New melee/archer options for A5
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Apprentice
Member # 6149
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written Friday, June 16 2006 08:58
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The spellcasters get all the cool options. Buffs and debuffs. Various types of damage. Single target vs. AoE. Warriors only get to shoot or bash. There need to be more options in A5. They should get a bunch of special techniques they can learn, but they have to expend mana to do them. You learn them much as you do spells, and increased level of ability results in more powerful effects. Some may dislike the use of mana, but I think this is easier to implement than some kind of stamina system, or Rage like in world of warcraft. These would be techniques, not spells, and so would not be affected by spellcraft. Possible new abilities: Melee: Charge: small mana cost, activate and click on a target within the distance you can move with your AP and you will run up to them and attack. You get a modest bonus to accuracy and damage, but suffer a defense penalty until your next turn. Trip: There is no real falling over in Avernum, but tripping someone could be represented by stunning them (costing them AP to get back up before they can move or attack). Multiple Strike: allows you to attack multiple opponents at the same time. Moderate mana cost, big penalty to to-hit, but higher levels of skill reduces this penalty. At skill level 1 you attack up to 2 opponents, higher skill levels let you attack more. Great Reach: Polearm only skill, and passive (no need to activate). Lets you take advantage of the greater length of polearms; you can attack any opponent 1 or 2 squares away. This plus Multiple Strike would make polearms nasty against groups, and help make up for the lack of a shield. Should be very expensive to learn, or better yet a quest reward. For bows: Rapid Fire: short-term buff, self only, moderate mana cost. The archer enters a state of highetened reflexes, and is able to take advantage of quick action to get multiple attacks like a melee character does. Stacks with quick action for this effect (if your quick action is 5 and the spell strength is 3, you get the effect of quick action 8). Multi-shot: small mana cost. You fire multiple arrows at once, at targets near your main target (like lightning spray). If no secondary targets are nearby, the spell is wasted. Big hit to accuracy; higher skill reduces the penalty and lets you fire more arrows at once. Just some ideas. Melee/archery gets boring after a while, and could use some new toys to spice things up. [ Friday, June 16, 2006 09:02: Message edited by: Dunbar42 ] Posts: 18 | Registered: Monday, July 25 2005 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, June 16 2006 09:06
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You know, that's a good idea, trying to make melee more interesting. I'd go for a stamina system, personally, because the skills that add to manna aren't the same skills that one would want a warrior to train in. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, June 16 2006 12:24
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Some move in this direction would seem good to me, but I wouldn't want to go so far as to give warriors just as big a palette of options as spellcasters. It's okay to have a somewhat simpler class to play. I'd rather have just a few options that play well, than a long list of exotic combat moves that are obviously just there to keep up with the spell-casting Joneses. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Friday, June 16 2006 12:54
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I do not think combat was the point of Avernum 4. This isn't Diablo 2. Warriors and archers are already powerful enough. Giving them special abilities without reducing their other aspects will make them much more boring to play. At the same time, giving warriors and archers special abilities would basically make them melee mages, and unless Jeff boosted magic considerably, no one would have any real reason to play mages anymore. Rather than special abilities, I'd suggest adding extra skills, like assassination, for more micromanaging. Adding skills like "Stunning Blow," (+1% chance, per point, to stun an enemy for 1-3 rounds, etc.) would give a larger variety of warriors and archers to make. Half the fun of making a party is watching them grow and fulfill their positions. A game becomes more interesting the moment more positions can be filled. Mages and priests would still get a diverse spell group, and warriors and archers would get a diverse set of skills to choose from. EDIT: By the way, if warriors and archers could support and buff themselves, the Priest's supporting role would become obsolete. [ Friday, June 16, 2006 12:55: Message edited by: Enraged Slith ] Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, June 16 2006 13:04
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I don't really want more complicated combat. I'd rather have more complicated AI and maybe a few more situations with interesting terrain and enemies that require tactics. I don't think hacking and slashing is a failure in Avernum at all and I would be very put out with Jeff for making me select abilities constantly. Besides, it's the fighting shtick. Mages get the cool spells and fighters get the cool toys. Don't mess with that! —Alorael, who also suspects that the small number of abilities helps balance immensely. Either combat tricks would be essentially meaningless or they would make all fighting just a matter of finding the right tricks to make the enemies trivial. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 5302
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written Friday, June 16 2006 13:13
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quote:Um...didn't Vogel say something along the lines of "I wanted to make a combat game?" Posts: 70 | Registered: Sunday, December 19 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7228
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written Friday, June 16 2006 15:01
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quote:Not necessarily. You could have skills that serve as adjustments of the standard attack, or alternatives. Like... Spear Spin: Skip action this turn, enemies have -30% penalties to accuracy and damage against the character this turn. Pole Bash: Bonus 25% accuracy, 25% chance of stun, 50% damage. Wild Swing: Bonus 20% damage, -25% accuracy, 5% chance of stun. Blade Flurry: Attack twice, 50% damage per hit, increases to 4 hits if Quick Action activates. Focused Shot: Double damage and 100% accuracy, but attack happens next turn. Spread Shot: 10% chance of dealing 10% damage to enemies in a 3 space radius, 80% damage to target, -20% accuracy. Or such. A small handful of abilities that aren't really any better than the standard attack, but would have their uses in specific situations. -------------------- We all have our crushes. We all have our unrequited loves. They don't make you special. They only make you more ordinary. Posts: 11 | Registered: Friday, June 16 2006 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Friday, June 16 2006 15:29
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quote:This is exactly my feeling. There already was too much focus on combat and graphics engine in A4. Continuing down that path would cause even more disappointment for people who enjoy the RP part of CRPGs. quote:This is exactly the problem: either these abilities would be so weak that they are a waste of time, or they'd be essential to winning, in which case fighters would just become mages with a different name. PS These ideas could work better in Geneforge, where the player controls a single character, rather than an entire party, so it's more important to have a good balance among the classes than to have a variety of roles within the party. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Friday, June 16 2006 15:53
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Originally by Zeviz: quote:Especially if the Guardian had an easy time getting/raising these stats and the Agent had a more difficult time. And it would make the battle creations more interesting as well if they had multiple attack types. But Dikiyoba likes the Avernum's melee system as it is. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7228
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written Friday, June 16 2006 15:55
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quote:How would they be a waste of time, or turn fighters into mages? Look at, for example, tabletop RPGs. In those, fighters have more options than just "Attack blindly." There are active abilities that cost nothing to use, but add bonuses and penalties. Not skills that are just passively working in the background, but things you choose to do. Not spells that cost mana, energy points, or per diem uses, just variations on the standard attack the characters can perform. They're not better than the standard attack - they do less damage, or are less likely to hit. At the same time, they're not worse - they hit more times, or give a small chance to knockout or paralyze an enemy. You could open up new strategies like this - a fighter who clocks enemies so the mage or archer can deal the real damage - while still leaving the standard fighters perfectly viable. quote:Why can't fighters have a few minor alternate forms of attack? It's not like I was suggesting spells or anything, I just gave some things that, really, are the sort of things melee and ranged fighters are usually expected to be able to perform in tabletop RPGs. Rather than just renamed mage spells, or abilities that are useless, you give the fighter a choice of a few very similar things to do to aid the party. Nothing game-breaking, and nothing pointless, I thought. -------------------- We all have our crushes. We all have our unrequited loves. They don't make you special. They only make you more ordinary. Posts: 11 | Registered: Friday, June 16 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7229
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written Friday, June 16 2006 16:13
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quote:Okay... I joined this forum _just_ to say this, although I'll probably stick around. Yes, Geneforge allows you to just let the computer control the rest of the party and only lead your main. This is generally a BAD IDEA. It's possible to fight much more effectively if you lead your entire party. You can more effectively execute strategies and divide or concentrate your force if you direct your creations. (Or recruitable PC companions, in 3) And if you're actually using combat mode to avoid combat--it can really help when you're attempting to use stealth--being able to control your creations/allies is essential if you don't want to just absorb/dismiss them for the period. [ Friday, June 16, 2006 16:24: Message edited by: Nezumi ] Posts: 2 | Registered: Friday, June 16 2006 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Friday, June 16 2006 16:21
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I think Zeviz was referring to the fact that you can play GF without any creations at all. Nevertheless, welcome to Spiderweb! Leave your sanity at the door! I feel like such a tool for saying this! -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7229
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written Friday, June 16 2006 16:27
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quote:I considered another alternative, as did a friend--that he meant you can't customize the creations in the same way or to the same degree as the main. But in a topic about options in combat, that seemed rather odd. And you can indeed play without creations. In fact, if you're playing an agent, you're quite likely to do so, or only have a few wimpy back-up ones. Their initial shaping skills are abysmal, and raising them is prohibitively expensive. You can use canisters/skill books/items/skill trainers... but those have their own probems inherent. EDIT: Sorry about my babbling. I've been playing Spiderweb Software games off and on since the original Exile, but the Geneforge series is what most caught my interest, so I tend to talk about it when given the chance. [ Friday, June 16, 2006 16:29: Message edited by: Nezumi ] Posts: 2 | Registered: Friday, June 16 2006 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Friday, June 16 2006 16:28
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Cronocke, the main point of my post was that Spiderweb games are programmed and designed by a single person, so the more time he spends tweaking the engine, the less time he has to make a good story, as we saw with A4. Jeff probably could implement these skills and balance them so that they are useful, but not overpowered. However, the time he spends doing that is the time he doesn't spend improving other aspects of the game, and I think combat system is fine already, unlike some other important aspects. quote:To clarify, I didn't mean to imply that I always let AI control my creations. What I meant was that in Geneforge, your character is a single person who leads his creations/allies, while in Avernum you control a group of up to 4 individuals, each of whom has all character attributes (as opposed to Geneforge creations/allies who have just 4 base attributes). -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7228
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written Friday, June 16 2006 17:01
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quote:The combat system is fine, I do agree with you. However, there are aspects of earlier Avernum games that are missing from this one, and aspects of Geneforge that were cut to make room. For example, in Avernum 1-3 (and Nethergate) there were abilities you could use both in and out of battle, like calling a divine wraith to aid you, or going into a combat frenzy. In Geneforge 1-3, there are 2 extra classes of spells you can cast. All the hard work has been done transforming the Geneforge world into the Avernum world, now there's just some tweaking and editing to be done. So why not add fighter/archer-centric abilities to make up for the unique abilities that made some of the character traits so appealing? Besides, the topic is ultimately about things you want to see in Avernum 5, not things you expect to see. I expect him to do more tweaking on the issues we all agree on. I want him to put in a little extra effort in special abilities and the like... but I don't expect that. -------------------- We all have our crushes. We all have our unrequited loves. They don't make you special. They only make you more ordinary. Posts: 11 | Registered: Friday, June 16 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Friday, June 16 2006 17:43
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Some of these ideas like multiple strikes are available as special skills. In A4 it is hard to get the prerequisites to get the best like riposte, lethal blow, etc. Making them easier to get would be the easiest way to implement them. I'd like to see a more intelligent AI for torment. Not having the monsters shift their target each round would help. Having melee attacking monsters retreat around corners so you have to expend APs to chase them instead of them running up and die. Monsters cheating in picking the attack type that will do the most damage by knowing your resistances and armor. Going after your spellcasters and healers first (the weakest links). Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3933
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written Saturday, June 17 2006 00:36
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you guys are so conservative. imo, the combat in the later avernum games tend to become a pointless hacking & slashing that really gets on my nerves. it gets so much on my nerves ill never buy a4, and dont play the earlier ones too often anymore. to add some abilities to melee and archery would do an immense good as i see it, since a) combat would be a bit more interesting and b) one wouldnt have to spend all that much time fighting and could concentrate more on the rpg-part of the game. it was a rpg game once, you know. -------------------- OH MY GOD IT'S THE FUNKY ****!!! Posts: 425 | Registered: Wednesday, January 28 2004 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7195
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written Saturday, June 17 2006 01:37
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I very much agree with Rent-an_ihrno, coz I think that what makes Spiderweb games so cool is the plot ... On the other hand in a game like Geneforge the combat is also, for me, never boring, just coz you have a whole lot of creations with numerous abilities (not just spellcasting) that can make the fights really interesting and a lot less (or at least slower to become) repetetive. Well, I know ... some might say that a fighter can use different swords etc. for different fights, but it's just not the same; and furthermore it costs AP. And to those to whom special abilities would pose boring searching for that correct tactic and so on ... NOONE SAID YOU MUST!!! USE THEM!! And to conclude, I'd also like to say that these (and I believe also some others, like riposte, leathal blow, ...) abilities should not be just learned by improving certain other skills, but instead (at least for the first point of it) taught by the teacher. And I don't think they should use mana points, coz fighters don't need inteligence (in a game I mean :) ), but some other points, that would increase with dexterity (this way also dexterity, which I don't use often and also don't need it too much) would gain popularity. Also I'd like to add that, this one is for all those RPG fans, that having extra skills'd really give more life to a character, wouldn't it? :D [ Saturday, June 17, 2006 08:02: Message edited by: Anarhiztok ] -------------------- I don't care what you say, I'm punk and Hardcore all the way! Posts: 185 | Registered: Sunday, June 4 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6149
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written Sunday, June 18 2006 08:28
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I like the idea of these special abilities using mana points. First off, it makes it easier for Jeff, since he hasn't got to develop a new system (stamina points or something?). Secondly, it limits the amount these abilities can be used, since warriors need a lot of stats other than int. Thirdly, this is more fair to mages, since if they run out of mana they are SOL, but a warrior out of mana can still use his highly effective normal attack. So warriors having a tiny mana pool for their skills seems fine. At the end of the day, fighters need something. By the later stages of the game, they are just downright boring. Melee attacks only hit maybe 50% of the time, getting parried and riposted on a regular basis. On top of that, many monsters do physical or other damage to you every time you hit with a melee attack. There's something wrong when my melee tanks, with no points spent in ranged skills, resort to using bows because they are more effective. Honestly, archers aren't too bad in the endgame. Due to the high difficulty of parrying arrows and avoiding the ill-effects of spined creatures and the like. Even so, just point and shoot is kind of boring. And archers are only good in the damage department due to the horribly overpowered heartseeker. Melee just needs some interesting options. And it wouldn't be terrible if it were actually useful in the end-game as well. I'm not looking to have archers or melee fighters dishing out the kind of AoE damage prists and mages can. But something other than mindless point and bash would be good. Posts: 18 | Registered: Monday, July 25 2005 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Sunday, June 18 2006 10:58
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I think melee is fine the way it is, simple and effective. I'm not saying there can't be more features in skills like riposte, assassination, etc. but I'd make them automatic. I wouldn't even be opposed (although not prefer) to a fast recharging stamina bar that when you have a higher amount, would increase the likelihood of special attacks. Micromanaging the melee would draw out combat too much. I'd prefer more energy spent on making the encounters themselves more interesting and varied rather than using some crazy spin move. Either way, I would definitely not want mana and stamina to be mixed. Getting intelligence to boost the amount of times you can do a combat skill makes little sense and boosting other skills to boost the number of spells is nonsenscial as well. This would make warrior priest/mages very difficult to balance and work. At the end of the day, I'd prefer the stamina variable left out period. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7228
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written Sunday, June 18 2006 17:14
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I don't think mana-based melee abilities are really worth it. As has been said, fighters really don't need INT unless they're going to be mages as well, at which point they don't need the mana-based abilities. Stamina is a possibility - remember, this is the Geneforge engine, fully capable of having three different bars - but unless the skills are done JUST right, mages would be rendered useless when compared to a party of high-levelled fighters, or the skills wouldn't be used at all. Like I said earlier, I really think it'd be best to have the abilities be chosen from a small set, about 4 per weapon, 7 at the absolute most. Characters would learn them from trainers just like mage and priest spells, only they'd use no mana and be variations on the standard attack. If you want to do less damage, but hit more times, that could be an ability. If you want a guaranteed stun of an enemy, or even to daze them, at the cost of much of the damage and/or hit chance, that could be an ability. These abilities don't need to be heavily tweaked - since you can usually only attack one enemy per turn (unless hasted), they can be a little overpowered without losing much (if any) mage appeal. Plus, they lack the strangeness passive skills have in this game where your fighter just randomly pulls off two hits every few strikes, or randomly strikes back after parrying this time instead of on the Big Demon Lord you just ran away from... Hot damn I type a lot. -------------------- We all have our crushes. We all have our unrequited loves. They don't make you special. They only make you more ordinary. Posts: 11 | Registered: Friday, June 16 2006 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7195
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written Sunday, June 18 2006 22:15
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Well, you know what; although I didn't think so before, I got convinced it'd be kinda cool to have fighters need intelligence - after all, if a character wants to improvise a lot in combat, he/she'd have to be a little smart, don't ya think so?! Well, they shouldn't need so much mana, coz they don't need to be as "smart" as the spellcasters, so their abilities shouldn't cost as much as spells, but still something - I think it'd be more realistic and'd add a little more life into the character. -------------------- I don't care what you say, I'm punk and Hardcore all the way! Posts: 185 | Registered: Sunday, June 4 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7228
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written Monday, June 19 2006 00:12
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quote:Granted, having higher intelligence might factor into the moves in a small way, but it shouldn't cost mana just to, for example, put all your might into an attack instead of swinging normally. -------------------- We all have our crushes. We all have our unrequited loves. They don't make you special. They only make you more ordinary. Posts: 11 | Registered: Friday, June 16 2006 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 6908
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written Monday, June 19 2006 01:53
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quote:Grrr. I've read through this thread wondering, why doesn't anybody suggest this simple decision? So now I can honourably say: SECONDED. Conservatives prefer the fighting style "as is". Avangardists want to see it being advanced. No doubt, advancing the AI in the game will make it much more interesting. As for fighting - it is like finding something between "Chapaevists" (current fighting system) and "Chess" (advanced personalised tactics). There is always checkers. Each figure seems to be the same, but one sometimes achieves the ability to jump further. Making special events occur randomly, depending on some simple algorythms is a good way to vary the fighting system without wasting time to choose abilities for your characters. As for the thought that it would make warrior a "melee mage", I don't think players will reject playing mages or priests. Magic is always interesting. :) P.S. "Chapaevists" is a game, where checkers are placed in two rows: white against black. Then each player in his turn slaps one checker like in billiards, trying to wipe all the opponent's checkers from the board. Minimum mind activity. :P So let up expect some entertaining fights. ----------------------------------------- The voices: "Chapaevists"!? -------------------- 9 masks sing in a choir: Gnome Dwarf Slith Giant Troll Troglo Human Nephil Vahnatai "If the mask under mask to SE of mask to the left of mask and to the right of me is the mask below the mask to the right of mask to the right of mask below me is the same, then who am I?" radix: +2 nicothodes: +1 salmon:+1 Posts: 203 | Registered: Tuesday, March 14 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 1467
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written Monday, June 19 2006 02:39
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back in exile with six characters i had 2 tanks, one archer and 1 mage, 1 priest, and 1 mage/priest now it was true - it was the casters that did alot of the work. however i found tha all the skills that the tanks could provide were also just as useful, in particular potion making. they were stocked heavily with potions, and also were VERY useful with their attack buffs/debuffs. posion potion on sword saved me many times over when fighting more resistant enimies. i wouldnt mind to see status enducing , or special effect spells on warriors - basically things that mages dont normally do like coating their weapon with poison, or stunning the other character with their strike, or adding debuffs to their attack. something like.. an active skill, which would have a passive effect. this way you dont get the problem of fighters taking over, because most priests/mages rely on their active effects, with active skills. purely passive skills simply add no intensity - assassination, riposte, parry etc. - they are just there. but passive skills which can be activated <poison, debuffs to attack, etc.> would definately fit the line much better. -------------------- Brother Glorat The world is merciless, why should i care? Posts: 82 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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