Life on Europa

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AuthorTopic: Life on Europa
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #50
Frozen, you left out the part about why you seem to be hopeful.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #51
quote:
Originally written by Safey:

I am a christian and as a christian I will hold my self to the certain rules I believe a Christian should follow. However as a Christian I believe it completely unreasonable to expect non Christians to hold christian values. As Chrisians we should be more concerned about the preaching of our faith then political games.
Christians might have more impact on the world at this point if they spent their energy being a living demonstration of their faith and did a lot less preaching. Nothing sells itself like a living model of success without a pushy, judgemental agenda. If the role model is not appealing, then it is hollow to begin with, and deservest the apathy it earns. The good stuff sells itself ultimately.

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 5545
Profile Homepage #52
Perhaps I read The Martian Chronicles one too many times, but I can't help but think that, rather than discovering life on Europa, we might be the ones to plant it. Consider the high probability that any sub that we sent that far would first have to be tested in our own oceans. If some super tough tubeworm was to hitch a ride to some vents in another world... Who knows what we'd find on our next expedition. On that note, who's to say we weren't seeded by life forms from another planet?

Edit: Alex got there before me. All I have to say to his query is that, in the event that the idea comes up, I doubt many would be against introducing life elsewhere in the Solar System. I don't think it will be on the agenda, though. Accidental seeding is far more likely.

[ Wednesday, July 11, 2007 17:30: Message edited by: Actaeon ]

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Posts: 344 | Registered: Friday, February 25 2005 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #53
So...this interesting topic sure died the death after religion got sucked out of it, didn't it? That just seems wrong.

I personally doubt there is life on Europa or on anything that far from the sun in our solar system, though we see how remarkably able and adaptive life has been on our own planet. It's amazing to see those crabs and worms, etc. which live in boiling hot water coming out of thermal vents, for instance, or how goldfish freeze in ice and thaw out in the spring perfectly alive. It is hard to conceive of life without water.

It is not hard to imagine life teeming throughout the universe on likely planets, even if it is overall a rare thing. The harder thing to imagine is that if there is intelligent life, what would it look like, how did it get there/develop, and what are the spiritual implications?

-S-

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Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00
Canned
Member # 8014
Profile #54
There is life on other planets.

With quadtrillions of light years of space, there can't be life on only one of those tiny little planets.

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Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #55
I was sad to see this topic die as I thought it was much more interesting than the religion one. I never really got the answer to my question of why some seem to be so hopeful. I figured my curiosity was not shared and so just let it go.

I would be shocked if we found life on other planets, but I'm not hopeful either way. I think the impact on me would be based on the nature of the life elsewhere. If it was exactly or basically like the animal life we see here, it wouldn't change my view of the universe much.

Which brings up another question: What if the life we found elsewhere was exactly like it is on this planet?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #56
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

I was sad to see this topic die as I thought it was much more interesting than the religion one. I never really got the answer to my question of why some seem to be so hopeful. I figured my curiosity was not shared and so just let it go.
Most people, especially scientists, like the idea of a universe filled with interesting things. Life is an interesting thing.

quote:
Which brings up another question: What if the life we found elsewhere was exactly like it is on this planet?
Well, for starters, it'd be pretty strong evidence for some form of panspermia.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #57
If life elsewhere were exactly like life here, the conspiracy theorists would go nuts and scientists would suddenly start getting big grants to hypothesize wildly. If it were extremely similar, perhaps with obviously analogous species that weren't able to interbreed with Earth counterparts, it would just be taken as support for a common chain of evolution.

—Alorael, who thinks something like shared DNA might be good evidence of panspermia. Space cows would be a little beyond that.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #58
I think it's more than just a desire for interesting things. Space is so vast and mysterious. I think people are hoping to find the answers there that they can't here. The stars have long held a spiritual place in the hearts of some. I think the hopeful will keep meeting with disappointment as we see more and more barren space the further we look.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #59
I think you're projecting. Space is vast and mysterious, but it's only mysterious because it's hard to know much about it. The more we see, the more space tends to be just more space. Finding something dramatically different is much more interesting than finding more rocks floating in conic sections around prolongued nuclear explosions.

—Alorael, who can at least agree with hoping to find answers that can't be found here. That is, of course, the entire point of science in space. It's just that the questions are probably much less mystical than you envision.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #60
I think there's some why along with the what and how.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #61
Once again I must accuse you of imposing your own structure, perhaps even your own why, on those who think very differently. Why isn't a meaningful question except in the sense of the causes that leads to an effect. You can ask why to inquire about motivations from an intelligent entity, but you can't ask why of the universe. It's not an intelligent entity.

—Alorael, who now wonders why you seem to think it's so absolutely necessary for everyone to care about first motivations and moral causes. Many people are perfectly happy without them.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #62
As was stated earlier in this thread (Drew?), it's not easy to face the utter uncaring vastness of the universe, after having been brought up to believe you were in the center.

Total Perspective Vortex, anyone? :P

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Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #63
quote:
Originally written by Myoepaeia:

You can ask why to inquire about motivations from an intelligent entity, but you can't ask why of the universe. It's not an intelligent entity.
You’re preaching to the choir, but people have been looking to the universe for guidance for ages. It’s not me imposing anything on anyone. I didn’t name the planets. I just watched a stupid movie a few days ago where a 26th century astronaut had a mystical experience with a nebula - art imitating life. People get deep when they start thinking about outer space.

Maybe some are as you said - content to be born, experience joy along with pain, and die without wondering about purpose. I suspect they’re few if any. I also wonder how “perfectly happy” such a person would be. But, I’m open to the possibility that I’m wrong. That is why I asked why people are hopeful.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 4248
Profile #64
quote:
Originally written by jg.faust:

Total Perspective Vortex, anyone? :P
I really hope there was such thing. Getting a glance of the whole is worth of losing your sanity...

...wait, what sanity?

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Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #65
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Maybe some are as you said - content to be born, experience joy along with pain, and die without wondering about purpose. I suspect they’re few if any. I also wonder how “perfectly happy” such a person would be. But, I’m open to the possibility that I’m wrong. That is why I asked why people are hopeful.
Of course not many people are completely devoid of philosophical curiosity. Philosophy doesn't have to be teleology, though. I think "what can be done with this?" is just as satisfying a question as "why is this here?" when you come down to it. And the former leads to action, too!

—Alorael, who wonders if religious and non-religious mindsets are, in fact, unable to fully comprehend each other. VMAT2 and other potential religion genes could make people think very, very differently.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 4248
Profile #66
quote:
Originally written by Adamant Necrologist:

—Alorael, who wonders if religious and non-religious mindsets are, in fact, unable to fully comprehend each other. VMAT2 and other potential religion genes could make people think very, very differently.
Even two persons from the same family can be unable to fully comprehend each other, even if they're both religious or not. So the answer's definitely yes. However, there are multitudes of different religious and non-religious mindsets, and it can greatly vary how and why their perspectives differ. The question might even be related to the question of what separates geniusses from ordinary people or liers from honest ones. But then again, this doesn't really have much to do with Europa. Back to the topic of social decay.

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I have nothing more to do in this world, so I can go & pester the inhabitants of the next one with a pure concscience.
Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #67
I'm more interested in why not than why.

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Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #68
Why not what?

I have some "why" questions about the stars myself, like why are they there, for one. If we did find life out there that might help to answer that question.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #69
"Stars are there because life is out there and needs stellar energy."

Compare with:

"There is life out there because there are stars that provide the energy to support it.

—Alorael, who think that just about sums up the failure to see eye to eye, or teleology to non-teleology.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #70
Intelligence from intelligence

v.

Intelligence from mindless matter

Gets right to the root and is a better characterization I think. It shows the underlying logic behind both positions.

I think they can see eye-to-eye as people have switched sides in both directions. I certainly see your position and have even leaned towards it a bit in the past.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #71
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Intelligence from intelligence

v.

Intelligence from mindless matter

Replace the words "intelligence" and "mindless" with words pertaining to some other property, like "solidity" and "non-solid", and you'll see how vacuous your argument is. If you pour liquid nitrogen into water, the water will freeze solid. If liquid matter can confer the quality of solidity to other matter, then why can't mindless matter confer the quality of intelligence to other matter?

This counterargument goes back as far as Aristotle's time, by the way (although, of course, they didn't have liquid nitrogen back then). It really would do you good to get acquainted with some actual philosophy.

[ Friday, July 27, 2007 16:07: Message edited by: Thuryl ]

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
Profile #72
I was not making an argument, but stating a fact on which we both agree. Alo's summation was unfair as it mischaracterized my position. I don't think mine is unfair to either side.

But let us not tread this path again lest we be banned or the thread frozen. I'll let your word on elemetal physics be the last.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 6700
Profile Homepage #73
Okay, here's a question... if you had to pick a sci-fi universe that would actually be real, which one would it be, and why?

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Posts: 735 | Registered: Monday, January 16 2006 08:00
Shaper
Member # 6292
Profile #74
Hey, this topic has loped along a bit more after all.

I admittedly am the sort who is especially fascinated with the why/what does it mean aspects of the universe. I see no reason this can't couple very nicely with, therefore what can or shall we do with it.

I have the belief that the natural is a physical representation of the spiritual. So, the universe is vast and full of mysteries that will take untold ages to unfold and hopefully explore, because God and our own inner universe of being, so to speak, are equally vast and rich—and probably full of teeming life you have no idea about. Maybe it's a good time to check for parasites.

-S-

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