The Political Compass (Armed and Dangerous)

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AuthorTopic: The Political Compass (Armed and Dangerous)
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #75
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

One issue is that "liberal" propositions are less liberal than "conservative" questions are conservative. For example, the question about legalizing drugs asks only about pot, instead of legalizing all drugs. Similarly, the questions about alternative lifestyles ask only about homosexuality, instead of furries, S&M, and other things people might find more objectionable. On the conservative side, however, we have eugenics, outright racism, and other views that are strongly condemned by most of society.

I feel condemned to respond to this. The reason the test questions are there is because they are relevant to society today. There is no furry legislation, or open discussions about eugenics. They may exist as one end of a spectrum, but they just.aren't.relevant.

The fact that members of this community associate with the lower left quadrant is a factor of this community, not of society as a whole. I'm certain that you could ask the same set of questions in other communities and aggregate into a completely different quadrant. And new page.

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Vogel - "10% off on all of [our] products for the month of October. ... this discount applies to games, CDs, bundles, and even already discounted products."

Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #76
Originally by Zeviz:

quote:
There are also a lot of completely irrelevant questions like the one about astrology. For some reason saying that you don't believe in astrology gives a more liberal result, despite the fact that it has no relation to social and political views, and neo-pagan rebellious teenagers are more likely to believe in astrology than fundamentalist christians.
Actually, it makes you more authoritarian. Strongly disagreeing with every question results in a score of (0.00, -4.36). Strongly agreeing with the astrology question ("Astrology accurately explains many things.") but strongly disagreeing with every other question results in a score of (0.00, -3.90).

Dikiyoba.

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Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #77
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

One issue is that "liberal" propositions are less liberal than "conservative" questions are conservative. For example, the question about legalizing drugs asks only about pot, instead of legalizing all drugs. Similarly, the questions about alternative lifestyles ask only about homosexuality, instead of furries, S&M, and other things people might find more objectionable. On the conservative side, however, we have eugenics, outright racism, and other views that are strongly condemned by most of society.

I feel condemned to respond to this. The reason the test questions are there is because they are relevant to society today. There is no furry legislation, or open discussions about eugenics. They may exist as one end of a spectrum, but they just.aren't.relevant.
...

Then why did the test ask about eugenics?

This is exactly my point. For the liberal prepositions they are asking about things relevant to modern society. (There are legislative proposals to legalize gay marriage and to legalize marijuana.) For the conservative propositions they ask about things that aren't relevant to modern society. (There are no legislative proposals to ban disabled people from having children, or to introduce forsed segregation.)

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Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #78
You confused both Diki and me? :confused:

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Vogel - "10% off on all of [our] products for the month of October. ... this discount applies to games, CDs, bundles, and even already discounted products."

Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #79
Here is the simplified version:

Page 3 of the test. Question 9:
quote:
Marijuana should be legalised.
This liberal opinion is commonly held in modern world.

Question 11:
quote:
People with serious inheritable disabilities should not be allowed to reproduce.
This conservative opinion was commonly held only in Nazi Germany.

Page 6. Question 2:
quote:
A same sex couple in a stable, loving relationship, should not be excluded from the possibility of child adoption.
This is a very mildly liberal position.

Question 5:
[quote]No one can feel naturally homosexual.[quote]
This is a very conservative position.

There are plenty of other examples like this.

So a mildly liberal person taking this test would agree with all "liberal" positions and reject all "conservative" ones. While a mildly conservative person would reject some of "conservative" propositions in addition to the liberal ones, ending up with a more "liberal" score.

[ Tuesday, October 16, 2007 11:13: Message edited by: Zeviz ]

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Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Councilor
Member # 6600
Profile Homepage #80
Originally by Zeviz:

quote:
PS Diki, that's exactly what I said: "saying that you don't believe in astrology gives a more liberal result".
Whoops.

But it does make a certain amount of sense to have the astrology question work the way it does (regardless of whether or not anyone thinks it should be on the quiz at all). If someone believes in astrology, they're letting themselves be influenced by authority (ie, the people who write the horoscopes) in this particular instance, regardless of their other views. So it should give a less liberal result.

Dikiyoba.

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Episode 4: Spiderweb Reloaded
Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #81
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

So a mildly liberal person taking this test would agree with all "liberal" positions and reject all "conservative" ones. While a mildly conservative person would reject some of "conservative" propositions in addition to the liberal ones, ending up with a more "liberal" score.

Umm. Well, I actually voted in line with Nazi Germany then. Heil me.

Could you explain what you mean by the mild conservative ending up with a more liberal score? I guess (per our /clan conversation) that I've moderated somewhat in my view and don't take a strictly liberal or conservative view. Particularly on this test, it is sometimes easy to look at the questions in isolation and answer according to how you view that issue within your perfect world context.

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Vogel - "10% off on all of [our] products for the month of October. ... this discount applies to games, CDs, bundles, and even already discounted products."

Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #82
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

...
Could you explain what you mean by the mild conservative ending up with a more liberal score? I guess (per our /clan conversation) that I've moderated somewhat in my view and don't take a strictly liberal or conservative view. Particularly on this test, it is sometimes easy to look at the questions in isolation and answer according to how you view that issue within your perfect world context.

What I mean is that while the test does a thorough job of confronting the person with statements representing extreme conservative viewpoints, the equally extreme liberal viewpoints are never brought up.

We have:
- "I'd always support my country, whether it was right or wrong" (3rd reich anyone?)
- "our race has many superior qualities, compared with other races" (this is as explicitly racist as you can get)
- "All people have their rights, but it is better for all of us that different sorts of people should keep to their own kind." (YAY4 segregation)
- "The most important thing for children to learn is to accept discipline." (Even if discipline is high on your list, few people would call it the most important. For example, religious people would consider belief in god more important than "discipline" in general.)
And so on. There are similar examples of extreme conservative positions in social and religious areas, but the list is already too long.

On the liberal side, the statements are much milder:
- "Marijuana should be legalised." - What about people who want to legalize all drugs? And reapeal the minimum drinking age?
- "A same sex couple in a stable, loving relationship, should not be excluded from the possibility of child adoption." - What about those who support gay marriage? (This question can be agreed to even if you are against gay marriage but for "civil unions".)
- "Pornography, depicting consenting adults, should be legal for the adult population." - What about those who think 16 year olds should be able to watch whatever movies they want?

Consider these two people:
- a person who supports "civil unions", but not gay marriage, is ok with marijuana, but not cocain, and believes that only adults can watch X-rated movies
- a person who supports gay marriage, believes there should be no restrictions on drugs or drinking age, and thinks that movie ratings should be abolished

These two people could get the same -10 on this test. (And I hadn't even mentioned extreme liberal things like polyamorous communes.)

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Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #83
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

We have:
- "I'd always support my country, whether it was right or wrong" (3rd reich anyone?)
- "our race has many superior qualities, compared with other races" (this is as explicitly racist as you can get)
- "All people have their rights, but it is better for all of us that different sorts of people should keep to their own kind." (YAY4 segregation)
- "The most important thing for children to learn is to accept discipline." (Even if discipline is high on your list, few people would call it the most important. For example, religious people would consider belief in god more important than "discipline" in general.)
And so on. There are similar examples of extreme conservative positions in social and religious areas, but the list is already too long.

Man, either your backround lets you read too much into these questions, or mine just is completely vacant.
The nationalism question is not about Nazi Germany, it is about the Bush presidency and his mantra of "you are either with me, or against me."
Our race does have many superior qualities. I think it is a great race. I'm sure all races think they have superior qualities. I don't think that there is a better race overall, or that there is any sort of hierarchy. Does that make any sense to you?
Umm. Not sure I completely disagree with you on the "segregation" question, but people do have a pretty strong desire to hang out with people that have similar interests. That would be the whole basis for Comicon, for example. I realize that is a fairly sparse example, but I'm pretty okay with the idea of nudists existing, but not in the same place where I do my grocery shopping.
:P
I agreed that the most important thing for a child to learn was to accept discipline. Not a beating, or abuse, but actual discipline. There is nothing wrong with discipline, and quite frankly not enough of it in society today.

In short, I really do think your worldview has colored your perception of these word meanings, and has created an interpretation which is very skewed. Is there a chance?

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Vogel - "10% off on all of [our] products for the month of October. ... this discount applies to games, CDs, bundles, and even already discounted products."

Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #84
I think you are still missing my point. So let's try this:

In the end of my last post I've described two people who would both score -10 on this test, despite one of them being far more liberal than the other. Please describe the equivalent pair on the conservative side. (Give me a pair of conservatives, one of whom is as extreme as they get, while the other is a mainstream guy, both of whom would score +10 on this test.)

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Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Guardian
Member # 6670
Profile Homepage #85
By Zeviz:
quote:
quote:
People with serious inheritable disabilities should not be allowed to reproduce.
This conservative opinion was commonly held only in Nazi Germany.
Just a side note, but not true, and not just in Nazi Germany and Alberta either (though it is a bit of an old issue).

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I have included two tickets so that you may bring a friend, if you have any.
- George Bernard Shaw

I regret to say that I am unable to attend that night; I would like tickets to the second performance, if there is one.
- Winston Churchill
Posts: 1509 | Registered: Tuesday, January 10 2006 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #86
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

I think you are still missing my point.
Nope, I stand by my point, which is that you are interpreting the questions a lot differently than me. You are forcing them to be ultra-[stance] and ignoring the fact that, as Dintiradan pointed out, they really aren't so extreme. I'm not going to take the test again in order to sample various response-score scenarios, since I simply don't care enough. I do find it interesting though that while some people take the test extremely serious, quite a few just see it as a lark. I wonder which set of people receive scores that are more closely aligned to their deep-seated beliefs.

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Vogel - "10% off on all of [our] products for the month of October. ... this discount applies to games, CDs, bundles, and even already discounted products."

Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #87
It seems that my attempt to make shorter posts was interpreted as admitting that you are right and I am wrong, so I guess I'll have to go through it line-by-line.

quote:
...
The reason the test questions are there is because they are relevant to society today. There is no furry legislation, or open discussions about eugenics.
...
quote:
...
Umm. Well, I actually voted in line with Nazi Germany then. Heil me.
So which one is it? Is eugenics "irrelevant to society today" or is it a commonly held point of view in the modern world?

quote:
The nationalism question is not about Nazi Germany, it is about the Bush presidency and his mantra of "you are either with me, or against me."
You might be right on this one.

quote:
Our race does have many superior qualities. I think it is a great race. I'm sure all races think they have superior qualities. I don't think that there is a better race overall, or that there is any sort of hierarchy. Does that make any sense to you?
The question says "our race" not "every race", and "many superior qualities", not "some superior qualities". So agreeing with this statement indicates as extreme a degree of racism as anybody can express in public. (Just the idea that different races have inherently inferior qualities would be racist, even without the qualifiers of "our" and "many".)

quote:
Umm. Not sure I completely disagree with you on the "segregation" question, but people do have a pretty strong desire to hang out with people that have similar interests. That would be the whole basis for Comicon, for example. I realize that is a fairly sparse example, but I'm pretty okay with the idea of nudists existing, but not in the same place where I do my grocery shopping. :P
"It is better for all of us that different sorts of people should keep to their own kind" implies much more than "I want nudists out of my grocery store" to anybody familiar with American politics.

quote:
I agreed that the most important thing for a child to learn was to accept discipline. ...
I'll believe this when I hear it from somebody who isn't a self-proclaimed liberaterian. :P (In other words, you are playing a devil's advocate for a position I've never seen in real world. Even the most conservative people I know have things other than "obey authority" at the top of the things they want their children to learn.)

quote:
In short, I really do think your worldview has colored your perception of these word meanings, and has created an interpretation which is very skewed. Is there a chance?
Sure, I've seen a lot more left-wing lunatics than right-wing lunatics. However, I still don't believe that desire for eugenics, racism, and respect for authority above all are as common in modern Western World as acceptance of homosexuality and marijuana.

quote:
Originally written by Dikiyoba:

...
But it does make a certain amount of sense to have the astrology question work the way it does (regardless of whether or not anyone thinks it should be on the quiz at all). If someone believes in astrology, they're letting themselves be influenced by authority (ie, the people who write the horoscopes) in this particular instance, regardless of their other views. So it should give a less liberal result.

Dikiyoba.

This is just another example of a question that will give almost everybody "liberal" points, just because few people in the modern world believe in astrology.

PS As for my objection to this test, it's not about where it places me. It's about the way they tell people to vote. Their chart for politicians goes from +10 - build death camps (Hitler) to -10 - lives in a polyamorous commune (no politician below -4); while their chart for poll results goes from +10 - racicst who likes eugenics, segregation, and fanatical loyalty to authority to -10 - a moderately liberal person who might oppose to gay marriage, legalization of cocain, or letting 16 year olds see X-rated movies.

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Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #88
Heh.

If you look back to my "Heil me" line, it was preceded by your assertion that Nazi Germany held the position that people with serious inheritable disabilities should not be allowed to reproduce. I have nothing more to add to that than this clarification.

You racist pig! How dare you assume that "our race" refers to white or black or oriental? I naturally assumed that people of all races would be answering that question, and would feel good enough about themselves that they would see all the positive about themselves, and not have to be reduced into negative comparisons. I think it is pretty fantastic what our race can do. Try making a short list. Or a long list. It would take forever. You assume that because I feel my race has superior qualities that I either am saying other races have inferior qualities, or that I am even comparing to other races, and neither of those assumptions is true.

Obey authority is completely different than accept discipline. The mental fortitude to take a dressing down without collapsing into a heap of despair is a "good thing." Knowing that a verbal reproach is not the end of the world, and realizing that a change in behavior is all that is required is a "valuable asset." Accepting discipline is crucial. You can not dissuade me, and I don't feel that it has anything to do with being authoritarian or libertarian.

Re: your PS, that is something that you hadn't made clear, at least to me, until just then. I had thought you were saying the opposite in fact.

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Vogel - "10% off on all of [our] products for the month of October. ... this discount applies to games, CDs, bundles, and even already discounted products."

Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 4784
Profile Homepage #89
PSA: Mho's contained within.

Ok, I've informed myself on all the candidates and where they stand on the issues.

I would not be happy with any of the democrats currently running. If I had to choose one, I could live with Joe Bidden or Mike Gravel even though they both clash heavily with my social stances. Their redeeming quality is their support of FairTax which I hope to see within my lifetime. And if pit against Rudy Giuliani or John McCain, I'll be voting Democrat next year.

All other Republican candidates would be acceptable in varying degrees, but my favorite is dun, dun, dun...
Dr. Alan Keyes
Of course, he needs a literal miracle just to just get on the ticket, but... 'I have a dream!'

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Forever Always on Past the End

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Posts: 563 | Registered: Tuesday, July 27 2004 07:00
Shaper
Member # 3442
Profile Homepage #90
quote:
Originally written by Jumpin' Salmon:

How dare you assume that "our race" refers to white or black or oriental? I naturally assumed that people of all races would be answering that question...
Naive, perhaps, but I read "our race" to mean all humans, and the "other races" to mean animals. Which, looking back makes no sense in a political quiz.

Fortunately, I still voted "Disagree", so it won't affect my score too much.
Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 32
Profile #91
It should be noted that where we live plays a vital role in how we perceive the world around us. Zeviz, you live in California, of course your going to see more people with a liberal viewpoint. That doesn't mean that their views are anywhere near liberals in say, Kansas.

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Lt. Sullust
Quaere verum
Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Infiltrator
Member # 3441
Profile Homepage #92
Economic Left/Right: -4.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.15

Which is funny since I consider myself to be Economically moderate and socially conservative. To me, these results could use more statistical rigor, for example giving the results as a percentile of other users rather than a raw score.

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"As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." --Albert Einstein
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BoaEdit
Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00
Shaper
Member # 73
Profile #93
RTFFAQ

quote:
12. Does "our race has many superior qualities" refer to my particular race or the human race?

"Race" can only refer to the human race or to one of its subdivisions. The proposition, in comparing one's race with other races, can therefore only be referring to the latter.
At any rate, I do find Zeviz's argument convincing.

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My Myspace, with some of my audial and visual art
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Posts: 2957 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
Profile #94
quote:
Originally written by The Almighty Do-er of Stuff:

quote:
12. Does "our race has many superior qualities" refer to my particular race or the human race?

"Race" can only refer to the human race or to one of its subdivisions. The proposition, in comparing one's race with other races, can therefore only be referring to the latter.

Like I noted on page 1, I do not interpret the question as the author(s) predicted. Having been dragged into discussion by Zeviz, I find he has used the "it is because it is" argument without coming to terms with the fact that the question does not state that one particular race is superior over others, which is vastly different than deciding that ones own race, whatever that may be, has qualities that oneself feels are superior. I agree that the question is poorly written and ambiguous. Had it been written "I believe that my own race is superior," my answer would have been different and the discussion would have looked at another poorly written question instead, especially as most Americans (I hope) do not see their skin color as being the cultural determinant of submission or domination as was so prevalent prior to the mid-1900's.

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Vogel - "10% off on all of [our] products for the month of October. ... this discount applies to games, CDs, bundles, and even already discounted products."

Synergy, et al - "I don't get it."

Thralni - "a lot of people are ... too weird to be trusted"
Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 7557
Profile #95
[Casts invisibility, dodges the debates and adds]

Economic Left/Right: -5.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.62

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"I must admit, killing mortals is much easier then killing demons. If you remove a demon's head, all you end up with is something that tries to bite your ankles." -Valen
Noob: lol 1337 lol woot
Posts: 942 | Registered: Sunday, October 8 2006 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #96
(This post starts out unrelated to the topic. I'm getting there, so be patient.)

Turns out that a week without internet access, a head full of statistics, and hands full of time that ought to be spent on exam revision, can make me kind of inventive.

This small PHP utility is an older work I made years ago; I just cleaned it up a bit this time. I started out making a horrible plotter for the (long-defunct, replaced by PPP) forum stats monitor; it's used in a (currently broken) obscure feature of the Endeavor that shows a bar graph of individual post count over time. I put some work time into it when my boss wanted graphical stats somewhere, but it took too long for him (that would have been a precious week wasted not repositioning submit buttons in web forms!) so he made me stop.

---------

Essentially, it's a really simple to use (with basic PHP skill) tool to plot x/y data as a graph.

So when I finished fixing it, I gave it some old PC data I had archived (having no internet, after all), and here's the result:

IMAGE(http://ermarian.net/services/statistics/compass/map?img=1&width=500)

The horizontal and vertical lines are mean values. Ellipsis around the mean center signify standard deviations. This gives - within the technical limits of the PC - an overview of the political position and variation different communities have.

I've also made a web form for adding to the map, but it's not quite done yet. Anyway, I'll replace the demonstration data with the stuff from this thread soon. :)

[ Saturday, October 20, 2007 15:35: Message edited by: root ]

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The Noble and Ancient Order of Polaris - We're Not Yet Dead.
EncyclopediaArchivesStatsRSS (This Topic / Forum) • BlogNaNoWriMo
Did-chat thentagoespyet jumund fori is jus, hat onlime gly nertan ne gethen Firyoubbit 'obio.'
Decorum deserves a whole line of my signature, and an entry in your bookmarks.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #97
Since the image is dynamic, it no longer matches the text. I've added all the historic data of Spiderweb - and as you can see, although the individual members move around a lot, we haven't significantly changed over the last four years.

One outlier is removed, namely VCH's 9 / 9.15 in December 2005. With my new expertise I could calculate both the likelihood of such a result within this community, and the likelihood when compared with his previous -3.88 / -5.23 and current -5.25 / -6.97; but the sarcasm sensor works just fine without number-crunching. :P

[ Sunday, October 21, 2007 03:03: Message edited by: root ]

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The Noble and Ancient Order of Polaris - We're Not Yet Dead.
EncyclopediaArchivesStatsRSS (This Topic / Forum) • BlogNaNoWriMo
Did-chat thentagoespyet jumund fori is jus, hat onlime gly nertan ne gethen Firyoubbit 'obio.'
Decorum deserves a whole line of my signature, and an entry in your bookmarks.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #98
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

and neo-pagan rebellious teenagers are more likely to believe in astrology than fundamentalist Christians.
The astrology questions are probably a fallacious extension of the (arguably accurate) trend that strong religious conviction is only held by authoritarians. It makes sense - fundamentalist faith consists of a strong central authority that must not be questioned.

The corollary that conservatives tend to believe in the supernatural (and hence in astrology) is hilariously wrong.

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The Noble and Ancient Order of Polaris - We're Not Yet Dead.
EncyclopediaArchivesStatsRSS (This Topic / Forum) • BlogNaNoWriMo
Did-chat thentagoespyet jumund fori is jus, hat onlime gly nertan ne gethen Firyoubbit 'obio.'
Decorum deserves a whole line of my signature, and an entry in your bookmarks.
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
Profile #99
Why are the graph's two axes so correlated?

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We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty.
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