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AuthorTopic: Good news!
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #50
Hmm. Cool.

I'm curious to see how that makes items more useful. The old system already let you use them in addition to a regular attack (8-3=5). I can think of various setups that preserve this advantage (like Exile's: 4-3>0) but none that increase it, unless the AP costs have changed significantly.

Edit: Or not. So if I understand DV correctly, we'll have:

Shaping/Combat - missile shaper
Shaping/Magic - standard shaper
Combat /Shaping - standard guardian
Combat /Magic - magic guardian
Magic /Combat - standard agent

The magic guardian should trump the standard guardian and, depending on how melee has been balanced and how Haste interacts with the new AP system, might trump the standard agent as well. Missile shapers also get better, especially if crystals get better, and get less annoying thanks to the new encumbrance system.

[ Saturday, October 21, 2006 22:18: Message edited by: Cake Glaahk ]

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Agent
Member # 2759
Profile Homepage #51
quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:

The main action point change is that you can now attack when you have any action points left.
Yes! Everyone in the street must have heard me cheer when I read that.

That removes the single thing that bugged me most about geneforge. Makes GF4 sound a lot closer to being the perfect game.

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"I can't read this thread with that image. But then, that's not a complaint." -Scorpius

Geneforge 4 stuff. Also, everything I know about Avernum | Avernum 2 | Avernum 3 | Avernum 4
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #52
Here I think I say only what anyone familiar with G1-3 could say, after reading Jeff's latest revelation (which as DV noted had a typo about which class got left out).

You can attack if you have even one half AP left. So melee is saved! Melee characters are no longer doomed to waste every first round just running up to things and breathing heavily. You can do the Charge of the Light Brigade with your Thahds, and clobber the enemy at the end. Conversely, your ranged attack creations lose their advantage of being immune to enemy melee for at least one round. So the balance between ranged and melee creations is tipped way back, and the frequently higher damage done by melee creatures makes it more roughly level. A whole class of strategies and tactics is suddenly relevant again.

I can perhaps add, however, that this isn't the only engine tweak in G4, and I am still sorting out what they all collectively mean. So far, though, I am finding that the game still works, and is fun.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #53
Yes, if I can get away with saying it with out violating the non disclosure agreement, swarming in melee with sheer numbers is a brutally effective tactic now. Pig piling somebody with a good old fashioned beat down from all sides can and will win you a fight. You Guardian types can finally lead your battle creations in to glorious toe to toe combat and prove you are right the only way it matters. Powerful hard hitting shock troops are a deciding force in pitched battles now, thahds, alphas, betas, all are more than cannon fodder now. Pretty much every creation has its place.

Violence really does solve everything. Woot! :D

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Apprentice
Member # 5672
Profile #54
I have got two questions about the upcoming game:

1. How does the experience system work? I.e. do you get less points if you fight with more creations, so that for fastest leveling up one should play the guardian type? Related to that, is the experience shared equally between the members of the group, or does the creature making the final kill get all?

2. A silly but a nice feature of Geneforge 3 was to lock the player in a remote closet somewhere and to have a fyora gathering all the items around without the crime being seen. Is the new system of picking up items different from the old one?
Posts: 48 | Registered: Tuesday, April 5 2005 07:00
Agent
Member # 6581
Profile Homepage #55
Nice questions. I hope that "robbery" will be still possible but more difficult, since it seems that the stealth is improved.

About the EXP: I think the old system is good. If you are more strong, you take less EXP from weak moster. I just hope that it will not happen the things in GF1: "You are too strong to take EXP from this foe."; is not fair! Even one point is important. I gained a level this way in GF3.

quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:

The main action point change is that you can now attack when you have any action points left.This makes combat far more different that you might think at first. Pods, spores and crystals are now much more useful. However, the enemy much more frequently gets a shot at you.
Finally the Guardian have the importanche he deserve! Anyway, I would like more hear a resulution about this:

You are in front of the enemy, with 8 AP. You attack, and the turn is finished. But in my opinion, it should be: 8-5=3 AP left! Of course, this new system is better than the one before. No more running-triks.

I think the last line put the Guardian and the Agent at the same level. :)

quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:

It's taken a bit of rebalancing, but I'm really happy with the change.
So do I.

quote:
Originally written by Spidweb:

The character type I left out was strong shaping, medium magic, weak combat. I liked it least of the six possibilities.
Do I understand well? There will be a stong meele character?

--

Meele. The base of combat. This should explicate my extreme support to the Guardian. For a real warrior, magic is like cheating. Except healing. :P

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Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #56
Two good clarifying questions:

Is base AP still 8?
Is there still the very odd discrepancy that you can use an item and then attack, but can't attack and then use an item, because attacking ends your turn if you have less than 5 AP left afterwards?

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #57
Originally by Delicious Vlish:
quote:
Violence really does solve everything. Woot! :D
Yes! Dikiyoba can't wait for the game to come out so that Dikiyoba can run around beating things up!
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #58
I think the experience division system is the same as previous Geneforges. Your characters divide experience evenly, but the more of them there are the more experience you get. One character might get 100 exp, two would get 90 each, three would get 80, and so on. I made up the numbers arbitrarily because I haven't paid any attention to the formula, but it goes something like that.

—Alorael, who still gets 8 AP except in special cases and who believes that your turn still ends with less than 5 AP. That said, he doesn't use items much so he's not actually sure if he's imagining this or remembering it.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 7472
Profile Homepage #59
Wow. That will make my clawbugs even deadlier.

Another implication of this is that the effects of stunning and slowing are both severely negated. The point of those statuses used to be that you couldn't fight back. Now that you can defend yourself while stunned or slowed, said statuses are no longer as dangerous as they once were.

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Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 3513
Profile Homepage #60
quote:
Originally written by Ghouloca:

Wow. That will make my clawbugs even deadlier.

Another implication of this is that the effects of stunning and slowing are both severely negated. The point of those statuses used to be that you couldn't fight back. Now that you can defend yourself while stunned or slowed, said statuses are no longer as dangerous as they once were.

This is true. If you can attack with any amount of AP, what do glaahks do for you?

Kekeke Plated Clawbug rush!

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Nobody appreciates me. It's all "Igor! Fetch some wine!" "Igor! Clean up this experiment!" or "Igor! Bury this in the garden, we're leaving town in 10 minutes!"

—Alorael, who tried to become a deivore once. The priest gave him a funny look after the third wafer.
Posts: 301 | Registered: Thursday, October 2 2003 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #61
I'm really not sure what they do for you, but what they do to you is not good.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #62
Stunning and slowing have both been changed quite a bit and in entirely different ways. Glaahks are still terrifying, and now they can always get to you and land that painful sting.

—Alorael, who thinks stunning was changed for the better and for the more difficult. That's a good thing, because stunning was rather broken before.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #63
I'll risk violating something and say I LOATHE spectres even more than before because of the new action point system.

Oh geeze, the torments of the damned.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #64
Actually with Jeff still adjusting the characters up until release everything that we beta testers know is out of date every few days. Still all the 5 types have differing abilities to shape creations.

To clarify the new system once you attack you usually can't do anything else. The exception is when hasted where you can attack and still do something else like use a crystal or pod, and attack again. Crystals, pods, spores, and rods are much more useful in this game because they only use 3 APs, however if you have less then 3 APs you can't use them.

The new balance makes melee characters much better because they can usually attack each round instead of waiting a turn after moving up to the target.

[ Sunday, October 22, 2006 18:27: Message edited by: Randomizer ]
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #65
And as someone else has already said, it makes battle creations far more useful. Combat isn't all about artillery fire anymore.

—Alorael, who briefly found himself in an extremely bizarre glass cannon mode with a squad of scout creations, a squad of bodyguard creations, and a squad of instant hot, cold, sharp, and acidic death in between. Then he relented and decided that maybe some more Endurance would be helpful.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #66
Scout creations?

Has the engine changed enough to make those -- well -- existant, let alone useful?

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #67
Cool. I hope so.

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #68
I've been doing very well with a shaper-like guy who for half the game has had only the highest tier creations he knew how to make, and only as many of these as he could afford. That meant one creation for a long stretch, but it was a killer. On the other hand, I can see how a larger group of less powerful creations would also be good. So there would seem to be quite a range of options here.
In many ways G4 feels like a whole new game in this respect. A lot of strategy has to be rethought.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #69
I'm not sure what you think I mean by scouts, but I definitely have high dexterity creatures fanned out ahead of me to see where the bad guys are lurking. Yes, it's possible to see them before they see you, but more importantly the dexterity allows my guys to run away first.

—Alorael, who eventually gave up on that and switched to SoT's strategy. Heavy hitters hit first, last, and best.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #70
Scouting is often a good idea now. But sometimes, if I'm too tired to creep forward carefully in combat mode with everybody, I just save and stroll ahead. Then somehow in the next incarnation I already know where things will be. I think of it as a precognition talent that my character's unusual experiences have conferred.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Apprentice
Member # 6559
Profile #71
Does the power shift from ranged attacks to melee hold for agent types vs guardian types? I suppose that would be fair (considering how much said balance was one-sided in GF2 & 3).
Posts: 27 | Registered: Thursday, December 15 2005 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #72
For me the verdict is still out on how strong Agent-types are, but I can say that a melee-heavy character who makes very few creations has been doing fine.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #73
You just need to be capable of surviving melee, which is the real trick.

But I am most pleased that melee is a LOT better now and it is a viable option. I believe it will even be so on torment...

Some times just sending in a squad of goons to beat the stuffing out of somebody just feels good. Sort of a "Hey Guido, hey Vinnie, go break that punk's legs" sort of moment.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Law Bringer
Member # 6785
Profile #74
I ran an agent type through the demo area without too much trouble. Then Jeff asked for more shaper types so I never got to see how powerful I could get.

Still a missle agent would be easy to run until you get near the end. Delicious Vlish's advice on how to run an agent works with a little shift in how you use spells and crystals.

I found a swarm of weak creations could be damaging if used properly.
Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00

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