The Refuge

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AuthorTopic: The Refuge
Apprentice
Member # 7136
Profile #0
I have just started playing Geneforge 3 and was at the Refuge on Greenwood Island and I was just wondering if everybody kills all hte guards and people to get the stuff in their rooms?

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'If it wern't for electricity we would all be watching tv by candle light' George Gobol
Posts: 12 | Registered: Tuesday, May 16 2006 07:00
The Establishment
Member # 6
Profile #1
It depends on your feelings on slaughtering innocents for treasure. Personally, I try to avoid it.

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Your flower power is no match for my glower power!
Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #2
Go for it they aren't innocent really.

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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #3
They're probably all criminals.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #4
Dikiyoba thinks that Dikiyoba left them alone, but only because Dikiyoba's characters tried and died several times before giving up and never came back.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #5
They're criminals? *scratches head*

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Warrior
Member # 7067
Profile #6
quote:
They're criminals? *scratches head*
Well, it says this:

text3 = "The people down here must be hiding from something. This makes you very suspicious. It might be a bandit lair. Or it might be rebels who have gotten in trouble with the Shapers. You will have to be careful.";

And this:

text4 = "This makes sense. Humans who distrust and fear the Shapers live in places they call Refuges, places hidden from the Shapers. They are not necessarily criminals or rebels, though. Just paranoids who don't like you.";

The first was when you go into the caves. The second was when you talk to Aiglos.

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"I knocked him out, but I managed to hit the reply button before he fell down."-The person behind him.
Posts: 153 | Registered: Monday, April 24 2006 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #7
It's more likely that they are paranoid than criminals. They act and talk more like paranoids who dislike Shaper rule and creations than criminals. (Although they certainly wouldn't admit it if they were criminals.)

That's Dikiyoba's opinion, anyway.
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Shaper
Member # 5437
Profile #8
I left those particular people alone. I didn’t really need anything, and would rather leave them alone if possible. Also, it didn't look like they had anything all that valuable.
Posts: 2032 | Registered: Wednesday, January 26 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #9
Some of them may be criminals. It's not a sure thing, but I wouldn't be surprised.

And they do have some items of worth, such as the the only iron sword on the first island. :D

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #10
They're awfully tough for what they have as loot. I figure if you can take them, you don't need what they have.

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Agent
Member # 6581
Profile Homepage #11
I leave them alone, because I agree with *i.

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Download Geneforge 4: Rebellion

You have 6 posts. Nobody cares what you think. - Thuryl

Wikipedia may be your friend, but UBB is not. - Dikiyoba
Posts: 1310 | Registered: Tuesday, December 20 2005 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 2245
Profile Homepage #12
'Innocent' is such a subjective term. Those in those Refuge admit to being hostile to Shaper rule. They border on being rebels. A loyal Shaper has only one choice, and that it to wipe them out.

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VIVE LA TAKERS!
VIVE LA REBELLION!
VIVE LA GHALDRING!
Posts: 522 | Registered: Friday, November 15 2002 08:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #13
quote:
Originally written by Waylander:

'Innocent' is such a subjective term. Those in those Refuge admit to being hostile to Shaper rule. They border on being rebels. A loyal Shaper has only one choice, and that it to wipe them out.
This is true from a role playing point of view. A loyalist shaper would exterminate them for expressing contrary opinion. The same way that any real loyalist would destroy Lankan at first meeting, for being contaminated by evil and rebelling.

"You dare question a shaper?! You must die now!"

Best sort of character to play a hardline role is the Agent... Because you know they enjoy their job.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #14
I have to imagine that many hardline loyalist Shapers, after witnessing firsthand the destruction of their school, after being easily incapacitated by a foe (Litalia), and after hearing rumours about the other islands -- not to mention Terrestria -- being overwhelmed by rogues, would decide that the times called for a less unilateral path.

IIRC, Alwan doesn't even comment on the Sea Caves people, and he's pretty much the Geneforge equivalent of Karl Rove.

-- Also, if a hardcore loyalist would take down Lankan at first sight, why does Diwaniya become so horrified if you kill him? Diwaniya seems pretty straight-edge when you talk to him.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #15
quote:
Originally written by John Paul v. Jean-Paul:

I have to imagine that many hardline loyalist Shapers, after witnessing firsthand the destruction of their school, after being easily incapacitated by a foe (Litalia), and after hearing rumours about the other islands -- not to mention Terrestria -- being overwhelmed by rogues, would decide that the times called for a less unilateral path.

IIRC, Alwan doesn't even comment on the Sea Caves people, and he's pretty much the Geneforge equivalent of Karl Rove.

-- Also, if a hardcore loyalist would take down Lankan at first sight, why does Diwaniya become so horrified if you kill him? Diwaniya seems pretty straight-edge when you talk to him.

Lord Rahul approves of you dealing with the rebels harshly... Diwaniya is spineless and weak, the end credits even say so, he is punished for not slaying the rebels outright and left on that island simply because there is no worse place to put him. His failure to deal with the rebels by extermination is shameful.

Any contrary opinion is to be met with death... No ands, ifs, or buts. Shapers are pretty much totalitarian. Only the priviledged few can speak out, but even they face eventual termination, like Khyryk, who knows that one day the Shaper Council is going to come knocking on his door and is well prepared for it, or Sharon, hiding in her somewhat well defended grove. She even says that when the time comes that she hopes she is not dealt with to harshly for her conflicting opinions. Shanti even hints at this, more so when you play an Agent in G2, what your role is and how honourable it is to be the Agent. In game texts it describes how Agents are the assassins, murderers, executioners of those who would dare oppose the shapers or dare rise up against their rule or break their laws. Pretty much any violation of the law for non shapers seems to result in death, at least from what I gather. For a shaper, punishment comes in beaurocratic form, like whatsisname being banished to that island for the rest of his miserable life.

In fact, the very fear of Agents coming for them in the night is what keeps people in line. Words to this nature are said someplace in the series I believe.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #16
The point is that when you have absolute power, as the Shapers previously did, it's easy to enforce "any contrary opinion will be met with death." When your factional power base is fragmented, injured, and mostly inaccessible to you, and when you personally are just a lone apprentice, it's not the same story. Litalia forcibly demonstrates that you can't enforce those kinds of absolute rules, when the game begins. The absurd but unavoidable power escalation your PC experiences aside, Lord Rahul, the most powerful Shaper in the area, is also unable to enforce such rules, even when he has a decent number of other Shapers, and armies of warriors and of creations to back him up.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #17
quote:
Originally written by John Paul v. Jean-Paul:

The point is that when you have absolute power, as the Shapers previously did, it's easy to enforce "any contrary opinion will be met with death." When your factional power base is fragmented, injured, and mostly inaccessible to you, and when you personally are just a lone apprentice, it's not the same story. Litalia forcibly demonstrates that you can't enforce those kinds of absolute rules, when the game begins. The absurd but unavoidable power escalation your PC experiences aside, Lord Rahul, the most powerful Shaper in the area, is also unable to enforce such rules, even when he has a decent number of other Shapers, and armies of warriors and of creations to back him up.
And that is where the delicious roleplaying factor comes in. A hardcore loyalist will kill all those who cross shaper law, while a sympathetic loyalist will look past minor infractions. (Like when you have to report the servile being contacted by hostiles) The game gives you options to do both.

There is a few points where this breaks down. Like Grenier or however you spell his name... It's not hard to see that under shaper law, he should be terminated for his failure and allowing himself loss of control, and Rahul lets him off because of friendship. For many Shapers though, failure means death. You learn that in the school if you speak with the control mind, that death is the shaper way, and a small price to pay for being able to control and create life. Failure is met with termination, probably in the form of an Agent coming for you in the night. The Shapers are a results oriented society... Not uncommon in total totalitarian rule.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 2599
Profile #18
I left them alone because I was playing a sympathetic loyalist.
Posts: 201 | Registered: Thursday, February 6 2003 08:00
Infiltrator
Member # 5754
Profile #19
I kill them because they are, most likely, criminals hiding from the law.
Posts: 626 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #20
quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

quote:
Originally written by John Paul v. Jean-Paul:

The point is that when you have absolute power, as the Shapers previously did, it's easy to enforce "any contrary opinion will be met with death."
And that is where the delicious roleplaying factor comes in. A hardcore loyalist will kill all those who cross shaper law, while a sympathetic loyalist will look past minor infractions. (Like when you have to report the servile being contacted by hostiles) The game gives you options to do both.

No, not like when you can report a servile. My point is that a true hardcore loyalist -- as you describe her -- would be stubborn to the point of suicide. If I were a hardcore loyalist, I would want to be sure of my survival and my eventual ability to deal with the most egregious violations of Shaper rule -- like Litalia and Akhari Blaze -- rather than throwing hissy fits and possibly getting killed over a couple of reclusive, paranoid humans. Diwaniya might require punishment, but he can be dealt with after the more immediate problems. There is no risk involving in killing or reporting traitorous serviles, on the other hand.

[quote]Failure is met with termination, probably in the form of an Agent coming for you in the night. The Shapers are a results oriented society... Not uncommon in total totalitarian rule.[/quote]While there are people who say this, there is also evidence to the contrary. Greta was allowed to live, despite her magical skills and her quite obviously traitorous leanings -- and that was when the Shapers still held absolute power and would not have been troubled to execute her, or simply to punish her with more than just an expulsion. Failure is often but not always met with termination.

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
Skip to My Lou
Member # 40
Profile Homepage #21
For the sake of exploring every tiny bit of the game, at one point or another I kill absolutely everything to see what they give me or how it affects the game. I killed them once and saw all they have is crap, so I tend to leave them alone now.

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Take the Personality Test!
Deep down, you wish you were a stick figure.
Posts: 1629 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #22
quote:
Originally written by John Paul v. Jean-Paul:

[b]
quote:
Originally written by Delicious Vlish:

quote:
Originally written by John Paul v. Jean-Paul:

The point is that when you have absolute power, as the Shapers previously did, it's easy to enforce "any contrary opinion will be met with death."
And that is where the delicious roleplaying factor comes in. A hardcore loyalist will kill all those who cross shaper law, while a sympathetic loyalist will look past minor infractions. (Like when you have to report the servile being contacted by hostiles) The game gives you options to do both.

No, not like when you can report a servile. My point is that a true hardcore loyalist -- as you describe her -- would be stubborn to the point of suicide. If I were a hardcore loyalist, I would want to be sure of my survival and my eventual ability to deal with the most egregious violations of Shaper rule -- like Litalia and Akhari Blaze -- rather than throwing hissy fits and possibly getting killed over a couple of reclusive, paranoid humans. Diwaniya might require punishment, but he can be dealt with after the more immediate problems. There is no risk involving in killing or reporting traitorous serviles, on the other hand.

[quote]Failure is met with termination, probably in the form of an Agent coming for you in the night. The Shapers are a results oriented society... Not uncommon in total totalitarian rule.
While there are people who say this, there is also evidence to the contrary. Greta was allowed to live, despite her magical skills and her quite obviously traitorous leanings -- and that was when the Shapers still held absolute power and would not have been troubled to execute her, or simply to punish her with more than just an expulsion. Failure is often but not always met with termination.[/b][/quote]Greta was an initiate, and not a full shaper. She wasn't even an apprentice really. Expulsion was probably the standard way out. She was unfit for duty. Weeded out. A lot of shapers start out feeling sympathy for creations, this is evident, even Shanti speaks about it, but it is conditioned out in time. And from a realistic stand point, probably the reason why Agents travel alone so much... Shapers and Guardians, being able to create life and having creations, might have feelings for what they create, emotions for their creations, their creatures. Some Shapers, and I speak as a Shaper, one of the three classes, some Shapers probably never fully shake these feelings. Hoge has that old Alpha that he has kept around forever and upgraded. Fyoras are said to be kept as pets and sentries. An Agent is probably heavily conditioned to not get an emotional attatchment to anything, which is probably why they don't shape so well. They are there to take life, not create it, or heal it. Hence, Greta's failure was that she had emotions, which is probably a liability for potential Agents. Emotions could be used against them... Like, say, provoking anger or total outrage in a Shaper by attacking his beloved pet Fyora... Said emotional outburst would be a weakness, something to exploit. A lone solitary Agent would have no such weakness, and, if as theorised, was a conditioned mass murderer, would be perfect for upholding her role as judge, jury, and executioner with no messy emotions or personal sentiments getting in the way. The Shaper society would have themselves the perfect police force and judicial system... No messy public trials, very little corruption, and lots of results to be rid of criminals. The fact they feel the need to hide in some dank hole says an awful lot.

Upon taking those tests, like in the testing grounds, I believe it is from that point on that death starts being the penalty for utter failure, unless of course, there is a fate worse than death handy, like being marooned on a swampy smelly island.

And something to think about... How many fallen Agents do you see in the Geneforge games? Lots of fallen Guardians, like whatsisname, Barzal, and many fallen Shapers, but how many fallen Agents do you see running around

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00
Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
Profile Homepage #23
Lots, if you count the number of times people playing Agents save and reload :P

Seriously though, how many agents do you see at all? Very few. G1 has none, G2 and G3 definitely have more shapers and I think more guardians. Shanti, the only agent who is ever significant to the plot, dies. Macwhatserface in G3 dies in the Rebel storyline. How many agents do you see who prosper?

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Slarty vs. DeskDesk vs. SlartyTimeline of ErmarianG4 Strategy Central
Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00
His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
Profile #24
Agents simply aren't as visible, and obviously not as prone to fall from grace. I seriously doubt they want to be noticed.

I do believe that G3 is meant to be played from the Agent's perspective though... The character in the storyboard picture is now an Agent.

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If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish.

Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish.
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00

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