The U.S. and Iraq
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Author | Topic: The U.S. and Iraq |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Monday, March 19 2007 10:42
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Whatever the true reason was for the war, the reality is that it was sold to Congress and the American public largely on false pretenses, lubricated by the climate of fear generated by September 11th. There was never any truly "just" rationale for this "intervention," however. [ Monday, March 19, 2007 11:56: Message edited by: Drew ] Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Monday, March 19 2007 11:43
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quote:I don't blame you; Christian babies are delicious. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Monday, March 19 2007 11:50
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quote:That's academia. I bet you less than half of the people off the street could identify Washington as a slaveowner. quote:The problem is that the history books are a lot different from the history. If you ask people about how Vietnam ended, it was the antiwar activists destroying the morale of the fighting forces, and there's countless (entirely fabricated) stories about soldiers getting spat on back home. There's a difference between history as it is taught in the books and history as it is taught on late-night TV. The latter is a lot more influential, and that's why the American withdrawal from Vietnam is, preposterously, considered a conscious decision forced on the American government by the radicals among the American left instead of a recognition of the futility of holding onto South Vietnam by the military establishment in the face of serious failures. Serious history is almost unanimous in the military-fatigue angle; pop-history is almost unanimous in the commie-activist-flower-power angle. (Whether the activists are considered brave antiwar crusaders or heinous communists, they're still, wrongly, either credited or blamed for the American withdrawal pretty much everywhere except scholarly history.) When academics write the history books on Iraq, they'll recognize first and foremost the military fatiguing of the occupation and pushing for withdrawal - if it's anything like Vietnam, anyway - because as soon as the brass lose enthusiasm for a project like this it tends to decay. But when Jay Leno cracks wise about it in fifteen years, I seriously doubt his first concern is going to be academic rigor. [ Monday, March 19, 2007 11:52: Message edited by: Protocols of the Elders of Zion ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Monday, March 19 2007 11:58
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quote:It could have been just, but it was conceived by villains for villainy. There's nothing good that can come of that, and we face the black harvest of Bush & co's greed now. At least only about 3500 Coalition forces have died - the Iraqis have, by conservative estimates, suffered 650,000 dead since the invasion. In other words, we've inflicted more victims on Iraq in four short years than Saddam did in his entire tenure. USA! USA! USA! [ Monday, March 19, 2007 11:59: Message edited by: Protocols of the Elders of Zion ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
Infiltrator
Member # 3441
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written Monday, March 19 2007 12:13
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While at this point I realize that Iraq was a mistake, one question still nags at me. If Saddam didn't have any WMDs (and the consensus is that he didn't) why the hell did he doom his regime by refusing to give complete access to UN inspectors, as he was required to my the treaty he signed at the end of the first Gulf War? -------------------- "As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." --Albert Einstein -------------------- Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00 |
...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Monday, March 19 2007 12:45
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He was counting on his bluff working. It worked for North Korea, after all. Besides, he wasn't so much refusing them access as giving them access while at the same time blustering about his military power, leading to the impression that he had to be hiding something no matter how many searches failed to turn anything up. [ Monday, March 19, 2007 13:03: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Monday, March 19 2007 12:55
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quote:The idea that Iraq's refusal to cooperate with UN inspectors lead to the invasion and occupation of Iraq conflates the 2003 invasion and occupation with the 1998 bombing campaign, Desert Fox, orchestrated by the US under the Clinton administration. In 1998, the US asked weapons inspectors to leave and proceeded to bomb suspected WMD-making facilities with cruise missiles. In 2002, Saddam Hussein invited UN weapons inspectors into the country in order to satisfy the UN resolution putting the burden on Iraq to prove it had no WMDs. Whereas Clinton's bombardment was welcomed by the UN as adding teeth to their complaints of non-cooperation with weapons inspection, Bush's invasion was regarded as an effort to gainsay Hans Blix's inspections in Iraq, which had been given as complete access to Iraqi facilities as the boundaries of national sovereignty allow to inspectors and demonstrated pretty conclusively they had no WMD ambitions. I'm certain the conflation on your part is the result of a simple and inoffensive misapprehension; the right-wing noise machine has been very busy trying to reconstruct Clinton, buffing and adding truthiness to every absurd allegation thrown at him by the lunatic reactionary faction in the 90s and transposing every policy of his they have any reason to admire to one of the Bushes. Very little effort is made by the media to approach the Clinton administration honestly. [ Monday, March 19, 2007 13:00: Message edited by: Protocols of the Elders of Zion ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
Infiltrator
Member # 3441
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written Monday, March 19 2007 15:07
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I do recall the Desert Fox operations during Clinton's tenure. My understanding had been that Saddam once again was obstructing a full inspection, not allowing access to certain palaces, citing a need for privacy. -------------------- "As our circle of knowledge expands, so does the circumference of darkness surrounding it." --Albert Einstein -------------------- Posts: 536 | Registered: Sunday, September 7 2003 07:00 |
Lifecrafter
Member # 7538
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written Monday, March 19 2007 15:46
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quote:Ahem. Do you mind? Really? I mean come on. :rolleyes: -------------------- Do not provoke the turtles. They do not like being provoked. -Lenar My website: Nemesis' Refuge Posts: 743 | Registered: Friday, September 29 2006 07:00 |
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Monday, March 19 2007 19:04
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quote:Nope. At the very least not enough to modify the validity of the UN's assessment in any substantial way. The obstructions were few and moderate. Blix acknowledged them, but rightly assessed that Iraq would not be capable of stockpiling, manufacturing, or maintaining weapons of mass destruction in the small areas cited as private. And given that several UN weapons instructors took bribes from the US government in order to spy on the Iraqi government's internal affairs - and that this was basically an open secret - Saddam's moderation in resisting inspectors was pretty astounding. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Monday, March 19 2007 21:58
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Alec: I see. You're talking about the pop culture concept of history. I will grant that pop culture usually gets everything horribly, horribly wrong, so this is probably no exception. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, March 19 2007 22:50
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quote:Well, the babies just aren't appetizing at all if the relish is no good. —Alorael, who will have you know that the Torah is very specific about which babies are kosher for Passover. They can't have been born too long ago or they've got too much yeast in them. You have to get them fresh! Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 05:39
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18 months is the cutoff date. And they can't have had any previous diseases, broken bones or cuts that left scars. Of course the best parts of the firstborns are burned as an offering to God, but there's still usually enough left over for the seder. Yes, I do mind, I just don't care. If you can't figure out that I'm being sarcastic even then, I have very little care for your need for me not to say stuff that isn't in jest. -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
Agent
Member # 3364
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 07:57
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quote:I asked you nicely, but did you listen to me? No. Not that I'd expect you to. Here is what the Democrats had to say about the 'record' that you seem to think is so obvious. And for those that don't know, Desert Storm started August 2, 1990 and ended February 27, 1991. quote:I just love that last one. It's too bad they didn't all read the same record you have. Then they'd know better, right? quote:You misunderstood. I don't unqustionably think that it will 'go to pot' without us there. Just that I don't seem to care much if they do. quote:I have no qualm with the Iraqi people. They are no different from us. We have criminals in America just like they have criminals there. They just, unfortunately (and possibly due to a certain someone or group of someones not having a viable plan of action for creating one when they took out the previous one), seem to lack a stable government and police force to adequately deal with the insurgants (aka. criminals) in their country. I'd just rather let them deal with their criminals on their own. If they can handle it, great! If they can't... well, see statement above. quote:Correct me if I'm wrong, though. Haven't they been asking us to send more troops? Not that I really disagree with your statement. It's probably the same as with any country. People have differing opinions and differing views. Some want us there, some don't. I'd rather we weren't there, too. quote:FYT quote:And who do you blame? Well, lets review... quote:Kinda looks like you're using the same fall-guy I am. Not for quite the same thing or in quite the same way, but then again you didn't really enlighten us with who we obviously should blame for the mess. And if you're implying that every American who voted him into office is to blame, well then, maybe you think we should stay there since roughly half the country created the mess. But if I misunderstood your point entirely, I apologise. We can't all be as smart as you and you know very well how intelligent I am. I suggest using country bumpkin speak to succsessfully communicate with us country bumpkins. Best wishes on your next character assassination of myself. -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
Lifecrafter
Member # 7538
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 10:36
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quote:: + P = All better. You might be surprised how well it works. If you mean it as a joke, you should indicate that it is. Anyway. Hatchet buried. [ Tuesday, March 20, 2007 10:41: Message edited by: Nemesis. ] -------------------- Do not provoke the turtles. They do not like being provoked. -Lenar My website: Nemesis' Refuge Posts: 743 | Registered: Friday, September 29 2006 07:00 |
? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 10:49
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Maybe there should be an automatic "grain of salt" emoticon added to all posts. Are skins so thin that a veiled barb can cause offense? Bleagh. To paraphrase a reaction I saw on another webforum, it's time to cover up those prejudices and make pretty again. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 12:01
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The fact that humor is deadpan by default on the internet is no reason for everyone to have to add a LOL sign to funny posts. —Alorael, who supports subtlety. There's no better way to sneer at the oblivious. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 12:34
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Wow, way to give me any incentive to address anything you have to say. You throw a bunch of quotes from the Democrats - who neither I nor any major left-wing critic of the war has ever identified directly with - and then you go on to feign the vapors over being called ignorant. Well, gee, some people would call that charity - I'm not willing to assume you're evil right off the bat, but if you'd like I can jump directly to that from now on. Jewels, you're a reactionary cretin and I truly do not have time to deal with your nonsense. When I do have the time I might give your rambling pap a once-over to see if I can point out anything that makes you look like even more of a lying buffoon than usual, but I make no promises. Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 12:45
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quote:After collapse of USSR, leader of an ultra-nationalist party won third place in the first free presidential elections in Russia. (By "ultra-nationalist" I mean "gangs of young men with shaved heads who attack "non-Russian" looking people on the streets.) Ultra-nationalists had as much success in all other formerly communist countries as well. There had been about a dozen civil wars from Nagorniy Karabah to Bosnia, most of which probably never made headlines in the West. When an iron fist that held together a multi-ethnic country suddenly disappears, something has to replace it. That something is usually ultra-nationalism. (Or, in Iraqi case, sectarian fanaticism, because sects of Islam play same role in their society as ethnicity plays in Eastern Europe.) I am not sure why this always happens. Perhaps, after the old order is exposed as evil and becomes uncool, people look for something to replace it and can find that replacement only in nationalism. (If we can no longer be proud of being citizens of USSR/Yugoslavia/Iraq, we can at least be proud of being Georgians/Croats/Sunnis.) The rise of nationalism by itself might not necessarily lead to war, but when it comes together with collapse of old power structures and rise of extrimist leaders, the outcome shouldn't be surprising. Another reason why extrimist leaders tend to be so successful during such transitions is that moderates waste all their time squabbling about fine points of constitutional law, while extrimists/authoritarians are working on uniting and building up their power bases. Current situation in Russia is a good example of this fall of moderate reformers. They spent so much time attacking each other, that Putin's party got enough votes to modify the constitution to make parties eligible for Parlament seats only if they get at least 5% of votes in every province. The democratic parties are too fractionalized to pass this threshold, so there are only 3 parties in Russian parlament now: Putin's party, Communists (struggling as their supporters die of old age), and ultra-nationalists. -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
Agent
Member # 8030
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 14:04
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By Protocols of the Elders of Zion quote:I wouldn't necessarily call that nonsense, however, I do doubt Hussein having an inclination to develop WMDs since he was successfully killing people without them. You want to know what's nonsense: The whole disgusting, stupid, blasphemous, cannibalistic, immoral discussion about EATING babies. Even if that is a joke, it isn't the least bit funny. :mad: -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00 |
...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 14:21
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quote::rolleyes: Go look up blood libel, will you? -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
Infiltrator
Member # 8
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 14:29
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quote:Well I PROPOSED eating our eggs instead but nobody took to it! -------------------- "Names is for tombstones, baby." -Mr. Big Posts: 699 | Registered: Thursday, September 20 2001 07:00 |
Agent
Member # 8030
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 14:38
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By Thuryl quote:I still consider those jokes crude. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel quote:I noticed that Wikipedia referred to blood libels as unfounded allegations. -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00 |
Agent
Member # 5814
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 15:09
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quote:Well, do you know anyone who eats babies? -------------------- quote: Posts: 1115 | Registered: Sunday, May 15 2005 07:00 |
By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 15:35
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And I thought the salient point of that discussion was over the matter of great relish. *I* prefer mango chutney with my baby. LOLZ!!11! Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |