Changes for Better or Worse?
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Apprentice
Member # 6907
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written Tuesday, March 14 2006 03:23
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The things I liked: 1. Area damage spells are good. 2. Pathfinding is good. (See #1 in the things I didn't like though.) 3. Teleportation is good, although a little overdone. (Was it really necessary to have pylons in both Dharmon and Blosk?) 4. Most of the unique items are actually useful in some way or another. (Does anyone remember Demonslayer - or any other weapon with +X damage to something - in A3?) 5. No more surviving at 0 health, which made many fights way too easy. 6. Lots more inventory space, plus the ability to carry extra at the cost of being encumbered. 7. No instant death encounters. I don't miss them one bit. 8. No arrows, especially 1 pound arrows that require you to give your archer more strength than your warrior just so you can carry all the arrows around. The things I didn't like: 1. The maximum pathfinding range is about half a screen. It would be a lot better if it were a whole screen, at least in wide open spaces with nothing in them. This could be done by setting certain points as default waypoins, which would reduce the problem to finding two paths, each half a screen long. 2. The world felt rather cramped. The cities were very close to each other, and many areas are gone altogether. What happened to the tunnels north of Motrax's Cave? How about the nephil settlements east of Mertis? Or the numerous small caves scattered throughout the Eastern Gallery? There may be more individual tiles in A4 than in the trilogy because of the lack of outdoors, but there is no more content. 3. There were no endurance matches at all. The most satisfying experience I ever had in an Avernum game was clearing out Angierach in A2. Why? Because it was a long series of difficult fights with a limited supply of mana. (The seven level dungeon in Canopy, from BOA, would have been even more difficult had I not had about 50 mana potions lying around.) In A4, there are no such fights. There are only two or three cases where you enter a dungeon and cannot leave until some objective is completed. In addition, almost no enemies respawn, so almost every dungeon can be completed by running in, killing one or two enemies, and then running back to town. 4. Melee is extremely gimped. One of my warriors can sit in front of a melee attacker all day and hardly take any damage. In fact, she deals more damage with Riposte than she deals by attacking. My archer, who is not a dedicated archer at all but a nephil priest with a couple points in Bows, does more damage in many fights than she does just because his attacks usually hit, whereas hers are parried or riposted about three-quarters of the time. 5. Increasing the level of a spell has very little effect. Considering how many coins I spent buying level 2 of every spell I could get my hands on, I expect more than the equivalent of one point in Spellcraft. 6. Also on the topic of spells, all the powerful spells deal fire or magic damage. Of course, vahnatai are resistant to fire and magic. Would it kill anyone to make a cold or acid damage spell that's useful late game? (Okay, yes, it would kill the evil vahnatai and everything else that is vulnerable to cold and acid. But you should do it anyway.) 7. More about spells. Do more than half of the damage spells have to be the same? Other than Lightning Spray and Divine Retribution, all the damage spells follow a predictable pattern: one weak single target spell, followed by more spells that deal damage in a circle with diameter 5. Would it be too hard to make some of the spells have a larger area, or a smaller area, or deal damage over time like Cloud of Blades? 8. Summoning is also extremely unbalanced, especially in the early game where one Wyrmkin can ruin your day. Some of the summoned monsters are much more powerful or much weaker than others summoned using the same spell. -------------------- This sentence is false. Posts: 2 | Registered: Tuesday, March 14 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 4136
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written Tuesday, March 14 2006 07:51
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actually the no outdoors system is awesome! i for one really disliked avernum series, i loved exile they were alot better, played boa for the xtra scenarios but soon found it boring because tm's scenarios gave you too much power after finishing so like a spoiler and played avernum 3 for the side quests. couldnt stand av1 and av2 avernum 4? best game since exile3 -------------------- --- Myth: Radiation si bad for you. Posts: 8 | Registered: Monday, March 22 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6909
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written Tuesday, March 14 2006 16:46
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I only had one major gripe with Avernum 4, but I feel pretty strongly about it. The lack of secrets really takes away from the game(I agree with Kelandon, having to be told about the secrets just isn't the same as spontaneously finding one.) One of the great pleasures of the Avernum/Exile series, perhaps the biggest pleasure, was finding these. Their conspicous absence detracts from the fun of Avernum 4 in five major ways: It mitigates the atmosphere of wonder and exploration that the game relies on. You don't get the feeling that you can find anything around the bend. Small secrets can vastly enliven the game, as when you find the uranium in Exile II.It destroys the expansive nature of the game. When you play, you don't feel the need to explore further after you have an area mapped out. The ability to go back and find something strange and interesting made the game infinitely more distracting.It harms the concept of character building. The difference between finding and missing secrets in the Avernum/Exile games can mean the difference between having a powerful party versus a weak one.It hurts the overall "richness" of the game. Secrets were a fun addition that added game time and pleasure to Avernum 4's predecessors.Finally, it damages replay value. Finding a secret that you missed the first time around can provide impetus for a second or third playthrough. [ Tuesday, March 14, 2006 16:51: Message edited by: Apophenic ] Posts: 1 | Registered: Tuesday, March 14 2006 08:00 |
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Cartographer
Member # 995
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written Tuesday, March 14 2006 19:04
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hrm. I was wandering around in the caves just last night and found a secret door no one told me about. because my luck was high, it popped open. neato. so there are secrets, they're just less common and don't require head-bashing to find. Posts: 206 | Registered: Thursday, April 18 2002 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, March 14 2006 21:27
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Personally, I'm all for the removal of secret passages. Their usefulness is negated when players learn to instinctively bash their heads against every wall that they pass by, anyway. I also happen to think that designing for "replay value" is seriously overrated, at least in RPGs. If a book is good, you'll want to read it again even though it has the same text as it did last time. Hiding things from the player the first time through in order to force them to play again to find them is less fun in practice than in theory, especially for those of us who don't have a lot of time on our hands. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 247
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written Tuesday, March 14 2006 22:24
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I agree that tracking should be a whole screen. I didn't enjoy having to find the halfway point then move the screen again just to move across one big section. I also agree with Thuryl on the idea or replaying an RPG. Normally once is enough for me. -------------------- The Knight Between Posts. Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Wednesday, March 15 2006 06:19
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I also hated the secret passages. Used to just power up the character editor to give me a powerful version of the revealing spell and go to town. If the game is to have "secrets" I prefer puzzles. You know of their existence but you have to figure out the solution. If you had time/energy to solve it could have a powerful prize but if you didn't well the game could still be won without it. The more I play these games the less I am into replay. I prefer new stories - gives me perspective on the authors. quote:Use the HLPM to get yourself to an appropriate skill level and viola, keeps the challenge high. Noticed comments about pathfinding. Not so big a deal, I just click on the inset map to locate an area sufficiently far enough away and then on the screen. Pretty quick work I say. -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6140
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written Monday, April 3 2006 10:54
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:mad: 's: - How the ENTIRE layout is *exactly* like geneforge. Either keep it as it was, or put a little bit of EFFORT into making NEW graphics and images. Geeze. This is was peeves me off the most. - How there is no character editor. - The character graphic color chaning thing. I at least want my characters to look realistic, so when I try to change my characters, I want only their clothes to change and not the SKIN (for humans) - No secret passages. - Moving system. The moving system should still be the same, with the arrow pointing in whatever direction you point, and how ever long you hold it in, your characters will follow. (Also making secret passages possible) - I want the old system of leveling stats up. Again, you just coppied geneforces system almost exactly. > :( - For humans...change the graphics. AGAIN, you copy Geneforge. Why don't you just call the game 'Geneforge 4', while your at it! - If you could not tell, I severely dislike how this game is the reincarnation of Geneforge. DROP THE LOOK. STICK WITH THE CLASSIC AVERNUM GRAPHICS AND LAYOUT. - Graphics for drakes, and a number of other monsters. I will repeat, once again, STOP USING GENEFORGE. It really peeves me off. I have a lot more of disslikes, but I don't have the time to write them out. :) 's - ...I can't think of anything. [ Monday, April 03, 2006 10:55: Message edited by: Sevvie ] Posts: 3 | Registered: Saturday, July 23 2005 07:00 |
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Board Administrator
Member # 1
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written Monday, April 3 2006 11:14
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I did read this whole thread. I've done complete engine reworks several times now. There will always be people who love the changes and people who hate them. Most of the changes I made in Avernum 4 are, I feel, all to the good. For example, I have absolutely no apologies for: i. Unlimited arrows. ii. The new first aid and death systems. iii. The new seamless world. (Avernum 4 would not exist if it weren't for this. I was completely fatigued with designing in the old system. Also, I'm not sure why people say there is no outdoors. Most of the game is outdoors, and the Avernum 4 outdoors has more detail and characters and stuff than any of the earlier games!) iv. No secret passages. (Bumping into every wall was just lame.) Things that are neutral: i. The movement system. It's sort of a sideways switch. But I really don't think Avernum 4's system is bad. Just different. And you can always move using the keyboard. Things that I will likely rework in Avernum 5: i. How locks/lockpicks work. ii. Having a proper character editor. iii. The lighting system. iv. I want elevations to return. I have to think a lot to see if it's feasible. Elevations didn't make the cut because it was already months of work just doing the Avernum 4 engine as it is. As I have already said in other threads, it was already a huge expense in time and money to have the graphics Avernum 4 already has. There will be more new graphics in Avernum 5. But the economics of the thing means that we have always reused old graphics and always will. You don't like it. I don't like it. Nobody likes it. But it absolutely can't be avoided. - Jeff Vogel -------------------- Official Board Admin spidweb@spiderwebsoftware.com Posts: 960 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3441
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written Monday, April 3 2006 14:34
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As far as graphics are concerned, I think that many members of the community would be willing to make sprites and such. I don't know what copyright type issues this might cause, but otherwise, I think it could greatly enhance the graphics selection. -------------------- "As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." --Albert Einstein -------------------- Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Monday, April 3 2006 15:05
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quote:Huzzah! Those last two really made my day! And generally speaking, I'm pleasantly surprised to see that Jeff read the thread and posted. Thank you Jeff! -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Monday, April 3 2006 17:08
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I glad to see Jeff's reply. The problem with lighting is the choice of color backrounds. If there is enough contrast between the colors we wouldn't have to increase the brightness to see in the lower black backround areas the black monsters. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, April 3 2006 17:24
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I think he means the use of torches and light spells, not contrast. Then again, fixing that is something that ought to be brought up in the next round of testing if Jeff doesn't fix it. —Alorael, who can live without casting Light over and over. Having elevation will go along way towards making A5 combine the best of Avernum and Geneforge, though. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Monday, April 3 2006 19:04
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That was probably four of my personal top five "Things I Want Jeff to Re-Work For A5," so it's good to see that we're on the same page. For the record, bringing back puzzles and other non-hacking elements of play is the last one in my top five, and I think that this may end up being included within the "changes to stealth" concept that has been mentioned. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6988
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 04:57
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:D I LOVE the new fort avernum portal! :mad: I hate not being able to use torches/candles :confused: The map layout is an interesting, but somewhat confusing change. :D I love the ability to go to the old towns. :( I'm not far in game, but no surface lvl play....I hope there is at least some... :D I love the obvious Geneforge interplay, including monsters, map, items, et cetera... Do I see a new game series coming out of Spiderweb? Maybe, eventually the abandon of both Avernum and Geneforge for a combinaton game? Avernum towns, Geneforge surface, Avernum styles and controls, Geneforge AND Avernum skills! (yes, that means the ability to create and keep specific mosters!) Possibly a new ability?? Necromancer? Ability to create and keep a dead dude? -------------------- Shade And Sweet Water, Reyak Posts: 2 | Registered: Tuesday, April 4 2006 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 07:58
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quote:Please be a joke. Please? It isn't very funny... (crosses fingers) -------------------- Thuryl: "Runescape: for people who are too stupid to save their games." Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 3371
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 09:28
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What I liked- 1. The big hurty jade halaberd yum! 2. The shades, creative! 3. The graphics are way better than previous 4. some pretty interresting twists (e.g trials ect.) what I did not like- 1. No Secret passages (Jeff, you better put them back in in a5) 2. The pathfinding problem... annoying as hell 3. lack of outdoors area... this made me feel claustrophobic(sp) i loved the out door sections of the other games 4. no elevation. 5. finally. for me the total lack of replay value -------------------- Row!!! Posts: 35 | Registered: Thursday, August 21 2003 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6912
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 09:39
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:( I hate the way the monsters are spread our in between towns. I like the encounters where they ambush you and flank you on all sides, but just having them proportionally dispersed and having to go into combat mode when you see them is annoying. :) It was great being able to order special items from blacksmiths I think I only got 2 things made but it was a very great addition. :) No frustrating terrain like poisonous swamps when u level up high enough all those things do is make annoying sound effects. :( I miss herbs that grow back I really really really do and being able to make potions my self. I actually liked this system in the begging but sometimes I really wished I could make an energy potion or two with out going back to town. :) Allies were absolutely awesome. The co-op assaults with the vanahtai on vanahtai were much better than the co-ops in geneforge. :( Why did vanahtai look so freaken huge they are tiny not bigger than you aren’t they??? :( Limited side quests for extra cash I don't think I ever had money shortages that bad in A3 or G3. I think some version of A3 side quests should be implemented. :) Unlimited arrows made me put a point or two in bows to 3 of my party members (mage was 2 weak). If the don't miss collecting the arrows at all!!! Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6632
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 11:15
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quote:The main thing I hope changes! Constant into-out of combat mode. Instead of encouners with 3 then 2, then 1, then 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,2,1,2,1,1,3,10 enemies in a dungeon. Have like 5, nothing, nothing, nothing, 4, nothing, bothing, 7, nothing, 10. Oh, and an option to speed up attack animations. Big fights with lots of melee use went lots faster in A3. Posts: 50 | Registered: Monday, January 2 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6979
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 12:04
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As a longtime member since E1, I have mixed feelings about the changes. The combat is improved, especially with area spells. First aid is good (though I have been finding it seems less useful as I am relying on more costly spells to get through the battles; perhaps a percentage of HP/SP might be better?) Mixed on feelings on losing the secret areas Mixed feeling about outdoors. Some areas like Formello or the Silvar/Ft Avernum/Cotra metropolis seemed too close together, other areas felt fine. Didn't like the cave system under the Great Cave. Felt like at least the Eastern Gallery had a weak reason for it, and the honeycomb was always supposed to be a pain, but the Great Cave tunnels were annoying, for the most part. Didn't like the creature imports from GF; all the artilas and worms and things didn't feel like they fit in the E/A world. Love unlimited arrows. Liked the ? marks on the maps. Relied on them too much occasionally, like trying to find the people in Mertis. Good, though. I really miss the puzzles. I feel like every game since E1 has been successively "dumbed down" (just contrast E1 and A1 to see what I mean.) Puzzles can be annoying, but the reward of figuring them out is real. One of my favorite Exile memories was the "One tells truth, the other lies, pierce them both to get the prize" puzzle. I spent an hour on that before finally figuring it out; very satisfying once I did! (I also miss Bach's "little fugue" in E1, but that's just because I like that piece of music ;) I miss plot. I'm glad you will put more plot in the next games, Jeff. The skill point system: I have been frustrated since G2 how it becomes increasingly difficult to strengthen your characters. I preferred G1 (though there were too many canisters) and Nethergate. In A4 you usually end up having diminishing returns from skill points as you get stronger, as well as slower leveling, which is just frustrating. In addition, having the XP penalty be based on the highest-level character really penalizes players who like characters with penalties along with characters with beneficial traits. In fact, I am not a fan of a significant XP penalty based on level; it should be based on experience. That would make penalties potentially worthwhile (and DT a real penalty). I also don't like getting to a trainer and finding out I can't train in a skill because I already did. You have to cheat by reading the walkthroughs to know which skills to buy; it makes much more sense, to just buy 1 level per person per skill separate from the training. You don't want to penalize the non-cheaters. Finally, I would encourage you to come out with a completely new idea. The sense of discovery with E1, E2 (the vahnatai), Nethergate, and GF1 was tremendous; with each sequel the sense of discovery diminishes. Thanks a lot for some great games; I definitely enjoy them! Ancalagon The Black, who now that he is posting for a second time felt a need to get a whole bunch off his chest at once... :) [ Tuesday, April 04, 2006 12:09: Message edited by: AncalagonTheBlack ] Posts: 7 | Registered: Friday, March 31 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6912
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 12:09
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quote:So so very true i hated going into combat mode over one goblin, but perhaps i wouldnt hate it so much if it didnt happen so many times Posts: 89 | Registered: Wednesday, March 15 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6983
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 16:43
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quote:The movement system feels a little odd, though I can't say why. One gripe I have with it though is the complete inability to satd in a doorway. It seems impossible to click on the tile, instead I end up just opening and closing the door :P On a related note: A character in combat can open and close a door in view no matter how far away he is. Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, April 2 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6983
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 16:44
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quote:Or just bring back the old school way of dealing with weak monsters, where you could "walk into" them to have the lead character attack. Posts: 11 | Registered: Sunday, April 2 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 961
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 19:14
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"iv. No secret passages. (Bumping into every wall was just lame.)" I don't know who you talked to over that one..but I have talked to many an Exile player who loved that feature. But that's fine. If you think it's progress..then so be it. I disagree. But that's me. And I guess the simpler the better? I dunno. Sad though. --Zelda -------------------- Hey, where are we going? And what's with the handbasket? Posts: 63 | Registered: Friday, April 12 2002 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, April 4 2006 19:36
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Come to think of it, I disagree with Jeff on two of the things that he thinks are improvements (seamless world and lack of secret passages), so we're not as much on the same page as I thought. But these are matters of taste, I suppose. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |