Profile for Student of Trinity
| Field | Value |
|---|---|
| Displayed name | Student of Trinity |
| Member number | 3431 |
| Title | Electric Sheep One |
| Postcount | 3335 |
| Homepage | |
| Registered | Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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| Author | Recent posts |
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| Riddles & Brain Teasers in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Saturday, October 29 2005 03:16
Profile
Ah, that's right, only with three or more REMs is it obvious to all Ms that all Ms know that REMs exist. With only two REMs, each REM has to allow the possibility that the other sees no REMs and thus thinks there might be none. With 3 REMS: 1 all monks know that a REM exists; 2 all monks know point 1; BUT not all monks know point 2. The 3 REMs have to allow that there might be only two REMs, each of whom would have to allow that there might be just one REM, each of whom might might have to allow that there might be no REMs. So in general, for N REMs, we have N statements that hold before the tourist speaks: 0 a REM exists n all Monks know statement n-1, where 0<n<N. After the tourist speaks statement N holds ["all monks know statement N-1"], and only then. Thus the new information learned by the monks from the tourist's statement is statement N-1. What is still curious, perhaps, is that the tourist's statement actually is just 0; yet what it conveys to the monks is N-1. Evidently the monks use a logical calculus which infers N-1 from the premise 0. Yet this can't be quite right, for they do already know 0, except in a trivial case. So why is this still confusing? That is, can we explain clearly how the monks' logic distinguishes between 0 as already known by them all, and 0 as declared by the tourist? I think Thuryl is in the right direction in pointing out that the input from which the monks deduce statement N-1 is not just the statement 0, but rather the observation that all the monks have accepted statement 0. And yet this amplified input is just adding statement 1 to statement 0. And except in simple cases, statement 1 is also already known by the monks. Our effort to understand this problem is itself coming to resemble the problem, with its peculiar induction. This is perhaps not so surprising, given that solving the REM problem requires figuring out how the monks themselves ... solve the REM problem. [ Saturday, October 29, 2005 03:38: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Riddles & Brain Teasers in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Saturday, October 29 2005 01:04
Profile
I don't think it can quite be that, because if there are at least two red-eyed monks (REMs), then every other monk sees that all the REMs can see at least one REM. So no monk can suppose that any REM believes there are no REMs. [ Saturday, October 29, 2005 01:05: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Riddles & Brain Teasers in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, October 28 2005 23:36
Profile
I think we're getting somewhere, but ... can anyone give a succinct answer to the question, "Precisely what new information does the tourist convey to the monks?" Until that gets answered, I'd like to take up Alorael's observation that if you just stick with the induction argument all seems clear, but then if you force yourself to look at the problem from another perspective, such as my information question, you can be totally confused. One runs into this sort of thing all the time in physics, where you can find one way of looking at the problem, according to which everything is clear, but then from other perspectives it isn't clear at all. Or worse, from other perspectives it seems just as clear, but incompatibly different. In such cases, some people seem to have the idea that what you should do is find the clear perspective as fast as possible, then insist on it alone, declaring all other perspectives bad. Others (or to be more precise, me, because I haven't found too many other people that are like this to my degree) can't rest until they have clarified the problem from all known perspectives. People of the second type tend to be quite slow to understand anything, because they spend much of their time deliberately trying to confuse themselves. When at last they become unable to confuse themselves, however, they emerge with an unusually full understanding of the problem. The disappointing thing about this, though, is that when you understand something that thoroughly it always seems so simple that you just feel really dumb for not having understood it right away. If you happen to discuss this problem with someone who hasn't gone through all your grief, your clear explanations make them think you're a genius. If those same people encounter you while you're still confusing yourself with a perverse perspective on the problem, they think you're an idiot. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Riddles & Brain Teasers in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, October 28 2005 13:41
Profile
Sure, but you just dance around the thing that bothers me. Only with more than one red-eyed monk is anything about this whole puzzle less than obvious, so skip the single-red case. In the more-than-one-red-eyed case, what new info does the tourist provide? And would it be the same if one of the monks blurted out the same line? To put it another way: the monks do already know that at least one of them has red eyes. So this must not be precisely the new information conveyed to them by the tourist. What is the new information, then? -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Riddles & Brain Teasers in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, October 28 2005 13:03
Profile
Aran is of course right, but the point of my last question was to address specifically the apparent paradox that the tourist seems to convey no new information to the monks. Evidently the tourist actually somehow does inject new information into the system; but yet the direct content of the tourist's revelation may well be familiar to all the monks. So, uh, what's up with that? What might help, here: would it be the same if there were no tourist, but one night one of the monks can't stand the hypocrisy any longer, and spray paints the refectory walls with the message, "Some of us have red eyes!"? Now again one of the monks has written nothing but what all the monks already know. So how could this change anything? But if it can't, what's so different about the tourist? -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Mac v/s Pc in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, October 28 2005 12:50
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But OS/400 won't mind if you learn it. The porcupine ... :P -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Mac v/s Pc in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, October 28 2005 09:22
Profile
Gah, it's not so hard to learn a new OS. I've worked on vax stations, a few years of Solaris, a couple of years on Linux of various breeds, several years of Windows 98 and 2000, a little bit of Mac 8 and 9 and Windows XP, and now a lot of Mac OS X. It's not true that you have to be stuck with whatever you're used to. At least for now I like Macs not because they do anything important that Windows machines can't, but just because to me they seem prettier, both as an OS and as hardware. And since I spend an alarming fraction of my life in front of computer equipment, having nicer computers is a major quality of life issue. But it's really only since the flat panel iMacs and OS X that Macs have gotten good, as far as I'm concerned; I found the old machines and the Classic OS tolerable but nothing wonderful. Actually, I guess the ill-fated G4 Cube was the beginning of the new deal. Anyway, as everybody now knows, suddenly a few years ago everything Apple went from geek-chic at best to true cool. I told myself I should have bought stock, but did I listen, no. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Riddles & Brain Teasers in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, October 28 2005 00:01
Profile
Literally, "Besonderwagen" is just "special car". Needless to say, in German one must now think of some other name for this reasonable basic concept. As my knowledges of German history and the German language have not yet met, I am indebted to TM for saving me from a faux pas I might well have made at some point. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Riddles & Brain Teasers in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 23:55
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Urp; I have no idea why locomotives work that way, except that it must obviously be more efficient because railways are themselves ruthless engines of capitalism. Except perhaps on the island of Sodor; and even there, you can't help wondering whether they just don't show you what happens to engines that aren't Really Useful. One more thing I noticed about the monks problem: unlike other versions of the same puzzle, in which the entire problem is set up on day 0, in this case most of the situation has been going on for years, before the tourist arrives. Suppose there are at least two red-eyed monks; then every monk, including the red-eyed, has known for ages that at least one monk has red eyes. So it seems as though the tourist tells the monks nothing that they haven't all already known, for a long time, from observation. So why does the suicide calendar only start counting down when the outsider delivers this non-news? -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Riddles & Brain Teasers in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 05:23
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As a peace offering: modern diesel locomotives use diesel engines to drive electrical generators that power electric motors. Yay! -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Riddles & Brain Teasers in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 03:59
Profile
A famously mysterious line of Milton: "And that two handed engine by the door Stands ready to strike once, and strike no more." Possibly he meant some kind of ambiguous reference to both a clock and a headsman's axe, but it has never really been clear. The reference to the door just doesn't help; 'door' seems to be there just in order to rhyme. Some poems just never quite work, even if you're Milton. Anyway, archaically an engine can be pretty much any device. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Explore Mars now in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 01:50
Profile
Mars has little atmosphere because it is too small. But, at least according to current understanding, there are two factors at work in this. The most obvious one is that a smaller planet has weaker gravity and a lower escape velocity, so it is easier for gases to leave. But this is far from the whole story, because actually even the biggest planets will steadily lose atmosphere; just more slowly. Bigger planets stay hot longer, the same way baked potatoes stay hot longer than boiled eggs. So they remain volcanically active longer. And the gases released in volcanic eruptions replenish planetary atmospheres. This strikes me as bizarre, but apparently it is the currently accepted theory. I say 'apparently' because this is not my field, but it was in the fresh new textbook of the astronomy course I taught recently. Anyway, Earth and Venus are still hot enough to be geologically active, and Mars is thought not to be. It is felt that Titan may be geologically active because spinning in Saturn's gravity should exert continuous compression and stretching that heats it up. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Riddles & Brain Teasers in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 01:33
Profile
The puzzle as posed did stipulate that there were some red-eyed monks. I just think it's interesting to consider the possibility of none. It's an interesting feature of this puzzle, like the one about the prisoners, that it ignores realistic communication. The answer about 'Blaaaack' versus 'Black', for instance, would be perfectly good in reality; it's just not in the intended spirit of the puzzle. And here it would take monks who were awfully meticulous about an awfully broad interpretation of their vow of silence, never to indicate, by the faintest flicker of an eyelash, that some brothers were cursed. Hmmm. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Riddles & Brain Teasers in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 00:58
Profile
Suppose in fact there are no red-eyed monks. All the monks kill themselves on the very first night because the tourist lied. He lied in order to loot the monastery. For this crime he is cursed with red eyes. He doesn't care. Alternatively, so many white-eyed monks are trying to kill themselves that at least one is prevented by a brother monk who knows he has white eyes. He kills the tourist to avenge his brothers. For this crime he is cursed with red eyes. He doesn't know. [ Thursday, October 27, 2005 01:01: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Rhetorical Survey in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 00:51
Profile
Erika, you triad signature is a good example of what I call a small subset joke -- like calling a tiny pocketknife an h-bar. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Rhetorical Survey in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 13:24
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Is anything ever overweaning but pride? For that matter, is 'overweaning' ever used except to define 'hubris'? -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Riddles & Brain Teasers in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 07:20
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It was an electric car. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Riddles & Brain Teasers in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 13:26
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We've had several such topics. I owe nothing for I ate nothing. Yeh. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Explore Mars now in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 05:38
Profile
quote:Folks mostly came to the Americas to get themselves farms. That is, once they had made the arduous voyage to the New World, they could then support themselves with very little in the way of tools or capital. And they could hope, in the course of a few years, to build themselves much more comfortable lives than they could have anticipated in the old country. The only thing Mars shares with this story is the arduous voyage. If we do just need space, the northern and southern extremes of Earth, and the sea floors, are as underpopulated as Mars. But they are far easier both to reach and to colonize. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| ATTN ALL CULTISTS in Richard White Games | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 02:15
Profile
... but you really don't want to meet such a squiggle while playing Angband. See, ... can also be a neutral sentence-beginning trio of particles. [ Tuesday, October 25, 2005 02:20: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Good free full lenght games in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Monday, October 24 2005 11:54
Profile
ADOM (Ancient Domains of Mystery, the creation of a guy named Thomas Biskup) is a roguelike game. This means that its graphics are state of the art from 1975. They aren't just flat 2D; they're ASCII. Characters are just that. You fight letters and punctuation. On the plus side, ADOM is mind-bogglingly complex and has inspired a cult following. It is perhaps the most extremely geek activity currently offered by planet Earth. Even if I had the vast spans of free time required for it, I don't think I'd really get into it. I'm not quite geek enough. But I say that a bit wistfully. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Explore Mars now in General | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Sunday, October 23 2005 10:46
Profile
Pretty much any terrestrial planet is rich in iron. Iron is one of the more common elements in the universe, because the iron nucleus is the most stable of all. It is hard to think of anything that might exist on Mars that wouldn't be much cheaper to extract from Earth instead. Keep in mind that we are not actually anywhere near to running out of any substance on Earth; we are just running out of the most economically accessible forms of some stuff. After thinking about colonizing Mars for a couple of terms, in a course I was running once, this is the most plausible scenario I found. A small base is established for purely scientific reasons. With every returning mission it very slowly gets upgraded, until after a few decades or so it has become easier for people to stay there for years on end, than to ship back and forth to Earth more frequently. Gradually the average population of Mars rises, and a small society of long-term Martians develops. Assuming that by this time a very small community can actually be self-sustaining on Mars, some folks end up staying there more or less permanently. Once such a base Martian culture forms, I could envision a long term trend of slow growth. A small but steady influx of immigrants would be drawn to Mars because they liked the emerging Martian culture, whatever it was like. I don't think Mars would export anything much to Earth until it was developed enough to export things like science, software, and financial services. Until then it would be a weird cross between the Wild West and the French Riviera: a harsh frontier to which the travel costs were in the highest luxury range. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| ATTN ALL CULTISTS in Richard White Games | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 03:21
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Well, the first thing to determine is whether you want the real Richard White likeness, or the fake Richward White likeness which is to delude the unworthy masses. I'd go for the fake, if I were you, since no matter what you ask for, there's no way to be sure you're not getting the (or worse, a) fake. What kind of a secret order would we be, otherwise? In fact, you could just draw anything you wanted, and decide that as a member of the order in good standing, you had contributed the valued service of promulgating a new fake likeness to delude the unworthy masses. And this way you'd be a bit more sure you were really getting a fake. Not quite sure, of course, since the implants can kick in at any time, and it might be especially effective delusion of the unworthy masses, to have the real likeness of Richard White appear as a self-proclaimed fake. [ Tuesday, October 18, 2005 03:24: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| Galactic Core in Richard White Games | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 03:14
Profile
Is this Deathcruiser anywhere near as good as a Polycon Genocide Cruiser? You can pack those things with ten Folders, plus a whole lot more miscellaneous weaponry that really just serves as space ballast because the Folders are so deadly. Polycon is a great and free plug-in for Ambrosia Software's Escape Velocity: Nova. It's pretty much what you'd imagine getting if a thirteen-year-old kid who was totally blitzed on cheesy space opera happened to be rich enough to pay competent adults to program a game. If GC were a whiffleball, Polycon would be a water balloon, filled with naphtha. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
| RWG in Richard White Games | |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, October 18 2005 03:06
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Aw, shoot. I hate inescapable doom. Can't we get a second opinion here? Something along the lines of, "Inescapable doom? Heck, no! It's free beer!" -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |