Adding action to a RPG
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Warrior
Member # 7745
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written Tuesday, May 22 2007 09:20
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What do you think is the best way to add action to a RPG? I think that Avernum needs more action, especially since it's single-player, as killing monsters to get their weapons to kill bigger monsters to improve statistics just isn't fun. Not unless you've got OCD or something. I think it is very interesting how the best single-player RPG to date, has tackled this problem. Oblivion has included a Thief-esque stealth engine, a day/night system and 'living' AI. This allows you to break into peoples houses and steal their stuff. Or to silently assassinate a target for a contract. I think this adds a huge amount of action, and so, fun to the game. Perhaps, my opinion is biased as i have always been a fan of the Thief games. But ultimately, i think that every single-player RPG needs some form of action. Something to get the adrenaline rushing. Also, i think that if such systems are implemented in games they need to be involving of the player like Oblivion.A dialog box saying "Well Done! You successfully stole 10 Gold!" isn't enough, i want to feel the tension as i slowly sneak around to steal the trader's goods, etc. Also, adding more interesting combat is vital. There are two ways of doing this: 1. Make the combat more strategic, by making the combat more strategic it makes the play have to think about their moves and so feel more involved in the game. It also adds an extra layer of challenge to the game. 2. Make the combat real-time Now this wouldn't really work in a 2D game for obvious reasons. But making the combat like Oblivion or Gothic makes it much more involving and overall, much more fun to play. In conclusion: No, i'm not expecting Avernum 5 to have 3D, 1st-person graphics nor am i expecting to see any of these suggestions implemented. But am i the only person who finds repetitive, tedious, hack'n'slash gameplay boring? Posts: 59 | Registered: Thursday, December 7 2006 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2080
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written Tuesday, May 22 2007 10:32
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Actually, Oblivion's combat was quite stale and ended up being a bit repetitive after awhile. I'd say Legacy of Kain Defiance and God of War did fighting pretty good. Add some more RPG stuff to them, don't have bad camera angles, and make them less absurdly linear, and sub in your own plot & world. Then, you'd have a great system for an Action RPG. Just don't fill it up with a bunch of retardo filler quests and monsters and have a good plot. EDIT: I really don't see how someone can think of Oblivion as a great example what isn't a Hack'n'Slash. I hate to break it to you, but there's more strategy in Avernum than Oblivion. Hell, there's more strategy in friggin' Checkers than there is Oblivion. I will give Oblivion this though, at least there's a plot in it, unlike ChatCraft, which is nothing but filler and fluff. [ Tuesday, May 22, 2007 10:36: Message edited by: Bandit Keith ] -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Tuesday, May 22 2007 12:08
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Nalyd would prefer that Jeff make a all-new Third Person RPG, Warcraft style. We need a mindless Hack n' Slash, every once in a while. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 6885
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written Tuesday, May 22 2007 12:16
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I have to agree that Avernum has much more possibilies for strategy than Oblivion. I liked Oblivion, but it's combat is anything but strategic. In Avernum you have to plan out your battles... if you don't you will get killed... especially later in the game. In Oblivion I played through the entire game by just rushing in with my latest, greatest weapon and slashing everything that opposed me to bits (swallowing potions as I needed them). Could I have used strategy? Maybe... but the point is I didn't have to. In the Avernum games if you don't use strategy (especially in the latter part of the games) you will simply get defeated. Just my opinion. -------------------- May all your hits be crits! Posts: 23 | Registered: Friday, March 10 2006 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 8030
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written Tuesday, May 22 2007 14:37
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Avernum has plenty of action, it's just not 3D. -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Tuesday, May 22 2007 15:14
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If you want an action-RPG, you're frequenting the wrong message boards. -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, May 22 2007 15:20
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I'd be happy to see more strategy, but that's not action. Adding more action is something I don't really see a need for in Spiderweb-style RPGs, especially if they add some real-time twitch component. I don't have reflexes. —Alorael, who now thinks this is one reason he likes Myth 2 so much. Real time is much easier when you're running it at a fraction of the normal speed. And honestly, exchanging bowfire while dodging is just classy. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2080
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written Tuesday, May 22 2007 19:02
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Kinda like when one of my games used to lag hella bad and it was like bam, I can matrix dodge and crap yo. Well, there goes any credibility I ever might have had. Anyway, I personally like the current Spiderweb style. There's something to be said for oldschool RPGs. Real-time RPGs can be okay, but sometimes I just need that RPG I can play in the background while I have to do other stuff too. -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8016
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written Tuesday, May 22 2007 21:47
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I like the old school style Avernum's got going on. Usually I prefer it to other games, like Oblivion, since, like you've all said, there's real strategy involved in it, not just running around and chopping down goblins. Posts: 29 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7745
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written Tuesday, May 22 2007 21:55
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I never said Oblivion was strategic. But it's combat was enjoyable, maybe it could've been better (dismemberment, etc.) but it was good. I think Avernum should keep the battle system the way it is, i like the strategy, but it would be nice to have bigger battles, like in an army or something. But i think more should be added to Avernum like moving AI, a night/day engine, stealth engine, etc. as it would add much more gameplay and make it a much deeper game. Posts: 59 | Registered: Thursday, December 7 2006 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8596
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 00:09
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Of all the RPGs I've played, I'd have to say I do actually have a preference for more action-inclined RPGs than the standard turn based-type games. I do however have a fondness for tactical RPGs as well, Battletech, Super Robot Wars, Ogre Battle/FFT and what have you. Although it doesn't have to be fast paced action nor tactical for me to enjoy it. I still enjoy Ar Tonelico despite it's extremely abuseable systems and abysmally low difficulty curve. -------------------- ni~pah Posts: 28 | Registered: Friday, April 27 2007 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 02:34
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No. The reason I like Avernum as much as I do, is for how it is now. Though it could have more strategy, I wouldn't like to see it turned into a second rate Oblivion. This would spoil all the fun for me. Sure, it has it's benefits and it might be more interesting, but look at it this way: Does Jeff have the means to make such a game? I don't think so. I don't know how many people worked on Oblivion, but it would have been more than one. So obviously, i don't think that has to be the solution. However, Jeff could make a bigger variety for monsters in terms of attacking. It's now sort of standard: ranged or melee, and if it's ranged it's either a spell or archery. I agree making more variety in this is sort of difficul. What one could try though, is to make the player think of more forms of attacking his opponent, by making the opponent use different kinds of strategies. Maybe make it dependent on the surroundings the batlle takes place in. There aree a lot of ways to improve on combat, in my opinion. [ Wednesday, May 23, 2007 02:37: Message edited by: Thralni ] -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 05:21
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What's all this talk about strategy in Avernum? I have never once had to think to defeat an enemy... Or perhaps I'm confusing it for another word that means "systematic plan of action." -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Master
Member # 5977
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 05:43
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That's what I had been asking myself for some time too: "Tactics? I thought I was actually continously hacking through god knows how many monsters", until I realised that that was not true. i was acting in a way I was thinking about what my next step in combat would be. Though it's not exactly tactics, despite from the "get rid of the mage as soon as possible" tactic and more of such things, it is thinking about ways to defeat the enemy. -------------------- Play and rate my scenarios: Where the rivers meet View my upcoming scenario: The Nephil Search: Escape. Give us your drek! Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4638
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 06:13
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There are two types of "Action" that people seem to be considering. 1. "Action" dependent on the speed of real time interactions. 2. "Action" dependent on "strategery". I am not sure Jeff will every incorporate a lot of #1 into Avernum and Geneforge. (Although, arguably stealth in Geneforge is largely dependent on real time actions.) Such a real time system would dramatically change the existing combat paradigm. That being said, it is conceivable that such a system could be implemented to give the much maligned battle creations in Geneforge an edge. If more interaction was required to activate non melee attacks, then the simple hack and slash battle creations could benefit under such a system. As far as "strategery" is concerned, such systems are more suited to war games. Geneforge and Avernum already incorporate some strategy, based on resistances and item interactions and combinations. This could be ramped up a little without a complete redesign of the existing combat system. I would favor this mild redesign. Combat style could be incorporated. For example, sword and shield style would have advantages against missiles and magic (you can block it with you shield), but would not get two attacks like dual wielders. -------------------- And so it goes. Posts: 93 | Registered: Tuesday, June 29 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7745
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 06:32
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Yeah, that would be good. Just add more battle interactions, etc. More interesting quests would be good too rather than just "bring X to Y" Posts: 59 | Registered: Thursday, December 7 2006 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2080
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 07:56
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Bring X to Y... Oblivion had it's share of that, and no one seemed to complain. I do agree some more interesting quests couldn't hurt. I haven't really had a chance to play the more current games due to budget issues, but in the olden days, the side and main quests seemed to be quite interesting. -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 7745
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 08:52
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Yeah, but Oblivion gave you multiple possibilities of getting to X and Y. The stealth engine combined with the AI and day/night engine provided this enough, let alone the extra possibilities they deliberately added in. Posts: 59 | Registered: Thursday, December 7 2006 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2080
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 09:29
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I remember seeing that stealth system in action. A friend of mine raised it up to really high trying to follow some ghost who always managed to spot him, even when he got it up real high and was doing legitimate stealth. Might have been a glitch, but it was still annoying. I find that trying to do stealth in something other than a first person shooter to be just a little pointless. 'Specially in RPGs where you should have magic to do stealthy stuff for you. -------------------- "I don't understand a word you just said. Try speaking American. It's the only language I understand." Posts: 1918 | Registered: Sunday, October 13 2002 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 09:50
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Sounds add a great deal to the action. Thank goodness they are included. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 5360
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 10:38
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Nalyd would like Lords of Magic-style combat. As in, you can give a certain command to any of your party members, and combat can be paused at any time. While paused, or not paused, a new command can be given. Spells must be specially selected, and their casting will not repeat like ranged and melee attacks will. -------------------- May the fires of Undeath burn in your soul, and consume it. Posts: 1636 | Registered: Wednesday, January 5 2005 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 16:47
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Strategy by that definition means EVERY game has strategy... aim for the head, take out trade routes, turn the box to fit, hold down fire as to destroy all the aliens in the fastest possible time... Stop saying "I want strategy" and say what specifically you want to see. -------------------- DEMON PLAY, DEMON OUT! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Canned
Member # 8014
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 17:01
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quote:There is a big epic battle in A2. Also, Avernum has strategy. For example, there is a creature really tough for my party. Lets say I am impatient and just want to kill it now. First time, it kills me. I then think up strategy, getting better each time I lose. I increase my chances of killing it. There is also basic strategy too. But there is too much to describe, I can't say it all in this post. -------------------- I can transform into almost anything, though not sanity. Muffins n' Hell. Note that revisions of the first part is down the list. Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1934
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written Wednesday, May 23 2007 18:55
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quote:Seconded. I like being able to stop the realtime combat and reorder my troops. It's a great system. -------------------- You acquire an item: Radio Free Foil Posts: 1169 | Registered: Monday, September 23 2002 07:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 313
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written Friday, May 25 2007 21:39
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a game you would probably like is Icewind Dale II. its a hack n slash game with lots of "action" and requires a bit of strategy too. its an older game; should be about $10 on amazon... -------------------- finally, a superhero we can trust... Posts: 37 | Registered: Saturday, November 24 2001 08:00 |