly destroyed, and should receive no mercy but be exterminated, as the Lord commanded Moses."

JS 11:21-23 Joshua utterly destroys the Anakim.

JG 1:4 With the Lord's support, Judah defeats 10,000 Canaanites at Bezek.

JG 1:6 With the Lord's approval, Judah pursues Adoni-bezek, catches him, and cuts off his thumbs and big toes.

JG 1:8 With the Lord's approval, Judah smites Jerusalem.

JG 1:17 With the Lord's approval, Judah and Simeon utterly destroy the Canaanites who inhabited Zephath.

JG 3:29 The Israelites kill about 10,000 Moabites.

JG 3:31 (A restatement.) Shamgar killed 600 Philistines with an oxgoad.

JG 4:21 Jael takes a tent stake and hammers it through the head of Sisera, fastening it to the ground.

JG 7:19-25 The Gideons defeat the Midianites, slay their princes, cut off their heads, and bring the heads back to Gideon.

JG 8:15-21 The Gideons slaughter the men of Penuel.

JG 9:5 Abimalech murders his brothers.

JG 9:45 Abimalech and his men kill all the people in the city.

JG 9:53-54 "A woman dropped a stone on his head and cracked his skull. Hurriedly he called to his armor-bearer, 'Draw your sword and kill me, so that they can't say a woman killed me.' So his servant ran him through, and he died."

JG 11:29-39 Jepthah sacrifices his beloved daughter, his only child, according to a vow he has made with the Lord.

JG 14:19 The Spirit of the Lord comes upon a man and causes him to slay thirty men.

JG 15:15 Samson slays 1000 men with the jawbone of an ass.

JG 16:21 The Philistines gouge out Samson's eyes.

JG 16:27-30 Samson, with the help of the Lord, pulls down the pillars of the Philistine house and causes his own death and that of 3000 other men and women.

JG 18:27 The Danites slay the quiet and unsuspecting people of Laish.

JG 19:22-29 A group of sexual depraved men beat on the door of an old man's house demanding that he turn over to them a male house guest. Instead, the old man offers his virgin daughter and his guest's concubine (or wife): "Behold, here are my virgin daughter and his concubine; let me bring them out now. Ravish them and do with them what seems good to you; but against this man do not do so vile a thing." The man's concubine is ravished and dies. The man then cuts her body into twelve pieces and sends one piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel.

JG 20:43-48 The Israelites smite 25,000+ "men of valor" from amongst the Benjamites, "men and beasts and all that they found," and set their towns on fire.

JG 21:10-12 "... Go and smite the inhabitants of Jabesh-gilead with the edge of the sword and; also the women and little ones.... every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall utterly destroy." They do so and find four hundred young virgins whom they bring back for their own use.

1SA 4:10 The Philistines slay 30,000 Israelite foot soldiers.

1SA 5:6-9 The Lord afflicts the Philistines with tumors in their "secret parts," presumably for having stolen the Ark.

1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)

1SA 7:7-11 Samuel and his men smite the Philistines.

1SA 11:11 With the Lord's blessing, Saul and his men cut down the Ammonites.

1SA 14:31 Jonathan and his men strike down the Philistines.

1SA 14:48 Saul smites the Amalekites.

1SA 15:3, 7-8 "This is what the Lord says: Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass ....' And Saul ... utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."

1SA 15:33 "Samuel hewed Agag in pieces before the Lord ...."

1SA 18:7 The women sing as they make merry: "Saul has slain his thousands and David his ten thousands."

1SA 18:27 David murders 200 Philistines, then cuts off their foreskins.

1SA 30:17 David smites the Amalekites.

2SA 2:23 Abner kills Asahel.

2SA 3:30 Joab and Abishai kill Abner.

2SA 4:7-8 Rechan and Baanah kill Ish-bosheth, behead him, and take his head to David.

2SA 4:12 David has Rechan and Baanah killed, their hands and feet cut off, and their bodies hanged by the pool at Hebron.

2SA 5:25 "And David did as the Lord commanded him, and smote the Philistines ...."

2SA 6:2-23 Because she rebuked him for having exposed himself, Michal (David's wife) was barren throughout her life.

2SA 8:1-18 (A listing of some of David's murderous conquests.)

2SA 8:4 David hamstrung all but a few of the horses.

2SA 8:5 David slew 22,000 Syrians.

2SA 8:6, 14 "The Lord gave victory to David wherever he went."

2SA 8:13 David slew 18,000 Edomites in the valley of salt and made the rest slaves.

2SA 10:18 David slew 47,000+ Syrians.

2SA 11:14-27 David has Uriah killed so that he can marry Uriah's wife, Bathsheba.

2SA 12:1, 19 The Lord strikes David's child dead for the sin that David has committed.

2SA 13:1-15 Amnon loves his sister Tamar, rapes her, then hates her.

2SA 13:28-29 Absalom has Amnon murdered.

2SA 18:6 -7 20,000 men are slaughtered at the battle in the forest of Ephraim.

2SA 18:15 Joab's men murder Absalom.

2SA 20:10-12 Joab's men murder Amasa and leave him "... wallowing in his own blood in the highway. And anyone who came by, seeing him, stopped."

2SA 24:15 The Lord sends a pestilence on Israel that kills 70,000 men.

1KI 2:24-25 Solomon has Adonijah murdered.

1KI 2:29-34 Solomon has Joab murdered.

1KI 2:46 Solomon has Shime-i murdered.

1KI 13:15-24 A man is killed by a lion for eating bread and drinking water in a place where the Lord had previously told him not to. This is in spite of the fact that the man had subsequently been lied to by a prophet who told the man that an angel of the Lord said that it would be alright to eat and drink there.

1KI 20:29-30 The Israelites smite 100,000 Syrian soldiers in one day. A wall falls on 27,000 remaining Syrians.

2KI 1:10-12 Fire from heaven comes down and consumes fifty men.

2KI 2:23-24 Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God.

2KI 5:27 Elisha curses Gehazi and his descendants forever with leprosy.

2KI 6:18-19 The Lord answers Elisha's prayer and strikes the Syrians with blindness. Elisha tricks the blind Syrians and leads them to Samaria.

2KI 6:29 "So we cooked my son and ate him. The next day I said to her, 'Give up your son so we may eat him,' but she had hidden him."

2KI 9:24 Jehu tricks and murders Joram.

2KI 9:27 Jehu has Ahaziah killed.

2KI 9:30-37 Jehu has Jezebel killed. Her body is trampled by horses. Dogs eat her flesh so that only her skull, feet, and the palms of her hands remain.

2KI 10:7 Jehu has Ahab's seventy sons beheaded, then sends the heads to their father.

2KI 10:14 Jehu has forty-two of Ahab's kin killed.

2KI 10:17 "And when he came to Samaria, he slew all that remained to Ahab in Samaria, till he had wiped them out, according to the word of the Lord ...."

2KI 10:19-27 Jehu uses trickery to massacre the Baal worshippers.

2KI 11:1 Athaliah destroys all the royal family.

2KI 14:5, 7 Amaziah kills his servants and then 10,000 Edomites.

2KI 15:3-5 Even though he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, the Lord smites Azariah with leprosy for not having removed the "high places."

2KI 15:16 Menahem ripped open all the women who were pregnant.

2KI 19:35 An angel of the Lord kills 185,000 men.

1CH 20:3 (KJV) "And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes."

2CH 13:17 500,000 Israelites are slaughtered.

2CH 21:4 Jehoram slays all his brothers.

PS 137:9 Happy will be the man who dashes your little ones against the stones.

PS 144:1 God is praised as the one who trains hands for war and fingers for battle.

IS 13:15 "Everyone who is captured will be thrust through; all who are caught will fall by the sword. Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their ... wives will be ravished."

IS 13:18 "Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children."

IS 14:21-22 "Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers."

IS 49:26 The Lord will cause the oppressors of the Israelite's to eat their own flesh and to become drunk on their own blood as with wine.

JE 16:4 "They shall die grievous deaths; they shall not be lamented; neither shall they be buried; but they shall be as dung upon the face of the earth: and they shall be consumed by the sword, and by famine; and their carcasses shall be meat for the fowls of heaven, and for the beasts of the earth."

LA 4:9-10 "Those slain by the sword are better off than those who die of famine; racked with hunger, they waste away for lack of food. ... pitiful women have cooked their own children, who became their food ..."

EZ 6:12-13 The Lord says: "... they will fall by the sword, famine and plague. He that is far away will die of the plague, and he that is near will fall by the sword, and he that survives and is spared will die of famine. So will I spend my wrath upon them. And they will know I am the Lord, when the people lie slain among their idols around their altars, on every high hill and on all the mountaintops, under every spreading tree and every leafy oak ...."

EZ 9:4-6 The Lord commands: "... slay old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women ...."

EZ 20:26 In order that he might horrify them, the Lord allowed the Israelites to defile themselves through, amongst other things, the sacrifice of their first-born children.

EZ 21:3-4 The Lord says that he will cut off both the righteous and the wicked that his sword shall go against all flesh.

EZ 23:25, 47 God is going to slay the sons and daughters of those who were whores.

EZ 23:34 "You shall ... pluck out your hair, and tear your breasts."

HO 13:16 "They shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up."

MI 3:2-3 "... who pluck off their skin ..., and their flesh from off their bones; Who also eat the flesh of my people, and flay their skin from off them; and they break their bones, and chop them in pieces, as for the pot, and as flesh within the caldron."

MT 3:12, 8:12, 10:21, 13:30, 42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, LK 13:28, JN 5:24 Some will spend eternity burning in Hell. There will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

MT 10:21 "... the brother shall deliver up his brother to death, and the father his child, ... children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death."

MT 10:35-36 "For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law a man's enemies will be the members of his own family."

MT 11:21-24 Jesus curses [the inhabitants of] three cities who were not sufficiently impressed with his great works.

AC 13:11 Paul purposefully blinds a man (though not permanently)."

-S-

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A4 ItemsA4 SingletonG4 ItemsG4 ForgingG4 Infiltrator NR Items The Lonely Celt
Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #36
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

There's Christian proverb that you know a tree by the fruit it bears. Good and rotten trees produce fruit accordingly. So if the Bible was from an wicked source it would instruct one to do wicked deeds. Does it? My examination tells me no. On the contrary it elevates thinking and morality.
For the sake of argument, let's concede your point that the Bible, if read correctly, promotes good rather than evil. Nonetheless, the fact remains that many people sincerely believe the Bible justifies them in doing various kinds of evil. If whoever wrote the Bible was a being of superhuman intellect, that being should have reasonably foreseen the misuses to which it would be put: that is, the fruit it bears in practice rather than in theory.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #37
And a relative point made earlier, but ignored, which I think may be the most basically central to the whole concept of God delivering a book to humanity...what an inept author. That "His" writings should inspire so much confusion, division, contrariness, splits, denominations, bickering, wars, and evils shows how wise and capable the Christian God is of delivering clear instructions and intentions to humanking. That people worship this pathetic communicator unquestioningly shows how low the bar lies for qualifying to be God. I hold the bar a bit higher if God is going to claim to author a book to save humankind and deliver it into His Kingdom of love and perfection. If you look at it historically, what a colossal failure. 2000 years later of Bible inundation, and the world seems little closer to the promised Kingdom of God swallowing it up. But Jesus is of course coming back this year, and if not this year, then the next, and the next after that...hold on just a little longer folks. It's never here, but always just around the corner.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #38
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

There's Christian proverb that you know a tree by the fruit it bears. Good and rotten trees produce fruit accordingly. So if the Bible was from an wicked source it would instruct one to do wicked deeds. Does it? My examination tells me no. On the contrary it elevates thinking and morality.

Really? This is actually a line of logic that you accept? The reason I ask is because it smacks of pure prejudice. Plain and simple, if you judge that fruit by the parent tree, you are severely limiting your world.

Man. You pick the weirdest lines of argument some times. :rolleyes:

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Synergy - "I don't get it."

Dikiyoba - "Dang. I'm one firecracker short from getting a gourd potion today."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #39
Stillness wrote:
"The arguments about the Bible passing through human hands is only valid if God doesn’t exist or if he didn’t mean the Bible to be given to humans. If he exists and wanted the Bible to be, then he certainly can protect it."

Did you actually read the article on year mistranslation or just my blurb about it? Quote and contend something from the article.

"God preserving it doesn’t require that humans not make mistakes. It requires that we are able to sort them out"

wtf??? That's your definition of God protecting and preserving His perfect Word? He carelessly, partially, arbitrarily protects it from error? So, tell me, whose opinion on what the correct sorting of these kinds of mistakes are we supposed to believe? How do you personally know what God originally said and meant through the myriad errors and contradictions and literal absurdities? Please do elaborate.

"Just because an animal doesn’t exist now doesn’t mean it didn’t exist in the past."

I don't believe we've found any giant, dragon, or unicorn skeletons yet, which shouldn't be hard to do considering they should be 6000 years old or less.

""When Jesus was crucified, there was three hours of complete darkness "over all the earth." It is strange that there is no record of this extraordinary event outside of the gospels. 23:44-45"

So you conclude it did not happen because you don’t know of any other record? Is that logical? Also, it would be dark already in other places on the globe. But,most likely “earth” here means “land” as Matthew and Mark’s accounts indicate."

I would think Josephus, at the very least, would have recorded such a hugely witnessed supernatural event during that era. The fact that virtually every such assertion of magical earthly events is never corroborated by any other ancient record is highly suspect at best, ya think? The sundial turning back some hours? The sun standing still? The plagues of Egypt? Nothing on record anywhere. Heck, they can't even find definitive proof that King David ever existed or that Israel wielded the power and influence Scriptures claim during his era.

Stillness, you won't be permitted to dodge salient points in this one and just move on with a casual dismissive wave of your hand and contradictorty reassertion that somehow God created and preserved His perfect word, except it's not perfect or reliable actually, but that doesn't actually matter. I want you to address any number of apparent contradictions or impossibilities in Scripture. Try http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/inconsistencies.html for the moment. Actually engage the material specifically. I want to see how you have actually addressed, handled, justified, and dismissed any seeming problems Scriptures like these raise.

Here. I'll help you out by selecting just a few to address, because I doubt you really will on your own. Please explain these, since God has given you everything you need to know what He meant to communicate.

GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.?GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.

GE 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.?GE 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood.?NU 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.

GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8, 9:1 God is seen.?EX 33:20, JN 1:18, 1JN 4:12 God is not seen. No one can see God's face and live. No one has ever seen him.

EX 12:30 The Lord kills all the first-born of Egypt and there is not a house where there is not at least one dead. (This means that there was not a house in Egypt that did not include at least one first-born---a most unusual situation.)

EX 12:37, NU 1:45-46 The number of men of military age who take part in the Exodus is given as about 600,000. Allowing for women, children, and older men would probably mean that a total of more than 2,000,000 Israelites left Egypt at a time when the whole population of Egypt was less than 2,000,000.

EX 17:14 God says that he will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek. ?DT 25:19 "... you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you must not forget." ?(That remembrance is now permanently preserved in the Bible.)

2SA 24:1 The Lord inspired David to take the census.?1CH 21:1 Satan inspired the census.

1KI 8:13, AC 7:47 Solomon, whom God made the wisest man ever, built his temple as an abode for God.?AC 7:48-49 God does not dwell in temples built by men.

1KI 15:14 Asa did not remove the high places.?2CH 14:2-3 He did remove them.

1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, 2TH 2:11 God himself causes a lying spirit.?PR 12:22 God abhors lying lips and delights in honesty.

James 1:13 says "..for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
Gen 22:1 says "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..."

God is ignorant?

Lev 11:20-21: "All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you."
Fowl do not go upon all four.

Lev 11:6: "And the hare, because he cheweth the cud..."
Hare do not chew the cud.

Deut 14:7: " "...as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof."
For the hare this is wrong on both counts: Hare don’t chew the cud and they do divide the "hoof."

Seriously, man, just tackle these and explain away how God divinely inspired these things and preserved them to properly guide us for all time?

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Agent
Member # 1934
Profile Homepage #40
quote:
EX 12:30 The Lord kills all the first-born of Egypt and there is not a house where there is not at least one dead. (This means that there was not a house in Egypt that did not include at least one first-born---a most unusual situation.)
Umm, so you don't think that each family had kids? Maybe not firstborn sons, but I don't see why you think this is messed up.

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You acquire an item: Radio Free Foil
Posts: 1169 | Registered: Monday, September 23 2002 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #41
Actually Andra, that is highly suspect. The first born is likely to have died at a very young age due to various "stuff'n'things" that happen to kids that don't receive proper, or any, medical care. I would be surprised if today, in Eygpt, there is a first born for every household.

Or war. That would kill'em too.

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Synergy - "I don't get it."

Dikiyoba - "Dang. I'm one firecracker short from getting a gourd potion today."
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #42
Who says the Bible should have been a moral manual of foolproof clarity, to bring about peace on Earth? There have been a lot of simplistic moral manuals, and they're not much good for anything. And we know that no existing God can have peace on Earth as first priority, because wars are not stopped by miracles. Jesus explicitly disavowed the mission of bringing peace.

I don't know what God's overriding aim is, for the Bible or anything else. I'm not sure I could know, any more than a paramecium could understand my aims. So I'm not buying arguments that the Bible fails to fulfill some assumed purpose.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #43
quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

My contention, based on experience, is that people who have read the Bible are not, on average, morally better than people who have not.
No contention here. Reading about something does nothing if you don’t apply what’s read.

By the way, Ford makes cars knowing that some people will use their cars to intentionally hit others. Should they not make cars since they could be misused?

quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

That "His" writings should inspire so much confusion, division, contrariness, splits, denominations, bickering, wars, and evils shows how wise and capable the Christian God is of delivering clear instructions and intentions to humankind.
It’s clear to us. Confusion does not come from God or his word.

quote:
2000 years later of Bible inundation, and the world seems little closer to the promised Kingdom of God swallowing it up. But Jesus is of course coming back this year, and if not this year, then the next, and the next after that...hold on just a little longer folks. It's never here, but always just around the corner.
Maybe you don’t know what to look for or how to look for it. Here’s one sign:

2 Peter 3:3, 4 For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Sarcasmon:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

There's Christian proverb that you know a tree by the fruit it bears. Good and rotten trees produce fruit accordingly. So if the Bible was from an wicked source it would instruct one to do wicked deeds. Does it? My examination tells me no. On the contrary it elevates thinking and morality.

Really? This is actually a line of logic that you accept? The reason I ask is because it smacks of pure prejudice. Plain and simple, if you judge that fruit by the parent tree, you are severely limiting your world.

Man. You pick the weirdest lines of argument some times. :rolleyes:

Hmm, one of us does not understand the other. I’m not judging the fruit by the tree, but the opposite. If a tree has delicious apples growing from it, it is a good apple tree. If a person does good to you and encourages you to do good as well, he’s a good person. I don’t know what prejudice you’re talking about.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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Profile #44
quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

The God of the Bible condones slaughter, torture, use, misuse and discarding of women, cutting people to death with saws and knives, burning with fire, ad nauseum. The God of the Old Testament has almost nothing to do with the God of the new and in fact the OT came within a hairbreadth of being discarded from the canon of Christianity at an early point.
Your distinction between old and new is imagined. God’s activity and personality are uniform throughout. But let’s not dwell on that because you’re bringing up good points. I’ll try to tackle the bulk of them.

“GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)”

Being deceived does not justify criminal activity. Obedience would have prevented the fall of man. God gave them an opportunity to express their love and appreciation for his gifts and they betray him and steal. He is not to blame.

GE 4:2-8 God's arbitrary preference of Abel's offering to that of Cain's provokes Cain to commit the first biblically recorded murder and kill his brother Abel.

Synergy you didn’t read the scriptures you cite well. God tells Cain he is doing bad and tries to reason with him to turn around. He tells him he’ll be proud of him if he does. Instead of listening he turns right around and kills his brother. This is a beautiful account. God is dealing with Cain him just as a wise father would deal with a wayward son. He asks questions to draw him out and get him to reason on his own. He lets him know he loves him but he can do better.

Ge 4:6, 7 “Why are you hot with anger and why has your countenance fallen? If you turn to doing good, will there not be an exaltation? But if you do not turn to doing good, there is sin crouching at the entrance; and will you for your part get the mastery over it?”

This is the way God is right from the beginning up until the very end of the Bible. He is patient and loving, but he does not tolerate wrongdoing forever.

GE 34:13-29 The Israelites kill Hamor, his son, and all the men of their village, taking as plunder their wealth, cattle, wives and children.

Here, like many of the scriptures you list, God does not sanction this activity. It is simply a record of what happened. In fact their father, Jacob (Israel), disapproves of their retaliation. I’m not going to address every single instance that you simply list something that happened as if God is OK with it.

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

Murder is unlawful killing. God does not murder. As the Sovereign Lord and Judge of the universe he has the right, even the obligation, to get rid of wickedness. Otherwise he is wicked.

GE 19:26 God personally sees to it that Lot's wife is turned to a pillar of salt (for having looked behind her while fleeing the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah).

At the risk of sounding callous, Lot’s wife was very stupid. Two of God’s angels had just miraculously blinded every man in the city to protect Lot and his family and dragged them to safety when they weren’t moving quickly enough. They then give explicit instructions to flee and “DO NOT LOOK BEHIND” so that they would not be saved. Dude, I know this stuff is kinda hard to get sometimes, but if you look at the account you can see he’s easy. It says he compassionately forced them to go when they lingered. Lot didn’t like God’s instructions and so he conceded and changed them and guaranteed he would not act until he was safe. But why after all of this would she test his patience by disobeying him? Why did Lot and his daughters have no problem obeying this simple command?

God gives way more that he takes. He doesn’t request more than we can do. In fact, his requests are always for our own good. All he asks is that we show love and appreciation in return by obeying. Why should anyone not willing to cooperate with him get to live? I would really like an answer to this question.

EX 21:20-21 With the Lord's approval, a slave may be beaten to death with no punishment for the perpetrator as long as the slave doesn't die too quickly.

If the slave did not die immediately, that would indicate that the master did not have murder in his heart and would also raise question as to whether or not the beating was actually responsible for the death.

EX 32:27-29 With the Lord's approval, the Israelites slay 3000 men.

They broke a law punishable by death in the covenant they willingly entered into with God.

LE 27:29 Human sacrifice is condoned. (Note: An example is given in JG 11:30-39)

Never! God is saying if a person is judged to be destroyed, no one can buy him out of that state. Jephthah’s daughter was not killed. She was “sacrificed” in that she would live out her life in sacred duties at God’s sanctuary, just like Hannah did with Samuel. (1 Sa 1:11)

“You must not learn to do according to the detestable things of those nations. There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire . . . For everybody doing these things is something detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable things Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you.” (De 18:9-12)

“And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (Jer 7:31)

NU 31:17-18 Moses, following the Lord's command, orders the Israelites to kill all the Midianite male children and "... every woman who has known man ...." (Note: How would it be determined which women had known men? One can only speculate.)

The Midianites had just purposefully and successfully seduced Israelites into breaking God’s law using sex and their gods. They did this to make God remove his blessing and punish Israel. Midian was punished for their manipulation.

JS 10:40 (A summary statement.) "So Joshua defeated the whole land ...; he left none remaining, but destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded."

They died because they were wicked. God was not indiscriminate though. He never is. Two very noteworthy groups survived, The Gibeonites and Rahab and her household. (Jos 2:1-16; 9:3-14) In both instances Jehovah was recognized as the true God and they demonstrated a willingness to serve him and he granted their request for favor. Rahab is actually an ancestress of Jesus.

I wonder if you think it’s always wrong for anyone to be killed or if it’s just wrong when God does it. Are you anti death penalty, war, abortion? Answer this question for me too, please.

1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)

Num 4:20 “And they must not come in to see the holy things for the least moment of time, and so they have to die.”

2SA 6:2-23 Because she rebuked him for having exposed himself, Michal (David's wife) was barren throughout her life.

On some of these I can see your point, but a lot of these, like this one, I wonder if you’re even reading the account or are you pulling this stuff from some list. Was David clothed? Was his wife’s rebuke because she was concerned about modesty or was she showing disrespect because of some other feeling that the scripture says she had toward God’s anointed king – his representative?

2KI 2:23-24 Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God

Disrespect of Jehovah’s representatives is disrespect of him, no matter the age. These children were reflecting the apostate mentality of their parents and the nation. It was not just childish silliness.

MT 10:35-36 "For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law a man's enemies will be the members of his own family."

What do you think Jesus meaning is here? Do you think he’s saying he wants to destroy families? Use the context.

MT 3:12, 8:12, 10:21, 13:30, 42, 22:13, 24:51, 25:30, LK 13:28, JN 5:24 Some will spend eternity burning in Hell. There will be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth.

This is the “New Testament” right? I thought only in the “Old Testament” does God kill people. Anyway these don’t support your claim. Let’s take Jesus words at your last scripture at John 5:24:

“Most truly I say to YOU, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life.”

If you spend eternity weeping and gnashing your teeth then are you alive or dead? Jesus says the only way to get everlasting life is to listen and believe in him. The alternative is a judgment of death, not life – unpleasant or otherwise. At some point, those that receive that judgment will know it and yes they will weep and gnash teeth, but not forever. Dead people don’t do anything. Death is the opposite of life.

So if you interpret the scriptures as you have and find conflict and wickedness on God’s part, then know that it is only your interpretation in which these things exist. I read the same scriptures and see the same harmonious message of God’s love and justice. If you want to be critical and find contradictions you can find them in the Bible or in any other message if you like. But, if you want to find the truth that also can be found.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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Profile #45
quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

I don't believe we've found any giant, dragon, or unicorn skeletons yet, which shouldn't be hard to do considering they should be 6000 years old or less.
We haven’t even found all of the living animals yet, let alone extinct ones. Yet, we do know that nature abounds with strange creatures with amazing abilities. You might want to check different modern translations to see how some of the names of these creatures are translated though.

quote:
The fact that virtually every such assertion of magical earthly events is never corroborated by any other ancient record is highly suspect at best, ya think?
The flood is highly corroborated. When powerful evidence like the many legends of the flood all over the world is presented it’s minimized. God splitting the languages at Babel is corroborated. Excavations in and around the ancient city of Babylon have revealed the sites of several ziggurats. A fragment found N of the temple of Marduk in Babylon related the fall of a ziggurat in these words: “The building of this temple offended the gods. In a night they threw down what had been built. They scattered them abroad, and made strange their speech. The progress they impeded.” (Bible and Spade, by S. L. Caiger, 1938, p. 29)

quote:
Stillness, you won't be permitted to dodge salient points in this one and just move on with a casual dismissive wave of your hand and contradictory reassertion that somehow God created and preserved His perfect word, except it's not perfect or reliable actually, but that doesn't actually matter.
It is reliable. Copyists used great care in transmitting the original texts accurately. The Masoretes counted the letters they copied. There are something like 6000 ancient manuscripts of the entire Hebrew scriptures or portions of it and 5000 of the Christian Scriptures in Greek. If one scribe makes an error, all of them don’t make the same one. Comparison will reveal it. Your standard seems to be no errors…ever. Mine is that the information is conveyed reliably. I’m not waving anything away or dodging points.

GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah's Ark.
GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.


The clean animals were taken in sevens.

GE 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.
GE 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood.
NU 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.


They were called Nephilim because of their size.

GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11,
NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8, 9:1 God is seen.
EX 33:20, JN 1:18, 1JN 4:12 God is not seen. No one can see God's face and live. No one has ever seen him.


Men do not see God as he truly is, but only in some representational form.

EX 12:30 The Lord kills all the first-born of Egypt and there is not a house where there is not at least one dead. (This means that there was not a house in Egypt that did not include at least one first-born---a most unusual situation.)

Never heard this one before. My guess would be a difference in the definition of “house.” In the Bible and even in some modern languages like Mandarin Chinese, “house” conveys the meaning “family.” Also extended families occupy one literal house in many cultures. I don’t really see a problem here.

EX 12:37, NU 1:45-46 The number of men of military age who take part in the Exodus is given as about 600,000. Allowing for women, children, and older men would probably mean that a total of more than 2,000,000 Israelites left Egypt at a time when the whole population of Egypt was less than 2,000,000.

Some Egyptians left with them, but also

Ex 1:8, 9 In time there arose over Egypt a new king who did not know Joseph. And he proceeded to say to his people: “Look! The people of the sons of Israel are more numerous and mightier than we are.

EX 17:14 God says that he will utterly blot out the remembrance of Amalek.
DT 25:19 "... you shall blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven; you must not forget." (That remembrance is now permanently preserved in the Bible.)


This is what I mean by being critical and taking words too literally. Other translations can make it clearer too. But the idea is that Amalek will be removed. The New World Translation says “wipe out the mention.” So, in 2007 we are not saying, “I wonder what’s going on in the land of Amalek.”

2SA 24:1 The Lord inspired David to take the census.
1CH 21:1 Satan inspired the census.


God was displeased and so removed his protection and allowed Satan to do it. Joseph B. Rotherham’s translation reads: “The anger of Yahweh kindled against Israel, so that he suffered David to be moved against them saying, Go count Israel and Judah.”

1KI 8:13, AC 7:47 Solomon, whom God made the wisest man ever, built his temple as an abode for God.
AC 7:48-49 God does not dwell in temples built by men.


Again, you’re being overly literal and ignoring context. No one expected God to literally live in the temple. It was a center of worship to God and a representation of God’s true dwelling. Note Solomon’s prayer:

2 Ch 6:18 “But will God truly dwell with mankind upon the earth? Look! Heaven, yes, the heaven of the heavens themselves, cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built?

1KI 15:14 Asa did not remove the high places.
2CH 14:2-3 He did remove them.


2 Ch 15:17 agrees with the 1 Ki account. Some high places were used for worship of pagan gods and some for worship of Jehovah. (1 Ch 21:29) It may be that Asa did not have the same zeal for removal of improper worship at the latter as he did at the former. Or possibly he removed them and they cropped up again.

1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, 2TH 2:11 God himself causes a lying spirit.
PR 12:22 God abhors lying lips and delights in honesty.


This account at 1 Ki was actually troublesome to me when I started to study the Bible and is IMO your strongest contention. The scripture you list at 2TH helps to resolve it. I’m going to have to spend some time on it.

1 KI 22 has the king of the northern kingdom of Israel, Ahab (an apostate Jew), and the king of Judah, Jehoshaphat (a servant of Jehovah), allied and prepared to war with Syria. Jehoshaphat suggests that they first inquire of God, as the faithful kings did before battle. Ahab collects his prophets together, about 400 of them, and they are unanimous about the success to be had. Here’s where the picture starts to become clear: After hearing from Ahab’s prophets, Jehoshaphat asks, “Is there not here a prophet of Jehovah still?” Ahab’s response – “There is still one man through whom to inquire of Jehovah; but I myself certainly hate him, for he does not prophesy good things concerning me but bad – Micaiah.”

This tells us that everyone knew that the 400 were not God’s prophets, but Micaiah was. It also tells us that Ahab was not interested in hearing the truth, but just wanted prophets to say what he wanted to hear. Jehoshaphat wants to hear from Jehovah’s prophet. So, Micaiah not only tells them that Jehovah said they would lose the battle, but reveals a vision he had of heaven in which all of God’s angels are standing before his throne. God asks who wants to fool king Ahab. Different angels present various ideas about how it should be done until finally one angel has what Jehovah finds to be a good idea.

Vs.22 - ‘I shall go forth, and I shall certainly become a deceptive spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ So he said, ‘You will fool him, and, what is more, you will come off the winner. Go out and do that way.’

We are not told what this angel did or said. Maybe he told them something like, “Jehovah wants the king to go into battle,” (which would not be a lie, but would deceive the king). Whatever it was we know that they said what they wanted to say and what Ahab wanted to hear. If he had seeking the truth from God he would not have died in battle. 2 Th 2:10-12 tells us about those like him who “are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth that they might be saved. So that is why God lets an operation of error go to them, that they may get to believing the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

So God puts the truth out there for those who love it, but lets those who don’t believe lies. No conflict.

James 1:13 says "..for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."
Gen 22:1 says "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham..."


God doesn’t try us with evil. He’s not trying to get us to do wrong.

Lev 11:20-21: "All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you."
Fowl do not go upon all four.


Simply reading the scripture or trying different translations will sometimes expose the intent of the people that make up these lists. They’re counting on you not doing that.

Le 11:20-22 Every winged swarming creature that goes on all fours is a loathsome thing to YOU…These are the ones of them YOU may eat of: the migratory locust according to its kind, and the edible locust after its kind, and the cricket according to its kind, and the grasshopper according to its kind.

Lev 11:6: "And the hare, because he cheweth the cud..."
Hare do not chew the cud.


They do something similar. Call it what you want. But don’t judge biblical accuracy on modern concepts and definitions.

Deut 14:7: " "...as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof."
For the hare this is wrong on both counts: Hare don’t chew the cud and they don’t divide the "hoof."


You’re right about the second part. Read closer.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
Profile Homepage #46
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

quote:
Originally written by Synergy:

I don't believe we've found any giant, dragon, or unicorn skeletons yet, which shouldn't be hard to do considering they should be 6000 years old or less.
We haven’t even found all of the living animals yet, let alone extinct ones. Yet, we do know that nature abounds with strange creatures with amazing abilities.

I think Stillness just said that he believes in dragons and unicorns. I am amused.

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Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

I think Stillness just said that he believes in dragons and unicorns. I am amused.
I don't know about unicorns, but dragons are alive and well on Komodo. :P

I do believe that the King James version in particular has some odd translations of animal names. At Numbers 23:22 it says "unicorn," but the strong's version has this ftn. - "probably the great aurochs or wild bulls which are now extinct. The exact meaning is not known." The NWT says "wild bull." NRSV says "wild ox." Is an animal with a horn on its head or large lizards that ridiculous though? If we didn't know for a fact that there are animals like this now or that have existed in the past, maybe this would be a good point.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
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Dragons = dinosaurs = evolution.

I tawt I taw a puddy tat.

I DID! I did see a puddy tat.

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Synergy - "I don't get it."

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Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
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Profile Homepage #49
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

“GE 3:1-7, 22-24 God allows Adam and Eve to be deceived by the Serpent (the craftiest of all of God's wild creatures). They eat of the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil," thereby incurring death for themselves and all of mankind for ever after. God prevents them from regaining eternal life, by placing a guard around the "Tree of Eternal Life." (Note: God could have done the same for the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the first place and would thereby have prevented the Fall of man, the necessity for Salvation, the Crucifixion of Jesus, etc.)”

Being deceived does not justify criminal activity. Obedience would have prevented the fall of man. God gave them an opportunity to express their love and appreciation for his gifts and they betray him and steal. He is not to blame.
Before eating the fruit, they were like children. In fact, God frequently references that humans are his children. Children can easily be led astray by outside influence. Tell me, do you know anyone who'd punish a child with death for taking a small step out of line? It does happen, but not frequently. And those that do it are generally not perceived as holy, fatherly figures after it happens, once everyone learns about it.

Your message is that God is a loving being; doesn't love involve forgiveness?

GE 6:11-17, 7:11-24 God is unhappy with the wickedness of man and decides to do something about it. He kills every living thing on the face of the earth other than Noah's family and thereby makes himself the greatest mass murderer in history.

Murder is unlawful killing. God does not murder. As the Sovereign Lord and Judge of the universe he has the right, even the obligation, to get rid of wickedness. Otherwise he is wicked.[/quote]
This might be plausible if he didn't cause so much collateral damage. How many innocent bystanders did he annihilate when the flood came?

The bystanders I refer to are the animals who couldn't know or understand wickedness, and perhaps a few men who were not wicked. If God does not commit murder, than the floods could not have come. If the floods came, which you claim, then God committed murder.

quote:
1SA 6:19 God kills seventy men (or so) for looking into the Ark (at him?). (Note: The early Israelites apparently thought the Ark to be God's abode.)

Num 4:20 “And they must not come in to see the holy things for the least moment of time, and so they have to die.”
So he killed, no , murdered 70 people for doing something they were unaware of being wrong.

You can't have it both ways. The only way God can be the ultimate being of love and commit mass-murder is if he loves homicide.

quote:
2KI 2:23-24 Forty-two children are mauled and killed, presumably according to the will of God, for having jeered at a man of God

Disrespect of Jehovah’s representatives is disrespect of him, no matter the age. These children were reflecting the apostate mentality of their parents and the nation. It was not just childish silliness.
First, I'd again like to point out a lovely little word that keeps cropping up here: Murder (which God supposedly does not do). Besides, wouldn't it have been more appropriate (not that it's appropriate by any means) to go after the ones who taught them the disrespect?

quote:
EX 12:30 The Lord kills all the first-born of Egypt and there is not a house where there is not at least one dead. (This means that there was not a house in Egypt that did not include at least one first-born---a most unusual situation.)

Never heard this one before. My guess would be a difference in the definition of “house.” In the Bible and even in some modern languages like Mandarin Chinese, “house” conveys the meaning “family.” Also extended families occupy one literal house in many cultures. I don’t really see a problem here.
Here's yet another account of God committing murder. For a being that doesn't commit homicide, he certainly has a lot of bodies piling up at his feet.

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