Alwan and Greta questions
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Apprentice
Member # 7152
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written Friday, June 9 2006 08:46
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I was wondering what people thought of using Alwan, Greta, both, or neither. Since it looks like you're forced to choose a side and therefore can't keep both, is it worth it to recruit both anyway? I thought I saw something in a post about experience not dropping any further if you had more creations, and I assume Alwan and Greta count as creations. If that's the case, doesn't it make some sort of sense to recruit and keep both for as long as possible? If you don't want either one along for whatever reason, how crippling is it to your battle prowess to not have one of them in your party? How much of a difference does the extra firepower make? Early on, it was like getting a free creation, which is nice if you're playing an agent. As I got higher in level, though, they started looking more like cheap cannon fodder. Also, if I ask Alwan to accompany me, join the loyalist Shaper faction, but frequently espouse views sympathetic to the rebels, is it possible to anger him to the extent that he leaves? I assume that if I outright join the rebels with Alwan in tow, he'll leave the party at that point, but if I toe the line with actions if not words, will he stay? (Or the reverse with Greta.) Finally, is there any way to improve Greta's spells without actually buying upgrades for her? With Alwan, increasing his strength should help. But since spell strength is dependent on stats that I can't raise as she increases in level, I don't see any way to improve her basic firebolt. I experimented with raising her intelligence, but that didn't seem to help. (In fact, aside from resisting terror, does intelligence help any creation so long as you have control over it?) Or wait - is she like a fyora, in that raising her strength will increase the power of her firebolt? Posts: 18 | Registered: Monday, May 22 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 6581
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written Friday, June 9 2006 10:21
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quote:I suggest you to recruit both. One will go away, is true, but is useful anyway. And no, you have to buy upgrade for Alwan and Greta, if you want a more powerful attack/a more powerful spell. -------------------- Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6652
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written Friday, June 9 2006 10:23
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I've found Greta and Alwan to be invaluable at the beginning of the game, when you need all the firepower you can get, and moderately useful in the middle. I didn't even bother to go and fetch one of them after they died on Dhonal's Island, so I don't know about the late game. You can talk to various people that will upgrade their attacks. Dexterity, I believe, at least increases the to hit % of missile attacks like Firebolt. I'm not sure if it increases the damage or not. Alwan deserts you if you help the rebels at Harmony Isle, and Greta leaves if you kill them. It'd be possible to have them both, I think, up to the Dhonal's Island Creator, where you have to pick sides. EDIT: Beaten to the punch. [ Friday, June 09, 2006 10:24: Message edited by: Little Billy Sue ] -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, June 9 2006 10:55
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I haven't tested this with Alwan and Greta specifically, but for creations -- and it should be the same for them -- Dex only affects dodge rate. Hit rate for any creation attack is determined by the attack, the creation, and the creation's Str. (Has anyone tested this specifically with them?) -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7002
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written Friday, June 9 2006 11:02
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If you simply kill the rouges and move on, both stay with you. -------------------- Polaris Posts: 193 | Registered: Thursday, April 6 2006 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Friday, June 9 2006 11:45
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Up to a point; eventually, you can only keep one. They're both interesting characters, and I replayed to keep them both (in successive games) just to see what they said and what happened to them. Paying to upgrade their attacks, at the two opportunities you get in the game, is well worthwhile. Otherwise, on Torment at least, Greta pulls her weight, but Alwan is a bag of poo tied in the middle. He keeps dying, and dying, and dying (or rather, running away). It's hard to keep him alive enough to get enough experience to not die. Which came first, the slipping experience or the wimpiness, is an interesting question; either way, though, Alwan is a chicken. In fairness to Alwan, I believe this is just the usual problem that missiles are much easier than melee on Torment, because they let you avoid heavy melee damage from enemies. It is much easier to keep Greta out of range of enemies, but still useful. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 7143
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written Friday, June 9 2006 14:32
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What about the argument for using neither? I mean, they act as creations which means they can suck up exp that you may need. Am I missing something here? -------------------- "After I'm dead I'd rather have people ask why I have no monument than why I have one." - Cato the Elder (234-149 BC) "The mind, if it exists, is nothing but an unfortunate after effect of the brain process." -Kripke "One should die proudly when it is no longer possible to live proudly." -Friedich Nietzche Posts: 333 | Registered: Saturday, May 20 2006 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7162
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written Friday, June 9 2006 14:40
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quote:yes, creations take only a little exp but help you kill stronger things which gets you more exp. so it dosn't really suck away your exp. quote:i resent that. alwan rules. why? beacouse he's a guardian. and guardians rule. without gaurdians to use for intelligent cannon fodder shapers and agents would die. because they do not rule. -------------------- Dikiyoba is a god. Posts: 36 | Registered: Friday, May 26 2006 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Friday, June 9 2006 14:46
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Everything a Guardian can do an Agent or a Shaper can do better. It's been proven many times. The Guardian got short changed and rules nothing. :P -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 6652
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written Friday, June 9 2006 15:07
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In my opinon, something that is used for "intelligent cannon fodder" most definitely does not rule. If it did rule, it would likely change the rules so that it was no longer cannon fodder. -------------------- But I don't want to ride the elevator. Posts: 420 | Registered: Sunday, January 8 2006 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7067
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written Friday, June 9 2006 15:28
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quote:Be careful saying that... How about my melee squad leader? -------------------- "I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him. Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, June 9 2006 16:19
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quote:With enough points in Endurance and Blessing Magic to improve survivability, a melee Shaper might actually work. I'm not sure if it'd actually be better than a Guardian doing the same thing (and let's face it, a melee squad leader is a suboptimal strategy in the first place), but it'd be interesting to find out. [ Friday, June 09, 2006 16:25: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7152
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written Friday, June 9 2006 17:29
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Wow, I guess that explains why I keep dying so much. Lately, I've been playing without either one. Alwan's fanaticism gets on my nerves (and yeah, I've always had trouble with melee fighters in general), and while I sometimes sympathize with Greta, she also ends up annoying me. I mean, if you use leadership to absorb the rogue artila in the stables in Fort Kentia, she's disturbed. What, so she'd rather whack its head off? Does she think that's a cleaner death or something? It's still dead. And shouldn't she be mad at Hoge for leaving it there? And WHY does she hold *your character* responsible for the spawners in the mines?! Oh, well. I suppose I should either suck it up and take them with me or go back to playing the earlier Geneforge games. They didn't quite get on my nerves so much. I like the *idea* of having human companions, even if the fact that they can't use any armor or weapons that you find annoys me greatly. (I always play a low strength character, and I wish I could stick that fancy armor I find on Alwan. He might actually survive a few hits if I did. And why can't I at least load him with a thorn baton? I've got enough of them ...) But these two ... yergh. I just don't like them. Thanks for all the responses, by the way. I've certainly learned a few things. Posts: 18 | Registered: Monday, May 22 2006 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, June 9 2006 17:29
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I think we've found the Geneforge equivalent to "Nephils vs. Sliths." It's called "Guardians vs." -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Friday, June 9 2006 17:38
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Guardians vs. Drakons. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, June 9 2006 18:27
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Hmm. Maybe "Guardians vs. Battle Betas" -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Friday, June 9 2006 18:37
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Guardians vs. Vlishs - try getting into melee range when the range attack is so stunning (bad pun intended) Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Friday, June 9 2006 18:38
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How often do you see someone bragging about how excellent battle betas are? It's not about the realism. It's about the percieved "coolness" factor. It has to be at least Guardian vs. Battle Gamma for things to be interesting. Other possibilities include Guardians vs. Vlish, Guardian vs. Eyebeast, and Guardians vs. Everyone Else. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Friday, June 9 2006 19:25
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The point is that guardians and battle betas are competing to get dumped on the most by us :P -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 2599
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written Friday, June 9 2006 20:35
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I did some experiments, and Greta's damage seems to be improved by strength. This is counterintuitive for this kind of attack, but I guess it makes it consistant. I liked having both from a combat viewpoint. Even when Alwan is just sucking up some damage and running away, at least that damage was not done to my character, and I can heal him easily later. Late game, he gets over 500 hit points, which can be boosted by magic. So he can really take a lot of damage that might otherwise get to your agent. As a shaper, where you can make your own cannon fodder, perhaps Alwan is not so useful. Still, he does not take up any of your essence, and is a minimal experience drain. As for dialog, both are annoying at times. I can't believe Greta is so facinated with a generator that produces very powerful out-of-control rogues. Given all that we have seen, I can't believe Alwan does not see that a little bit of kindness and gentleness can go a long way toward defusing tensions, thinks that a stricter policy is needed, and rebukes me for stating otherwise. They are both nutcases in their own ways. [ Friday, June 09, 2006 20:40: Message edited by: Mike Montgomery ] Posts: 201 | Registered: Thursday, February 6 2003 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Saturday, June 10 2006 02:04
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Strength increases Greta's damage because underneath her drop-out Agent skin, she's really a creation, as far as the game mechanics are concerned. Alwan can eventually get a lot of hit points, but he never gets parry or raises his resistance with items. My game with him was as a melee Guardian without creations. I figured we'd be a good team, two of a kind; but he was constantly getting blown away by attacks that just singed me. At first he was still useful, but whenever he died, I would generally finish the zone alone. I guess this was a vicious circle, and his experience gain rate kept dropping as he started dying earlier and earlier in each zone, until eventually he was really no use at all. With a Shaper, or maybe even an Agent, Alwan might be okay. But I think Greta would be okay for anyone, because she can fight while staying out of harm's way. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 2599
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written Saturday, June 10 2006 07:27
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quote:I kept Alwan alive most of the time as an Agent. Essence Armor and/or Steelskin do wonders for his survivability. Also, after he takes 80% damage or so, I just pull him back if I don't feel like healing him right then, because I can usually spend the time doing far more damage than he does. Sometimes the enemies will chase the injured Alwan, running right past me, using all their action points and not getting off a shot, and I can finish them off. In late game, I felt he was often worth the essence needed to protect him and keep him alive. With some magic resistant enemies, sometimes my best recourse was to spend my energies healing Alwan, so that he could do melee damage that was often double what I could do with magic. Greta is always useful. There is no need to justify a decision to keep Greta. Alwan is more borderline as to whether he is useful, which is why I was detailing how I make Alwan useful. Unfortunately, you don't get to keep Greta as a loyalist, so you have to figure out how to best use Alwan. Posts: 201 | Registered: Thursday, February 6 2003 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Saturday, June 10 2006 07:59
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Nobody is arguing that Alwan is impossible to use, and that he can never be helpful at all. The point is that he is so wretchedly gimpy compared with Greta, with practically any creation, or with a Guardian or Agent. I don't think that can be contested. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 7162
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written Saturday, June 10 2006 10:03
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quote:he is not, just cast essence shield and uagument on him and he's fine. quote:nonsense, gaurdians make better cannon fodder don't they? quote:gaurdians enjoy being cannon fodder, it's what they do. and to prove my point that gaurdians are as good as shapers and agents, imagine this, all the gaurdians are dead. the shola attack. who's their to stop them? NOONE. Agents don't know how to fight an honest battle, shapers can't and a horde of battle betas and vish are NOT as good as a horde of gaurdians. the Shola would kill eveyone. so even if noone will admitt it the shaper society needs gaurdians. without them they would die. so gaurdians do rule. :D and i won't stop trying to prove that they do until people agree with me. beacuse it's true. :) -------------------- Dikiyoba is a god. Posts: 36 | Registered: Friday, May 26 2006 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Saturday, June 10 2006 10:08
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Alwan should have had a baton, which could be upgraded as time goes on. He could get "missile training" from an instructor. As stupid as that sounds. I mean, it's not that hard to pick up a baton and use it, but there is a bit of a problem of getting the upgrade and making it somehow realistic in game. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |