Explore Mars now
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 05:26
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Unfortunately, even if you do feel like making more oxygen on Mars, the fact remains that your lungs would be found outside of your cadaver the moment you opened your mouth. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 05:38
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quote:Folks mostly came to the Americas to get themselves farms. That is, once they had made the arduous voyage to the New World, they could then support themselves with very little in the way of tools or capital. And they could hope, in the course of a few years, to build themselves much more comfortable lives than they could have anticipated in the old country. The only thing Mars shares with this story is the arduous voyage. If we do just need space, the northern and southern extremes of Earth, and the sea floors, are as underpopulated as Mars. But they are far easier both to reach and to colonize. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 10:34
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quote:The only reason explosive decompression is harmful is that it's, well, explosive (and even then, it's not as bad as some fiction makes it out to be). There's absolutely no danger in being gradually brought down to low pressure, since the pressure in your lungs will have a chance to equalise with atmospheric pressure. As far as I'm aware, one could quite easily survive at one-fifth of Earth's atmospheric pressure, assuming a pure oxygen atmosphere. The limiting factor, therefore, is the current lack of oxygen. Mars is larger than Titan, so in principle it seems as if it ought to be able to hold an atmosphere if we give it one. Of course, that requires getting half a dozen or so metric hecks of a lot of oxygen. [ Tuesday, October 25, 2005 10:35: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 10:52
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quote:As far as I'm aware, that would make life quite impossible. *this message sponsored by air liquide* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 11:11
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What's the pressure on the top of Everest? Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 32
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 11:36
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quote:The dangers of pure Oxygen. -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 11:58
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Um, the reason pure oxygen is dangerous at standard atmospheric pressure is because it's a higher partial pressure of oxygen than we've adapted to -- obviously, 100% oxygen at 1 atmosphere is 5 times the normal atmospheric partial pressure of oxygen. But 100% oxygen at 0.2 atmospheres is the same partial pressure of oxygen as we currently breathe, give or take. To put it another way, if you took all of the nitrogen out of Earth's atmosphere we'd still be able to breathe. The concentration of oxygen in air expressed as a percentage would rise from 21% to almost 100%, but the partial pressure of oxygen wouldn't change. To reiterate, the important thing to keep track of is partial pressure, not concentration. What matters is how much oxygen is there in absolute terms, not the degree to which it's mixed with other gases. [ Tuesday, October 25, 2005 12:01: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 12:09
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You seem to missing my point. Water = Life. Plants require nitrogen for Life. *this message sponsored by jean michel jarre* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5389
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 12:56
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quote:It's entirely true that people came to America to get farms, and that we could get more space here on Earth. That's not the point of going there - Mars is not on this planet and is part of taking a step towards other planets! It is also part of not staying home on Earth. On a side note, I'm firmly of the opinion that all the recent natural disasters, if they're anything besides just lots of natural disasters, represent a massive cosmic eviction notice, telling us that we should leave Earth. -------------------- Reports of my demise are extremely accurate. And I AM the clone Posts: 102 | Registered: Wednesday, January 12 2005 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 16:47
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Generally it's not about space, but about resources. The good news: the human growth rate peaked in 1968 and has since declined. This is largely due to urbanization and more "dense" living styles of interdependence that lead to children being more of a cost than a benefit. The growth rate continues to decline and is actually deccelerating. Most likely, it will stabilize at a certain point. Should trends continue, there is plenty of space on this planet. The bad news: because of urbanization, the global demand for energy (and hence resources) is increasing, and is actually accelerating. This shows no signs of slowing and will continue to accelerate, especially as the "third world" modernizes. This puts a strain on our energy resources. Although we have a lot of options, eventually, we will grow too big for this planet. We will need to start mining the asteroids and looking elsewhere. By that time, hopefully space travel will be fairly routine and colonization of the planets will not be some far-fetched task. quote:Although already somewhat covered, I wish to say a couple things. Hollywood exaggerates the effect of low pressure on a human being. If placed in a vacuum, your skin would start to expand and crack. The exposed blood would begin to boil, cooling you down. It would not take too long (probably thirty seconds or so), but you would probably die from freezing as the water molecules crystalize and rupture your cells. Generally, you can survive in any pressure/temperature condition where water can still be in the liquid phase, so long as you adjust slowly. Too low a pressure or too high a temperature, and your blood will boil, literally. Too high a pressure and too low a temperature, and you will freeze. [ Tuesday, October 25, 2005 16:54: Message edited by: *i ] -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, October 25 2005 21:44
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quote:Plants don't need atmospheric nitrogen, though -- in fact, without the aid of nitrogen-fixing bacteria, they can't use it (and not all plants live in close symbiosis with nitrogen fixers). Whether or not we put nitrogen in the atmosphere of Mars, it'd be necessary to import large quantities of nitrogen fertilisers from Earth, at least at first. *i - vacuum, as you know, is a very poor conductor of heat. I find it very unlikely that you could freeze to death in a vacuum in 30 seconds, broken skin or no -- and I'm not convinced your skin would break either. This site has interesting information on vacuum exposure in humans and animals. I haven't checked the sources it cites to confirm that they actually exist, but they sure sound legit. Seems like lack of oxygen would kill you long before cold or tissue damage did. [ Wednesday, October 26, 2005 00:24: Message edited by: Explode Thuryl Now ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 12:48
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quote:Vacuum does not conduct heat; it does radiate, but that is minimal. The freezing effect comes from the latent heat of vaporization of water...it takes energy to boil. Do the experiment with a beaker of water and pump out the air, the water will boil, and will quickly turn to solid ice. One of my favorite physics demonstrations. However, I agree it really does depend on how readily your skin breaks. The outward force is a lot, and we only need microtears to form for the effect to start. I'm not an expert on the toughness of skin, but it really depends on a lot of factors. I suspect a thinner person's skin would rupture before a more robust person's. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 14:06
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quote:In order to resist breakage, the skin and connective tissue only needs to be able to exert a force equal to the vapor pressure of water at body temperature (since we're trying to maintain enough pressure to keep our bodily fluids from evaporating). I'm not sure how much that is offhand, but it can't be that high. [ Wednesday, October 26, 2005 14:09: Message edited by: Explode Thuryl Now ] -------------------- My BoE Page Bandwagons are fun! Roots Hunted! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 15:14
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Doesn't all of this ignore the fact that a planet which had a 100% atmopsheric oxygen content would be continuously on fire? EDIT: Well, that and the fact that you'd need something to shield your soft tissues anyway; exposing your innards to 0.2atm conditions would hardly be a constructive activity (if it is 0.2atm - I recall it being closer to 0.05 or so), which would mean it'd be more economical to, assuming that the human body could withstand the low pressure if acclimatized (not 100% sure on that one), fit everyone with rebreathers or something. [ Wednesday, October 26, 2005 15:17: Message edited by: Belisarius ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 4
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 17:32
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...did you not listen to Thuryl before? "100% oxygen" does not take into account concentration. An atmosphere of 100% oxygen, for instance, could mean only one molecule of oxygen- hardly enough for serious burning. -------------------- 人 た ち を 燃 え る た め に 俺 は か れ ら に 火 を 上 げ る か ら 死 ん だ Posts: 6936 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 17:51
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Oxygen isn't flammable, although it is a necessary component of many combustion reactions. (If Oxygen were flammable, Earth's atmosphere would catch fire and disappear rather quickly.) The presence of a great deal of oxygen can make combustion more rapid and more explosive, but not more spontaneous or widespread. And, as Thuryl poined out and TM pointed out that Thuryl pointed out, pure oxygen doesn't mean pure, concentrated oxygen. —Alorael, who can't condone the creation of an oxygen atmosphere for the purpose of exploding Mars now. It would be slow and not very effective anyway. No, the only real option is to nuke Mars tomorrow! Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 17:53
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quote:Probably not. The atmosphere would be well above the upper flammable limit for the chemical reaction to proceed. Combustion may only occur between certain molar concentrations of oxygen. As far as skin tearing, it's difficult to analyze. I suspect that when a small tear occurs, the material of the skin will quickly fail. This is true of many materials with similar elastic properties. A "perfect skin" would probably be able to resist the effect, a damaged skin, would probably have growing tears. The skin being porous too makes the analysis extremely difficult. I suspect, however, these pores may collapse, making the skin stronger. To complicate matters more, not only do we have "mechanical" forces due to a massive pressure gradient, we also have a massive concentration gradient. A lot of what happens here depends on the behavior of the pores. If things start seeping out due to the concentration and pressure gradient, then we have problems. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power!! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Wednesday, October 26 2005 23:39
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If what you say about pressure holds true, small cuts would probably lead to skin cracks pretty readily: clots are not particularly tough to begin with. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 01:50
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Mars has little atmosphere because it is too small. But, at least according to current understanding, there are two factors at work in this. The most obvious one is that a smaller planet has weaker gravity and a lower escape velocity, so it is easier for gases to leave. But this is far from the whole story, because actually even the biggest planets will steadily lose atmosphere; just more slowly. Bigger planets stay hot longer, the same way baked potatoes stay hot longer than boiled eggs. So they remain volcanically active longer. And the gases released in volcanic eruptions replenish planetary atmospheres. This strikes me as bizarre, but apparently it is the currently accepted theory. I say 'apparently' because this is not my field, but it was in the fresh new textbook of the astronomy course I taught recently. Anyway, Earth and Venus are still hot enough to be geologically active, and Mars is thought not to be. It is felt that Titan may be geologically active because spinning in Saturn's gravity should exert continuous compression and stretching that heats it up. -------------------- It is not enough to discover how things seem to seem. We must discover how things really seem. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6426
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 04:27
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>before having a large and prosperous colony on >mars it would take years of terraforming and >the costs into that kinda technology would be >staggering At the rate our capabilities in biotechnology are progressing, it is very conceivable that we will be able to engineer organisms, (microorganism probably) that are designed to thrive on mars and alter the atmosphere and land to our needs. Technology akin to that seen in the geneforge games actually. Once designed, which doesn't have to be particularly costly or time consuming, we would only have to seed the planet and sit back for a few millenia. Almost all organisms rest on essentially the same biochemical basis, and it is quite possible that organisms can be designed in a 'modular' fashion, in which biochemical modules can simply be combined to yield a specific organism for a task. As very well illustrated in the geneforge games, this level of biotechnology can ofcourse also yield all kinds of dangerous organisms (diseases etc.), intentionally or not. Possibly, the same technology may also provide effective countermeasures. Also, it may take a long time, if ever, for society to accept this technology fully. I.e. if you design an organism from scratch, are you not 'playing god'? And would using intelligent vertebrates for slaves be acceptable (serviles, minds etc.)...? I really think biotechnology will get to that point sooner rather than later, and the geneforge games provide a surprisingly real picture of what the future holds in that respect and how society might react to it. -------------------- ----- "If a rocket goes up, who cares where it comes down." - Wernher von Braun Posts: 1 | Registered: Thursday, October 27 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 04:35
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quote:If they're not intelligent organisms, slave 'em, but treat them decently as well (you know, like how you would treat, say, a sheep dog). We already do that with non-intelligent organisms anyways. If they have intelligence, don't make them anymore. Any non-human creature with intelligence can be a threat to humans (as seen on Geneforge. Remebmer the takers?). [ Thursday, October 27, 2005 04:36: Message edited by: Eldibs ] -------------------- "We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box." "Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15 The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive. Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's Everybody should go to this site at least once. Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 04:57
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Um, Geneforge isn't real. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Skip to My Lou
Member # 40
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 06:01
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 -------------------- Take the Personality Test! INTJ 100% 75% 100% 44% Huzzah for the Masterminds! www.Keirsey.com for personality information. The Sloganizer! "Swing your Archmage Alex." Deep down, you wish you were a stick figure. Posts: 1629 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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FAQSELF
Member # 3
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written Thursday, October 27 2005 06:05
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quote:Atmospheric loss is by Jean's escape (gravity not holding the gases in) and is pretty minimal for most circumstances. It most affects hydrogen and helium, which are not the main constituents of most terrestrial planetary atmospheres. Impact ablation- driving off gases by impacts, and photochemistry are both more important. The latter is the probable reason why there's so little gaseous water on Mars- H2O + hv --> H2 + "O" where the H2 gas is lost by Jean's escape and the "O" reacts with surface rocks to form peroxides. *Random planetary science factoids brought to you by a Planetary Science TA* -------------------- A few cats short of a kitten pot pie... Radioactive cats have 18 half-lives. Check out a great source for information on Avernum 2, Nethergate, and Subterra: Zeviz's page. Finally, there's my Geneforge FAQ, Geneforge 2 FAQ, and Geneforge 3 FAQ. Posts: 2831 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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