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Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, July 13 2007 11:55 Profile #69
quote:
Originally written by Drew:

Bear in mind that you are the one who has asserted that men are naturally (and thus intended by God) to be in leadership roles in the family and in congregations.
Misunderstood again. :(

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

A woman could be a better leader, but I do think nature strongly favors men in that department, much like physical strength and build. That’s personal opinion. I reconcile men leading because the family and the congregation is not a democracy or based on the culture and feelings of the members. It is theocratic.
quote:
My assertion is that there are no EVIDENT characteristics intrinsic to either gender that make one superior to the other for purposes of leadership
Well I guess we’ll just have to guess that’s based on your feelings, not any real evidence. I actually do have statistics to back my position.

quote:
I have some swampland in Florida I'd like to sell you.
Hmmm. Does your swampland have any real value or do you just feel like it’s a good buy but in actuality keeping what I have would be more practical?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Europa, God, and you, or Where it all fits. in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, July 13 2007 11:24 Profile #28
No no, you could crash. Stay in the house - in your room if possible. Venturing out you might meet with uncertainty. Then you may actually have to use discernment and adjust.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Europa, God, and you, or Where it all fits. in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, July 13 2007 11:01 Profile #26
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Sarcasmon:

In my belief, if there is a god, then it would be extremely presumptuous of me to assume that the belief set that I espoused would be the correct one. Given the common set of Christian boundaries, it would be far more likely that those beliefs chosen by me as the One true correct set, is in fact a misdirection offered up by Satan.
If you've never been in a car accident it would be better if you never drive. If you drive it's not a question of "if" but "when" you'll be in an accident. If you have been in an accident, you'll most likely have another. The safe bet is to stay at home, or walk, but whatever you do, don't drive. It would be presumptuous of you to assume that you'd make it safely to your destination if you do.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, July 13 2007 10:49 Profile #67
quote:
Originally written by Drew:

what biological, natural factors of the species homo sapiens conclusively indicate that males should serve as heads of household or congregation?
I don’t have an answer to that because I don’t know or understand how it all works biologically. I just know it works better. Actually, it’s not a real big deal if you do it right. My wife and I were study partners in college and she was one of my best friends. We are still best friends and very much in love. It feels right and natural and we’re happy. I look at family and friends who don’t do things God’s way and they simply don’t do as well. My experience tells me that and the statistics I gave you all support it, so I know it’s not my view.

quote:
I contend that there are none
What your basis? Your feelings? Society’s views?

quote:
You leave the impression through your posts that you understand God's will perfectly.
I’m sorry you read me that way. I don’t know it perfectly.

quote:
if Jesus is the Son of God and rose from the dead, how the heck can you, an intelligent individual, extend from such an assertion that the documents you rely on for your morals and strictures governing the roles of women and men aren't in themselves imperfect?
If Jesus is God’s son then there is a God. The Bible’s logic, prophecy, honesty of its penmen, harmony, and practical value have convinced me that it is God’s word. If the is a God that created the universe and everything in it, then writing a little book and preserving it is not a major feat for him. The evidence I’ve seen is overwhelming that that is exactly what happened.

Here’s an interesting tidbit: The holy scriptures were actually preserved by those who were doing the very things it condemns throughout it’s history. That’s another line of evidence. For example:

(1 Timothy 4:1-3) However, the inspired utterance says definitely that in later periods of time some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to misleading inspired utterances and teachings of demons, by the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, marked in their conscience as with a branding iron; forbidding to marry…

The very people who maintained this book forbade marriage for their clergy when the Bible says that’s a demonic lie. To me that’s amazing. Why not change it or take it out? You’d think that if someone was claiming to represent God and a document existed that proved that they weren’t they would do something about it. But no, they protect it. The history of this book is filled with this same oddity. (Odd if you look at it from a non-spiritual perspective).

quote:
Why should the Gospel of Thomas be excluded from "the canon," and who were the folks who decided on that to begin with, and what were their motivations?
The gospel of Thomas may be of historical interest and value, but it’s spurious. It does not harmonize with the rest of the scriptures or carry the theme of the Bible well. The goal of the Jews and the Christians after them was to preserve God’s inspired word. This book was not included in the earliest catalogues of the Christian scriptures because it has no place with them.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Friday, July 13 2007 07:43 Profile #64
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Your views are more influenced by modern western values. A lot of those values are good, especially in this country. Marriages can do ok using them, especially if you have good upbringing and similar backgrounds. It’s just a little more difficult.
As far as I can tell, you have yet to provide any evidence of this difficulty. At all.
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Whatever the reason it doesn’t change the fact that something like 45% of marriages will end in 15 years. I don’t have hard figures for what that rate looks like in marriages where both mates follow the Bible. My faith is strict on that but it is small, with only about 6.5 million - 1 million of those in the States. It doesn’t keep track of marriage and divorce rates. I know that it’s nowhere near that high though. There was actually a study done in Russia that found it to be less than 5% compared with 40% in the general populace. In Germany it’s 4.9%. I would guess that would just about correspond to what I see in the States.

http://www.jw-media.org/region/europe/russia/english/releases/religious_freedom /rus_e030523.htm
quote:
Originally written by jg.faust:

And that belief is part of why no rational person will accept your interpretation of faith.

If she is qualified, then she is qualified. There can be no other way.
A rational person who believes that God has the right to dictate what he requires from his worshippers will accept it and benefit from it.

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Sarcasmon:

I would be remiss if I failed to remind Stillness that this is not a religion of God. It is, and always has been, a religion of men.
Yes, I am reminded that you keep making this claim with no evidence at all to back it up or refute the proof to the contrary.

quote:
Originally written by Alex:

If you say "it's immoral for women to lead our congregation"
I wouldn’t say it’s immoral for a woman to lead. I would say it’s immoral to disobey God regardless of your sex.

quote:
Also, there are behavioural differences, I mean, like, look at the crime statistics posted by Stillness! What have blacks contributed to civilisation in comparison to what people of Aryan descent (Germanic in particular) have achieved?! Surely, a black person isn't best suited to lead a religious community."
2 things

I NEVER said that women haven’t contributed to civilization. They have contributed a great deal and are highly respected within Christian families and congregations for their contribution. So your substitution is weak.

Second, the crime statistics are generated in a historically and presently racist society. I don’t know where you’re from (Germany?), but in the US where I live, the country was build in large part by the know-how and muscle of slaves of African descent. Black people have also contributed scientifically, technologically, and socially here even in the face of extreme prejudice. On a worldwide and historical level you probably feel that way because your history is presented by someone with an Aryan background. That’s understandable because every culture and race always thinks theirs is the best, unfortunately. You should really do some research though. There have been African empires. As a matter of fact, while Europe was in the dark ages you should find out what a people called the Moors (meaning black or very dark) were doing.

quote:
"There are biological differences between the groups of whites and blacks, although there are e.g. albino "black" individuals, if we want to avoid the N word.
We don’t want to avoid it. It’s OK to use now. You have my permission. Start off by coming to Detroit and walking up to some people and calling them by the “N word.” They’ll like you for it.

Seriously though, your difficulty in describing differences in people illustrates the truly arbitrary distinctions we make. I could just as easily divide people by height or shoe size (in fact I could do so with less difficulty). The distinction between the sexes is not arbitrary though. It is natural.

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

etymology has little to do with usage, so what Christ taught has little bearing on the modern definition of "Christianity".
I think I actually agree. Here we call sweet potatoes “yams,” but they’re not. Sweet potatoes and yams are from completely different families. Our usage doesn’t change what is and is not even if it serves to communicate. If there was a need for us to speak accurately and get to actual, as opposed to commonly accepted, meaning we’d call these things what they are. There is a loose definition of “Christian” which can include anyone who was raised a Christian, has been baptized, goes to church on easter and Christmas, etc. These are nominal Christians. Then there is a definition which means “disciple of Christ.” These two are very different.

quote:
Originally written by The Almighty Do-er of Stuff:

To make it more clear what we're asking you at the moment, Stillness, how do you reconcile these two statements?
No one is being judged because of their sex, but the sexes are clearly not the same. I think you all are really missing the forest for the trees. You’re missing that men and women are different and both have unique abilities, restrictions, and requirements placed upon them not just by Christ, but by nature. You are only focusing on one aspect – that men are the heads of marriages and the congregation.

If I say that women tend to have better verbal abilities, so can pick up languages quicker or that they have higher emotional intelligence on average or that they mature quicker am I being judgemental? My wife and I are learning Chinese. The Chinese tell me, “Your Chinese is good” (which they tell anybody that says anything in Chinese). When my wife speaks they say, “You sound like a native speaker.” Am I mad or jealous about that? Absolutely not. We work as a team, so her strengths cover my weaknesses and vice versa. I don’t know of a better way.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, July 12 2007 20:59 Profile #52
A woman could be a better leader, but I do think nature strongly favors men in that department, much like physical strength and build. That’s personal opinion. I reconcile men leading because the family and the congregation is not a democracy or based on the culture and feelings of the members. It is theocratic. We have great freedom to express our individuality, but not to the extent of disobeying. When we do that we loose God’s protection and blessing.

So let’s say we get a woman that meets all of the qualifications for an elder except for her sex. The moment we decide to make her an elder we cease functioning as Christians and have started to form a man-made religion. God’s spirit no longer works with us and our religion becomes vain. On the other hand this same woman can be a very effective preacher and teacher and a strong member of the congregation without overstepping boundaries. Her talents and energies are not wasted. God is happy. The congregation is happy.

quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

But... that's exactly the question I asked in the first place. :confused: ...It's times like this that I really have to wonder whether you actually read what we write or just skim it.
Sorry man. I read it all. Here I was thinking I was pretty smart for coming up with a better question. It’s kinda funny. You have your answer though. All things considered, I think the world is in worse shape than ever.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, July 12 2007 18:48 Profile #49
Drew, you’re not understanding my question. You made two points that I’d like you to clarify.

1) Men being the head of the family and taking the lead in the congregation stemming from a “baseless distinction”
2) And that it was based on cultural considerations not Jesus teachings.

What are you calling “baseless” and why? Why do you say Christian teachings are based on culture and not Jesus teachings?

When I said it’s not allowed I meant Biblically and took it for granted that you knew.

(1 Timothy 2:11, 12) Let a woman learn in silence with full submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence.

All rules for Christian living come from the Bible. I mentioned physical differences not to draw conclusions about authority, but only to point out that there are differences and that we’re not equal in every way. Sometimes I think I look like a mule (no jokes please) to my wife because she simply looks at me when something heavy is to be moved or carried, as if to say, “you know whos job this is.” I don’t feel belittled because she expects me to do grunt work or even question it. That’s what my size and strength are for. Her strengths lie in other places and she uses those for our benefit.

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Sarcasmon:

Like Drew's wife, mine would have a few pretty choice words with me if I ever tried to pull that on her.
Of course she would! You aren’t a Christian man and she’s not a Christian woman. Your views are more influenced by modern western values. A lot of those values are good, especially in this country. Marriages can do ok using them, especially if you have good upbringing and similar backgrounds. It’s just a little more difficult. My wife and I were married before we were Christians and we did ok.

quote:
Originally written by The Almighty Do-er of Stuff:

MORE THAN ONE LEADER IS BAD
Very funny…Unless you’re seriously making a point, in which case it’s still funny, but poorly made.

quote:
Originally written by Frolicking in Postaroni General:

a man or a woman cannot and must not be judged in any way simply based on sex.
I agree.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, July 12 2007 11:58 Profile #44
quote:
Originally written by Drew:

This pretty much addresses my assertion of patriarchy in Christianity, which I think is a bad thing, because I think it is a baseless distinction arising more from (as SoT mentioned above) cultural considerations around the time passages in the New Testament were drafted than Jesus' underlying message.
Let's explore this. You're a man of logic so before you hold a belief you'll have proof. What proof do you have that what you call patriarchy in Christianity is based on cultural considerations and not natural law?

Physical nature itself tells us that men and women are different and have different roles in the family arrangement. We now know that our brains even work differently (as if we needed science to tell us that). It's clear to me that when the roles are dictated by the Bible, which says that men and women are complementary but different pieces of a whole marriages are stronger than when the values of this society are followed. Just like two brains on one body or two steering wheels in a car, two leaders in a family would be bad. One leader who does not abuse his authority, loves his wife, considers her first, and follows Jesus' example in self-sacrifice and serving others works beautifully. Women and men are both happy and satisfied. I see it and live it. That's the kind of logic and proof that I used when I selected the religion I wanted to be a part of. If it wasn't practical I wouldn't go for it.

I really do understand where you all are coming from though.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, July 12 2007 10:10 Profile #42
quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

Stillness evidently takes the 'neither male nor female' passage rather narrowly, insisting that the equality it prescribes is limited to one specific sense. He takes the 'wives obey' as a straightforward prescription of a universal ideal.
SoT, have you read the section of scripture this quote occurs in? In particular verses 15-29 of the third chapter of Galatians. It’s discussing the covenant God made with Abraham that all the nations would be blessed by means of his seed. There’s also discussion of the law given to Jews as a continuation of this covenant being what would prepare them to receive the seed, who’d be none other than Jesus. The conclusion is that this seed would not just be Jesus, but Christians unified with Jesus with God showing no regard to race, sex, or social status in his choosing.

“YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”

There’s nothing here that contradicts or changes the headship arrangement. I honestly can’t see where you get any inkling that it does. If you feel that arrangement doesn’t apply to us in this society, I actually understand that. But neither this scripture, nor any others support that view. I take them all as they're written and see no conflict whatsoever.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, July 12 2007 10:06 Profile #41
quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

the percentage of people who lived in abject poverty, say, a thousand years ago was nearly 100%.
Prove this. I’m intrigued by this statement. A thousand years ago Native Americans dominated this landscape. I don’t think they lived in abject poverty. In fact I think they were better off in general. I doubt that Africans lived in abject poverty either. I’m not sure about Eurasia, but I’d definitely like to see your information on this.

quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Sarcasmon:

Please, cite that study on war casualties. It is something I've been interested in about this conversation since it began.
I have. http://www.worldwatch.org/node/1650

I missed the NPR story so I can’t comment on it. I think you all are missing my point. It’s probably mostly because I’m withholding what I really think from you all because I don’t want to get into a long debate and I doubt anyone here would accept it.

I’ll say this and try to be a bit more clear: My point is not that war or immorality is a result of religious decline. Some religion is bad. I’m saying that wars in these times have become more intense and have taken a darker tone (e.g. amount of dead, civilian deaths, genocide because certain races are unfit to live, ability to wipe humanity off the face of the planet). Morality has also declined. There is a connection, not a direct correlation, between those things and lack of religious faith. If you can’t see it I guess I’m not really prepared to make it more clear by getting into a deep Biblical discussion on the details of the connection. Sorry if I got anyone worked up to be let down. I spent humungous chunks of time in Biblical discussions in forums when I became a Christian and had very little to show for it. I suspect that you all aren’t really interested in that sort of thing anyway.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, July 12 2007 10:04 Profile #40
quote:
Originally written by Drew:

if Christianity gives you every reason to consider men and women equal, then why do so many Christian traditions bar women from being pastors, priests, etc.?
God’s arrangement in the congregation and the family is the same – men take the lead. But even then not all men qualify. That doesn’t mean that those men aren’t equal, they simply don’t qualify to take the lead in the congregation. The same goes for women.

In the Bible there were prophetesses and God used Christian women as much as men on the day when 3000 were baptized and after. In my faith women do preach and are actually responsible for most of the preaching. They just don’t have positions of headship because it not allowed.

Somehow this translates to inequality in your eyes and that is not so. It is like a body that has different parts that work together harmoniously. “There should be no division in the body, but that its members should have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the other members suffer with it; or if a member is glorified, all the other members rejoice with it.” (1 Corinthians 12:25, 26) That how we see it.

quote:
when has society ever conformed to the moral standards he claims as Christian?
Excellent Drew! It never has. I think you’re going to get it.

quote:
What is evident is that your viewpoint is completely skewed to the notion that your interpretation of your faith is absolutely correct
Do you think you are incorrect? What do you think you are incorrect on? Is your viewpoint skewed?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, July 12 2007 10:01 Profile #39
quote:
Originally written by jg.faust:

You neglect the possibility that Christ existed - historically - and was a normal, mortal human.
No, I included that. He would have just been Jesus, not God’s Christ. That wouldn’t account for the growth of the Christian congregation, which was truly founded after the death of it’s leader based on very public miracles such as the resurrection of Lazarus who was dead for four days and the speaking in tongues which caused 3000 foreigners to convert and be baptized on the first day in Jerusalem.

quote:
The advance of technology leading to greater suffering and death in war is an explanation, not an excuse.
You all tell me we’re at the height of civilization. I say, then why is it so violent. More people and more ingenious ways to kill them is not an acceptable. I say, why is the basic unit of civilization in trouble. More freedom for women to get out of bad relationships is a poor. Why are they in bad relationships? Whatever the reason it doesn’t change the fact that something like 45% of marriages will end in 15 years. I don’t have hard figures for what that rate looks like in marriages where both mates follow the Bible. My faith is strict on that but it is small, with only about 6.5 million - 1 million of those in the States. It doesn’t keep track of marriage and divorce rates. I know that it’s nowhere near that high though. There was actually a study done in Russia that found it to be less than 5% compared with 40% in the general populace. In Germany it’s 4.9%. I would guess that would just about correspond to what I see in the States.

http://www.jw-media.org/region/europe/russia/english/releases/religious_freedom/rus_e030523.htm

When I mentioned genocide, I recognized that it has always happened. I had written more but took it out and forgot to add it back in. Have we ever seen the “your race is inferior and unclean” variety? I don’t remember that from history. I remember religion, land, power, etc, but not that.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, July 12 2007 10:00 Profile #38
I'm 31, went away college when I was 18, have had four jobs before the one I have now which is my own business, have been married for seven years, was born and raised in the hood, live in the burbs (where my neighbors are prejudiced against my race), I haven't been out of the country except Canada and the Bahamas, I am a minister and come in contact with many people from all over the world with all different sorts of religions and cultures.

I was raised as a Christian, but abandoned my faith in my late teeange years and early 20's and even doubted the existence of God. It was actually in college studying physics that I had a bit of a turning around when I saw the orderliness of the universe, but most importantly started to realize the depth to which we can peer into it, understand it, and shape it. I then knew that we were designed for the universe or it for us. I started to search for God and came back to the faith of my mother because it is logical, answered all the questions I had about life, is practical, I saw God's direction in it, and saw that it contained prophecy that no man could have been responsible for. I have family from different branches of Christendom and Islam, but their faith is either illogical to me, lacks any real power in their lives, or both. I'm not a world traveler and explorer, but I don't think I'm sheltered.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, July 12 2007 09:59 Profile #37
I always see people yell, "Don't double post" but I've got a lot to say and don't want it all jumbled together so I'm prepared for the attacks. :(
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Thursday, July 12 2007 05:59 Profile #28
If there was never a Christ then there certainly is not now. But, if there was then he is still here. So I guess the question is “Is the God of the Bible real.” Christian morals are based on him and his son. They have been from the start and they are now. God is absolute, unchanging, the ultimate reality. What he requires from his worshippers is not affected popular thought. In fact, popular thought is the wrong way since the road to destruction is broad and spacious and the road to life is cramped and narrow with few finding it. If God is not real then of course “Christian” can be whatever you want it to be and has no real meaning.

“Our technology has improved and there are more people to kill” is not acceptable as an excuse for “the best times in history” when 57 times as many people were killed than in the centuries before it if you average them out. Maybe for you it’s OK, not for me. It’s also not OK to keep seeing genocide rear it’s head.

” Since 1989, 97 out of 103 armed conflicts were internal. And 70 percent of all war casualties since World War II have been civilians, rising to more than 90 percent in the 1990s.”

This is from the same study that I quoted from earlier. This is also quite troubling. And it’s not like we’re learning, because at this very moment the country that I live in is engaged in this very type of war where anywhere from 70-100,000 (and possible more) civilians have died. In the country in which I live there is slavery. In the area I live in, Detroit, living standards are decreasing for the majority. The middle class and the poor are getting poorer. Children are having sex at a younger age, getting pregnant, diseases, are emotionally ill-equipped, and are more violent than in just a few decades ago. More people divorce than stay married. And these are just a handful of the problems.

Thuryl asked a fairly good question, would I rather be me or a random person in some other time. The answer to that is “me.” My faith gives me focus and hope, and based off of Jesus prophecies I think there may be a chance for me to see the end of this system. Also I’m rich based on global standards. I’m fairly healthy. And I’m in a relatively safe pocket of the globe.

A better question would have been:

Would you rather be a random person now or a random person some other time?

I would absolutely choose another time for quality of life. I somehow think you all are looking at a middle/upperclass life in America and thinking that translates to average in the world. That’s nowhere near accurate. Half of the population lives on less than 2 bucks a day. So please answer my question and tell me why you answer.

quote:
Originally written by Zebranky:

Cut the words however you want, you cannot deny that the Bible treats men and women differently.
So does nature. Men and women are different, physically and mentally. The Christian standard gives me an absolute reason to view women as equals. Both men and women have dignified roles. And there is moral interchangeability. The things that are considered moral for women are the same as with men.

In this culture they are not equal. It preaches equality, but women are still abused, enslaved, and treated like sex objects.

quote:
Originally written by Student of Trinity:

For example, does one interpret 'wives obey your husbands' in the light of 'there is now in Christ neither male nor female, free nor slave, Jew nor Greek'? Or does the light shine in the opposite direction? Which verse has the greater contextual weight?
SoT, you see conflict where there is none. This doesn’t literally mean that there is no difference between men and women or a free person and a slave. This means that God does not discriminate on who he selects to be unified with Christ. Women are chosen just like men are and Gentiles just like Jews. This does not mean that a man is not obligated to care for and serve his family or that he is no longer the head of it.

If I looked at the family in our society and saw it thriving by applying modern views I would have nothing to say. It is not though. That's the funny thing about people. Sometimes we can be so bent on our own way being right that we will miss the obvious. Divorce rates are at their "peak" - that's for sure. That's a very strong indication that society is not as families are the basic unit of it. Families and marriages where Christian standards are applied have longevity and are happier, though. I know very many of them personally and am in one myself. Divorce still happens but it is much more rare. As I said before, you can tell a tree by the fruit it bears.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, July 11 2007 13:04 Profile #21
quote:
Originally written by Drew:

Christ could have been okay with, say, the War in Iraq and the deaths of all the innocent Muslims. Prove to me that he wasn't.
(The Bible I use distinguishes between singular and plural “you” with all caps).

Can a Christian retaliate to pay someone back for wrongdoing?

(Matthew 5:44, 45) However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous.

(1 Thessalonians 5:15) See that no one renders injury for injury to anyone else, but always pursue what is good toward one another and to all others.

How did Jesus display this principle?

(1 Peter 2:23) When he was being reviled, he did not go reviling in return. When he was suffering, he did not go threatening, but kept on committing himself to the one who judges righteously.

Can a Christian kill other Christians just because they are from another country?

(John 13:34, 35) “I am giving YOU a new commandment, that YOU love one another; just as I have loved YOU, that YOU also love one another. By this all will know that YOU are my disciples, if YOU have love among yourselves.”

Can a Christian bear arms to attack his enemies?

(Matthew 26:51-53) But, look! one of those with Jesus reached out his hand and drew his sword and struck the slave of the high priest and took off his ear. Then Jesus said to him: “Return your sword to its place, for all those who take the sword will perish by the sword. Or do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father to supply me at this moment more than twelve legions of angels?”

(John 18:36) Jesus answered: “My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my kingdom is not from this source.”

Speaking of his disciples…
(John 17:15, 16) “I request you, not to take them out of the world, but to watch over them because of the wicked one. They are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.”

Can a person be a Christian without applying these laws and principles?

(Matthew 7:21-23) “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.”

quote:
You identified that God values woman for their usefulness to the family; not necessarily as individuals. That's pretty denegrating. So is Paul's instruction that wives should obey their husbands.
I did not do that. You’re making things up. How is telling wives to obey their husbands denegrading? I think you’re assuming some demigod marching around the house yelling out orders. That is not the divine way. Jesus follows God, husbands obey Jesus, wives obey their husbands, children obey their parents. That is divine order and no one is denegraded because they have to obey. Headship is not harsh and tyrannical in God’s arrangement.

(Ephesians 5:25, 28, 29) “Husbands, continue loving YOUR wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation and delivered up himself for it…
In this way husbands ought to be loving their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself, for no man ever hated his own flesh; but he feeds and cherishes it, as the Christ also does the congregation.”

The husband, although having headship over his wife and children, has to have a powerful love for his wife so that he cherishes her and is willing to deliver himself up for her as Jesus did. That doesn’t make him more important or better. It is simply the way God has arranged for order. Corporations select presidents and directors, not because they are better than anyone else but because organizations need leadership. The president may very well not be the smartest or most valuable player on the team, but structure is necessary nonetheless. Do you obey the government? Is that denegrading to you? Why? Is George Bush a better and smarter person than you are?

You speak of patriarchies with disdain, so I thought I’d look it up to see what the accepted definition is. What I think of as a patriarchy is a social system in which the father/husband is the head of his household. The first definition on dictionary.com is this:

a form of social organization in which the father is the supreme authority in the family, clan, or tribe and descent is reckoned in the male line, with the children belonging to the father's clan or tribe.

I have a couple of problems with applying this definition to the Bible. The use of the word “supreme” and saying the children belong to the father’s clan. First God has always been the supreme authority for the households of faith from the very beginning. To illustrate this Abraham’s (the first person I think of when I hear “patriarch”) concubine and their son were causing problems in his household. Abraham’s wife kept telling Abraham to dismiss them, but he did not like that suggestion. So God says:

“Do not let anything that Sarah keeps saying to you be displeasing to you about the boy and about your slave girl. Listen to her voice, because it is by means of Isaac that what will be called your seed will be. And as for the son of the slave girl, I shall also constitute him a nation, because he is your offspring.”

First, Sarah felt free to keep expressing herself to her very powerful husband. And most importantly, God told Abraham to follow his wife’s instructions against his wishes and of course Abraham acquiesed. I think your view of things may not be what the Bible says and may have more to do with the abuse of womankind – something not sanctioned by God. Man and woman complete each other and are partners making a whole. The relationship is to be pleasant for both and governed by love and mutual respect.

quote:
Christian morality is nothing other than a rehashing and rebranding of older, fairly universal moral ideas
I pretty much agree with that, although I would say absolutely universal because they come from the creator of the universe.

quote:
with a patriarchal bent and the intent essentially that a body of priests, be it in the form of the Catholic Church, or charismatic Pastor Billy Joe Bob of Salvation Mega Bible Church can call the shots.
False. Christ calls the shots.

quote:
Historically, they've done a pretty poor job of calling the shots, too - see, e.g., the Crusades, justifying slavery, opposing interracial marriage,
None of these things has anything to do with Christianity. They’re human creations and institutions.

quote:
homosexuality, gay marriage
Above I listed a scripture where Jesus said he was no part of the world and prayed to God that his disciples would remain that way. Jesus did not get involved in the politics of his day, in fact he fled when people were so overwhelmed by his activity that they tried to crown him as king. Practice of homosexuality, like any fornication, is unacceptable in the Christian congregation. What the world does is up to them, though. A person imitating Jesus would keep their nose out of political affairs.

quote:
the notion that we are each free to live as we choose, provided that we do not unnecessarily infringe on the liberty of another.
These are Christian ideals! There’s hope for you yet.

(1 Corinthians 10:29) “Why should it be that my freedom is judged by another person’s conscience?”
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, July 11 2007 08:14 Profile #11
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Sarcasmon:

quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

I didn’t say that there weren’t large scale wars. I said there weren’t world wars. That was absolutely unprecedented. Technology played a great role in the wars, it always has. It didn’t make them world wars though. The Americas were discovered centuries before 1914, yet there were no world wars. If you don’t think there is anything else unique about them then check the civilian casualties.
quote:
Originally written by Stillness, 12 hours earlier:
Disregard for Human Life: In the past century more blood has been shed in wars than in the 1900 years prior to that. High regard for human life (which Jesus taught) would not allow for war. Is that arbitrary?
I think this is where I have a problem. You play fast and loose with hyperbolic "facts," and then backpedal and re-define your terms so that your "fact" can't be disproven. You know, it is okay to be wrong. I've been wrong, and I would wager that most everyone here has been wrong.
Jumpin, I’m not seeing your point on me being wrong and back-pedaling. Is it with the term “world war?” I reckon it’s a matter of relativity and semantics. Let’s say I’m wrong with my use of the term and bow before your rightness. That doesn’t change my points in the least bit.

quote:
Even your Golden Rule (as you claim to be a disciple of Christ, that makes it your rule) is suspect. It is a great maxim if you are trying to peacefully co-exist in a utopian landscape, but when applied universally it fails. This is a world of eat-or-be-eaten, and the long list of extinct species is titled "The Golden Rule."
Give me an instance where your animalistic view of life and humanity is better than Christ’s and mine, which is based off of love. What would the world be like if everyone viewed the world as you do? What would the world be like if everyone viewed it as Christ?

quote:
Originally written by Lenar:

1. Stillness, welcome to Spiderweb.
Thanks. I have found the gang here as you say: very blunt and lacking a bit of courtesy, but smart. And I have learned a great deal. This is why I stay.

quote:
And I am surprised, Stillness, that you have not recognized Romans 1:18-32 which, for those who don't feel like loking it up, states that the will and knowledge of God is ingrained into all men and his glory revealed through nature, etc.
Point is, you can be moral without being religious because mankind intrinsically knows right from wrong.
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

I said only that there was a link, not dependancy. We naturally have a conscience. It tends to go astray without proper guidance though. People start to set their own standards as it suits them. Hence the decline in morals we see.
I actually had in mind Romans 2:14, 15 which mentions the nations doing the things of the law by nature because it is written on their hearts. But I also had in mind Jeremiah 10:23 which says that man cannot direct his own steps. The truth of that is all to clear when one examines our history and sees that from near the very beginning “man has dominated man to his injury.” (Ecclesiastes 8:9)
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, July 11 2007 07:35 Profile #8
quote:
Originally written by Drew:

By that rationale, pretty much no one would be Christian. But that hasn't prevented heinous actions being carried out in Christ's name with the full sanction of those dictating what the scriptures really mean.
I now kill people in the name of Drew. Are you responsible for their deaths? That being said there are people who do not fight in wars and do everything in their power to be peaceable because they imitate Christ and obey him.

quote:
In asserting that a woman's role is vital in the family arrangement, you are marginalizing them. It's like saying "I put a high value on my car.
I also said I place a high value on human life. Do I marginalize humans and equate them to cars as well? No. You’re just reading into my words what you please.

quote:
That doesn't mean that he necessarily have a "traditional family," with mom barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen, obeying her husband like a good wife should per 2 Corinthians.
Again, I meant mother, father, children when I spoke of what we agreed on. Clearly I don’t think you agree with the Bible as you have made your sentiment on it quite plain. Neither 2 Corinthians nor any other scripture says women should be “barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen.” A good wife should obey her husband. The Bible also says that a good husband should honor his wife and love her like Jesus love his congregation to the extent that he gave his life for it. Jesus also served his his disciples. If a husband does not do this, the Bible is clear that God will not listen to his prayers. So is the man belittled because God’s attention is dependant on how he honors his wife and is willing to serve her to the point of giving his life? Why do I have to be willing to serve and give up my life just because I’m a man? And while we’re on the subject, why does the mother and not the father get to share the special bond with children that comes from carrying the child for 9 months and breastfeeding? Why can’t we be equal to women in that respect? Why does a person’s offspring have to honor and obey them to receive God’s favor? Am I less of a person than my mother just because she’s older and I came from her? From a biblical perspective this is vain questioning because divine order is what it is. Yet in terms of worth women and men are equal.

Your view of the Bible teachings on male-female relations is skewed.

quote:
As for the second point, it's flawed, because unlike water, you can't prove to me or anyone else - whatever they may choose to believe - that God is vital for life…anything coming from that source lacks credibility with me.
I’m not really aiming to prove God exists to you. I’m saying that Christian morality is the best thing for humanity and the more we deviate from it the worse off this planet is for it. The proof is in the pudding. In general the world is at it’s worst. I’m not talking about the fact that I can drink from any water fountain I please by law in this pocket of the globe. I’m talking about bad human relations in practice, the breakdown of the family unit, the mental and physical problems caused by extra/premarital sex, poverty, human suffering, etc. If the world was a better place I’d be with you. As it stands, it is not a better for establishing morality outside of the divine.

quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Define "world war."
A war affecting most of the larger nations and most of the world. I don’t want to focus on the world wars alone though, because my point was that the conflicts of the past century mark this period as unique. That can be seen from the fact that three times as many died as in the past 19 centuries. But if you want to focus on the world wars then look at the link to wikipedia and compare the lesser of the two to any other war you’d like by comparing the map that shows how much of the world was involved and the chart that has the numbers and see why any historical reference you can think of will say that WWI was unprecedented in scale and thus bears the title World War 1.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Life on Europa in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, July 11 2007 07:24 Profile #50
Frozen, you left out the part about why you seem to be hopeful.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Life on Europa in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Wednesday, July 11 2007 04:49 Profile #45
quote:
Originally written by wary wanderer:

Regardless of the discussion of negative and positive injunctions, the Torah's repeated statement that one should love one's neighbor as oneself used the positive framework before Christ lived.
Agreed. I should not have said it started with Christianity.

Catholics may view the pope as infallible, but that doesn't change the fact that Jesus disciples have to obey Jesus, regardless of what anyone else says. If they do not then by definition they are not his disciples.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Life on Europa in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, July 10 2007 23:01 Profile #42
It just so happens that I am learning Chinese and studying the culture. I am aware of Confucius which is why I know that he did not articulate the Golden Rule as Jesus did. What he said sounds similar, but is different. Look closer. Jesus requires positive actions of doing good to others. Confucius is a negative version of what Jesus said.

Christianity is not based on me, but on Christ. That is the common measuring line. He was very clear that many would claim to follow him and use his name to perform powerful works but would in actuality be lawless. He was also clear that his disciples should not fight. I can quote the relevant scriptures if you think I’m making stuff up.

I didn’t say that there weren’t large scale wars. I said there weren’t world wars. That was absolutely unprecedented. Technology played a great role in the wars, it always has. It didn’t make them world wars though. The Americas were discovered centuries before 1914, yet there were no world wars. If you don’t think there is anything else unique about them then check the civilian casualties.

Darwinistic thought influenced Marx and governments that were based off of his teachings. I meant exactly what I said.

It doesn’t matter if something is legally mandated if it still goes on. Or maybe you think the government doesn’t know about forced labor. No caste system?

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2000/usa/Rcedrg00-01.htm

“Blacks comprise 13 percent of the national population, but 30 percent of people arrested, 41 percent of people in jail, and 49 percent of those in prison…Thirteen percent of the black adult male population has lost the right to vote because of felony disenfranchisement laws.”

Do you think blacks are genetically more prone to criminal activity? If not, what do you think the problem is? I do think that some progress has been made in certain areas, but the full picture shows regress. I’m not blaming lack of religion for the whole thing. Some religion is bad. Every time I hear about female genital mutilation I want to vomit.

JS, I’ll find the book I got the information from and quote from it later.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Life on Europa in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, July 10 2007 20:44 Profile #36
Why, Shrodinger? Why is he so hopeful? What would that do for him? Is it just the excitement of discovering life elsewhere or something more?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Life on Europa in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, July 10 2007 20:21 Profile #34
If I say I am a law-abiding citizen and I sell illegal drugs, is my statement true? No. To be a law-abiding citizen one has to do more than claim that he is. He must actually obey the laws of his nation. Christ has laws. To be a Christian means you are actually a disciple of Christ. Simply saying you are does not make it so. This is one thing Jesus was extremely explicit on. A Christian waging war is like a Muslim that doesn’t believe in Allah. Christianity is not responsible for any wars, atrocities, or invasions. It’s impossible for it to be.

God places a high value on women. Their role is vital in the family arrangement. I don’t know what you mean by “hostile to the notion of women being equal to me.” Much is said about fathers, mothers and children, but that is not what I meant when I said you agreed. I was only speaking of the traditional family that you spoke of as ideal. And the Bible does not contradict itself.

You say the golden rule is age old and not originating with Christianity, please list the other source(s) that has that rule. You say that God is flawed as a source for absolute morality because people lack faith in him. That’s like saying water is bad because I don’t drink enough of it.

----------

Alo, Slavery has been around for quite awhile and is alive and well today. War has also been around for a bit. What happened in the last century was unique though. I agree that technology played a role in the ease of killing. But we had two world wars – absolutely unprecedented! That has nothing to do with technology. It was over world domination. Darwinistic thought, which teaches competition and advantage over others translating into survival and prosperity, heavily influenced the governments that were based off of Marx. These governments killed or allowed to die tens of millions of their own citizens. That certainly has to do with morals. I have read a quote supposedly from Stalin that says, “killing a million people is no different from mowing the lawn.” If he didn’t say it, he certainly lived it. Why should it be any different if grass is our evolutionary cousin?

I’m not saying morals alone are to blame, but there is a link. Racism, sexism, and intolerance are still alive and well too. That’s why a lot of folks have love/hate feelings towards the U.S. This country is supposed to be so concerned with human rights yet it tortures, bullies and abuses all over the world. I see no great advance in humanism whatsoever. I see a lot of violence everywhere. There are a bunch of broken families because of low opinion of marriage and lax morals regarding sexuality. AIDS is running rampant all over the world for the same reasons. Millions are dying, starving, and poor while the rich get richer and billions are spent on weapons and war.

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/23_16691.shtml

“Forced labor occurs in at least 90 cities across the United States… Slavery is a problem the public thinks we solved long ago, but, in fact, it's alive and well.”

-----------

Oh yeah, Jesus was an alien, sort of "You are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. You are from this world; I am not from this world." That's why I can picture a vastly different scheme for "life."
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Life on Europa in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, July 10 2007 10:35 Profile #25
Frozen Feet, you say life on Europa is highly likely. The reason you give is that if it's close enough to Earth it could sustain life. I follow that. How would the life get there though? Sustaining life and life beginning are two very different things. The chances of the later happening are extraordinarily low. You seem to hope there is life on Europa or elsewhere? Why? That's what I really want to know.

Kel, You asked why I think religion would be affected. It teaches God created life. As I mentioned before general evolution erodes people's faith in general - not everyone's. The scientific community would probably push the same conclusion that Randomizer would about life elsewhere. Many would accept that conclusion.

Drew, on the one hand you say "the "decline in morals" exposes the flaw in reliance on religious doctrine as their source." Then you say "is it surprising that an increasing lack of belief in the Church of Our Fathers would cause those individuals to question what the Church is saying?" How does the first follow from the second.

I'll be the first to say that a lot of what mainstream Christianity does and says is bad - it has been for quite a while. To the extent that it sticks to the Bible it is good though. To the extent that society deviates from that it is bad. You'll accept what it says about the family. But the rest you say is arbitrary. OK, let's take my first statement and see how arbitrary it is. I don't have to prove God you you, because you can tell a tree by the fruit it bears.

Disregard for Human Life: In the past century more blood has been shed in wars than in the 1900 years prior to that. High regard for human life (which Jesus taught) would not allow for war. Is that arbitrary?
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00
Life on Europa in General
Stillness
Lifecrafter
Member # 7723
 written Tuesday, July 10 2007 07:57 Profile #23
I initially meant the traditional definition SoT. Although finding a virus on Europa would be quite interesting. Your question is really why I started the thread though. What would life in outerspace do for you? Why are some scientists so eager to find it?

I said only that there was a link, not dependancy. We naturally have a conscience. It tends to go astray without proper guidance though. People start to set their own standards as it suits them. Hence the decline in morals we see. Increasing disregard for human life, lowering of sexual standards, breakdown of the family unit, lowering of standards of what is considered publically acceptable behavior, etc are all around us. I can see it in just a few decades of being around. I don't know how anyone could not see it. If you start talking about the past century then the difference is glaring.
Posts: 701 | Registered: Thursday, November 30 2006 08:00

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