Geneforge 3 - Problems and Lankan
| Author | Topic: Geneforge 3 - Problems and Lankan |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Monday, September 3 2007 08:54
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(Watch for Spoilers) This game has a nice feel to it, it's definately a lot smoother than its predecessors. I have a few problems with it so far: 1. Jeff still meansures your allegiance on a single scale (Pro Shaper --- Pro Rebel) even though there are vastly different dimensions of idealogy. I would never pair Creation Rights with (something along the lines of) No Control over Dangerous Shaping Powers. There are also only two factions, and the Rebels are nuts. My character is all for Creation Rights, but to do that she's also got to side with the group that believes in total chaos. The rebels don't believe in reform, they want power. Basically, there is no room for a real opinion in this game. 2. The Rebels are completely whacka ding hoy. Lankan, for instance, is angry that the head Shaper on Harmony island wont solve all his problems. When confronted with the completely legitimate and honest response that his help would only exacerbate the current problem, Lankan explodes and whacks the guy in the face, running off and starting a small rebellion. So then I show up, wishing to solve the matter peacefully. Lankan doesn't want to talk, he doesn't want to listen, doesn't want to acknowledge that the Shapers want to solve the matter peacefully. He wants revenge against the Shapers for not being able to help, and has sided with the very faction that caused his problem in the first place. In no way do his quests reflect the current problem. He never asks you to take care of the rogues for him, he asks you to bring him a canister that will give him power. On top of that, for his self-absorbed mission, he tricked a bunch of angry villagers into joining him. If you don't give him everything he wants, he explodes and orders everyone to attack you. What an irrational crybaby. 3. Greta and Alwan are interesting, but they aren't very consistent (or perhaps too consistent). In this game I decided to leave Alwan by his lonesome and only take Greta with me. She's been a useful companion so far, but she's far to quick to agree with any Rebel propaganda we run into. Greta seems to believe in reform, not the violence and chaos the rebels preach, yet she agrees with every dangerous idea the rebels have. She sympathizes with every creature who shouts "down with Shapers," even if they're an irrational, hypocritical, and dangerous crybaby (like Lanken.) I guess I don't like them because they're too black and white. --- So here's my problem with Lanken. Because of my high leadership, I was able to schmooze my way into the Shaper's secret underground basement. Once there I found the special canister, and I took it with me. Afterwards, I decided it was time to meet with the Rebels (I guess you can all see where this is going.) So I met with Lankan, looking for a peaceful compromize but found that the guy was crazy. He wanted a canister that would grant him power, but I refused to give him one. Unfortunately, since I had the canister in my possession, he immediately confronted me and dove for the thing. Even though my character wants some reform with the Shapers, she still believes that absolute control over Shaping power must be mantained. Because of this, I desroyed the canister before any harm could be done. Lankan went bat**** loco on me. It never occured to him that I could solve his problems, all he wanted was the power. So he ordered his confused rebel friends to attack me while he ran around in circles, screaming like a lunatic. So I killed him and the guards attacking me, let the townspeople be, and left the town. Now everyones mad at me for killing their beloved village idiot, even though he instigated the attack. Even though I'm pro-reform, Greta is going to leave me because I refused to grant Lankan dangerous power. Because of Lankan, I'm unable to complete a majority of the side quests on the island and my exp draining and useful companion will leave. This is just stupid. -------------------- Enraged Slith's Blades of Avernum Website "Rain drops keep fallin' on my head, but that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red. Crying's not for me, no, cuz' I'm never gonna stop the rain by complaining." Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Monday, September 3 2007 09:19
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This is a typical complaint about G3, and it's a fact that the game doesn't permit all the options that ought to make sense. But if you're willing to squint a bit, in order to make the game more fun, you can try to see it like this. There's a war on, son. The time for sweet reason is past; now, it's kill or be killed, and compromise is treason to either side. Once you reach this stage, black and white is how things are, like it or not. Nothing can stop everything from falling onto one side or the other. Most people are panicking, so the hottest heads automatically have the most support, and they will have the last word, no matter how senseless it is. It's the hawks' hour; the doves are all dead. Choose your side, slam down the hatch, and put the pedal to the metal till there's nothing left to shoot. Then you can start thinking about which opinion would really be the best. Only then. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 10021
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written Monday, September 3 2007 09:32
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Or you could just kill everything you see like me. -------------------- When I close my eyes at night I see David Bowie. Posts: 157 | Registered: Saturday, August 25 2007 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, September 3 2007 16:15
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If you're careful, it is possible to solve the Lankan situation without helping or killing him: just deal with the rogues yourself, avoid visiting Lankan after finding his canister, and everyone's happy. Later islands don't have such feel-good solutions, though. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Monday, September 3 2007 16:35
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If you wait until seeing Lankin after going to the next island and reaching Dhonal's Keep, there is someone who will take the canister. Then you are safte to go back. Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Monday, September 3 2007 17:19
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quote:He's dead in all my saves. Not only will these few annoying quests stick in my menu for the rest of the game but my companion Greta is going to leave. What a waste of EXP. Game breaker. I nominate Lanken the worst character in all of gaming history. -------------------- Enraged Slith's Blades of Avernum Website "Rain drops keep fallin' on my head, but that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red. Crying's not for me, no, cuz' I'm never gonna stop the rain by complaining." Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Canned
Member # 8014
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written Tuesday, September 4 2007 12:54
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Well, G4 is a hell of a lot better. If you can't stand to playing G3 long enough to beat it...G4 is always the option. -------------------- Muffins n' Hell|Muffins n' Hell: The Muffins Are Back Again I have an addiction to Spiderweb games. I like this image Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Tuesday, September 4 2007 13:32
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Well G3 isn't bad, it's actually more engrossing than the other three. The worst thing about it is the lack of realistic options to choose from, the black and white setting, as well as some story pathing issues (like accidentally getting the canister before meeting Lanken, which although adds some nice realism, hurts the game because you're left with a bundle of unbeatable quests.) Some of the characters are too inconsistent or just poorly written. Greta sympathizes with every poor group of people you come across and yet has no problem with the fact that an entire school of innocent students was wiped out by the very faction she admires. Lanken blames shaping for all his problems, and yet knowingly sides with the Shaper who caused his problems and tries to take the very power he despises for himself. This could be the reason why Jeff added the Trakovites in G4. -------------------- Enraged Slith's Blades of Avernum Website "Rain drops keep fallin' on my head, but that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turnin' red. Crying's not for me, no, cuz' I'm never gonna stop the rain by complaining." Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, September 5 2007 07:24
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I wouldn't say the characters are badly written; they're just not all enlightened Trakovites. Greta got kicked out of the Shaper school, so she naturally has some resentment towards them. But those students hardly count as innocent: they are oppressors-in-training. Lankan doesn't object to magical power, but to the failure of the Shapers to use their power to protect his people. He wants a chance to do better himself. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 7557
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written Wednesday, September 5 2007 09:13
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In training? This is just like the A2 Slith Quest. You either have to cold-bloodedly slaughter a large number of innocent Slith babies or you let the quest hang in the air. Morals or bad scripting? Both these quests needed a "Sorry I can't" option. And the whole series needs a "Remove Quest" option. Not JV bashing here, just saying this does need to be looked into a bit more. -------------------- Thinking about it, whoever manages to harness the power of "Exodus" would be unstoppable. Posts: 942 | Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, September 5 2007 10:52
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No, Litalia slaughtered these youngsters in training, while you were looking at the splash screen. You may eventually decide to join her, but you don't have to approve of all her actions, let alone commit them yourself. And anyway, of all Litalia's actions, killing a schoolful of Alwans is perhaps the most militarily legitimate. An 'abort this quest' button is something I've wanted in the games myself; but it has a problem: there may need to be some way to change your mind, and re-accept a quest after deciding to abandon it. As the game progresses, you may learn that the quest is either more advantageous or less objectionable than it at first seemed. I guess for me what would make more sense than a cancel quest button would be a hide quest button, that would make quests disappear from my quest list. I could then hit a new button to show all the hidden ones, so I could unhide one if I wanted to. If I were really sure that I wasn't ever going to complete a quest, and I really wanted to make it impossible for myself to do it, I should just be able to return to the quest-giving NPC and tell them to take their quest and reabsorb it, sideways. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 27
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written Wednesday, September 5 2007 11:38
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quote:Still, at least in the beginning, Greta never openly states that she wishes to rebel against the Shapers. I don't have any specific examples to give you but from the way her dialogue was written, I got the impression that Greta only sympathized with those hurt by the Shapers. Her desire for reform was driven by her compassion for those hurt by the Shapers, so why on Earth does she sympathize with Litalia, a rogue shaper who slaughtered her old classmates and produced rogues to annihilate the populace? It seems inconsistent that one so abhored by the violence the Shapers cause would encourage the use of unrestrained violence to change their ways. quote:I got this impression too but his response to breaking the canister still seemed overly harsh and unrealistic. Not only does he side with the Shaper admittedly responsible for his problems, he never asks you to help destroy the rogues. [ Wednesday, September 05, 2007 11:39: Message edited by: Enraged Slith ] -------------------- Enraged Slith's Blades of Avernum Website Look out, there's a three-headed monkey behind you! Posts: 1233 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Wednesday, September 5 2007 14:26
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Originally by Gauldoth Half-Dead: quote:The Secret Sliths? You should be able to complete the quest just by killing the head chief/priest/mage or whoever the leader there is. No slaughtering of innocent children required. Dikiyoba. -------------------- Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Wednesday, September 5 2007 20:54
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The fact that Lankan never even considers that you might be able to deal with the rogues is indeed a weakness in the game. It's an example of the single biggest weakness I find in all Spiderweb games so far, except perhaps G4 — and of course in most other RPGs. The player's levelling up has no in-game rationale, and thus the plot cannot deal in any reasonable way with the single biggest phenomenon that transpires over the course of the game, namely the PC's advancement from peon to demigod. Why does the PC gain so much power so quickly? Why can't everyone else just go out and bash some monsters, level up a couple dozen times, and then come back and solve all their problems themselves? In G1 it's actually not so bad, in that the PC is at least respected, although prematurely, as a Shaper. In G2 and G3, everyone treats you as a helpless apprentice, except when they're giving you missions too big for a Shaper army. When you accomplish these, they still treat you as a helpless apprentice. It's as if you're Clark Kent. Lankan seems to assume that the most you can do is talk to people and carry canisters, when in fact, of course, you're the reason he doesn't need no stinking Shapers. There could definitely have been an option to tell Lankan, Relax, go home, I'll handle this. Then after succeeding you should be able to dictate peace to Lankan and Diwaniya. One thing that most of the Geneforge games seem to imply, without ever being really clear about it, is that there are actually a lot more rogues or rebels or whatever than the ones that you encounter as a player. It's as though 90% of the bad critters are holed up between the zones somewhere, and can only be cleared out by huge Shaper armies, in the ending texts. So in this sense the player's power is still limited. But this explanation only goes so far, since you can definitely eliminate the spawners or creators or whatever that are the source of the monsters. And it's only rather weakly implied, at best. In G4 people seem to assume consistently that as Lifecrafter you are a force to be reckoned with, and that you are quite abnormal. But given the Geneforge theme of gaining power, G4 could have been still more explicit about just why you gain power so much more rapidly than anyone else, and how other people deal with that evident fact. Even G4 never takes any notice of the fact that you are not just abnormally effective, but are actually gaining power at an enormous rate, such that you'll be able to toast named Drakons within a few months of having to run from rogue worms. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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BANNED
Member # 10021
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written Friday, September 7 2007 16:22
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Why is because you are the secret son of Christ(David Bowie). -------------------- When I close my eyes at night I see David Bowie. Posts: 157 | Registered: Saturday, August 25 2007 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Saturday, September 8 2007 00:35
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And if Jeff would put that into a pop-up, I'd be happy. Edit: Not ecstatic, mind. [ Saturday, September 08, 2007 00:36: Message edited by: Student of Trinity ] -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 5650
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written Monday, September 24 2007 05:32
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It's hard to believe that Lankan would be leading anyone at all. He threw a tantum at the only person who could've helped him, and then ran away to be even more helpless and miserable than he was before. Before Litalia promised him a canister his only plan was to wretchedly wait to die, and after that canister was intercepted his only plan was to wretchedly wait to die while pining for a canister. What are those rebels really doing there, what motivated them to follow this guy who's boldest action was something he admits was a desperate f*ckup? Then when you do bring him that power, does he say, "Now I've got a bargaining chip. I can represent these people." No, while surrounded by people who are severely vulnerable to his power, he says, "I've got the might that makes right, and now I'll show everyone just how wrong they are!" And yet they don't flee right back to the relative sanity of the civilization they grew up in? For that, they all deserve to die, but I showed mercy on them, too. Or pity. Posts: 42 | Registered: Thursday, March 31 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 10578
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written Monday, September 24 2007 14:51
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The canister triggered for me too, but fortunately I didn't kill Lankan. Killing the guards on the way out got me some nice experience, and didn't anger anyone. So that was nice. -------------------- "I intend to find out who has the most treasure, kill them, take it, and repeat the process." Posts: 432 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2007 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 10435
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written Tuesday, September 25 2007 22:56
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In my opinion, Geneforge 1 & 2 is the best in the series, it went a bit downhill in Geneforge 3, while it improved slightly in Geneforge 4 and went downhill at the same time(mostly because I hate playing as a rebel and prefer playing as a shaper). I would also like the means to remove quests, as I sometimes end up with pro-rebel quests I don't want, or can't complete because I already did something that prevents me from completing that quest. The biggest mistake(in my opinion) in the series is that you can't skip the tutorial(correct me if I'm wrong). Posts: 21 | Registered: Wednesday, September 12 2007 07:00 |
