The U.S. and Iraq

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Author	Topic: The U.S. and Iraq
Excalibur Agent Member # 8030	written Thursday, March 29 2007 11:18 Profile Homepage #125 quote: I still fail to see your purpose. Really. Even if what you have read is true, how do you, as an individual, gain from this knowledge? What part of it makes you a better person? Is it something you can use to increase your lot in life? Funny that you say that. Wouldn't you care if your own government was murdering people? I just want people to know the truth, and maybe the corrupt American government can be overthrown. quote: I fear you haven't thought this through, and are fanatically following some line of dogmatic reasoning purely for the sake of feeling that you are right, they are wrong, and the world isn't fair. That statment is false. I willingly accept that I am wrong about something, and don't persist that I am (Does this have anything to do with "On the Road to Weapons of Mass Destruction"?). You act as if I was already proven wrong in this discussion, but my previous post says otherwise. I'd like to know why you thought that. -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00
Sss-Chah Apprentice Member # 8406	written Thursday, March 29 2007 11:22 Profile #126 essays. Posts: 47 \| Registered: Thursday, March 29 2007 07:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Thursday, March 29 2007 11:29 Profile #127 1. I know my government, through policy, action, and inaction, has caused many millions of people to die. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. If anything, it encourages me to be part of the human population which is less likely to be in a situation that causes me to die. 2. Let us assume you are right. That doesn't change the current situation. Millions of Americans are comfortable and will actively not seek a change in government because they are not willing to accept a downward trend in lifestyle (see Global Warming, remedies). You will therefore be on a fringe of society. You will feel righteously indignant that people can't see the truth. You will be very angry at said people. Do I have to keep going? The point is, right or wrong, the goal you seek can NEVER be reached through the two pronged attack you are using. You assign guilt to the current government (attacking them) and assign stupidity to the current citizenship (attacking them) for not seeing the guilt of the government. So, who exactly are your allies? The Branch Davidians? The skinheads in Idaho? Who? Because your argument pretty much alienates every sane person in this country. -------------------- quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing. Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Excalibur Agent Member # 8030	written Thursday, March 29 2007 11:33 Profile Homepage #128 quote: So, who exactly are your allies? The Branch Davidians? The skinheads in Idaho? Who? Because your argument pretty much alienates every sane person in this country. I have many allies, but they aren't branch davidians or skinheads; they're reasonable people who wish that the current state of things will change. -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Thursday, March 29 2007 12:19 Profile #129 quote: Originally written by Excalibur: I have many allies, but they aren't branch davidians or skinheads; they're reasonable people who wish that the current state of things will change. So you understand and agree with the other stuff I said? -------------------- quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing. Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Excalibur Agent Member # 8030	written Thursday, March 29 2007 12:22 Profile Homepage #130 I don'te agree with the other stuff you said, but I do realize that talking about what you said is going to get pointless. -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Thursday, March 29 2007 12:32 Profile #131 quote: Originally written by Excalibur: I don'te agree with the other stuff you said, but I do realize that talking about what you said is going to get pointless. Welcome to Spiderweb! -------------------- quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing. Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Student of Trinity Electric Sheep One Member # 3431	written Thursday, March 29 2007 13:30 Profile #132 Whether a CS gas grenade counts as a pyrotechnic or not is a fine technical point that can be argued either way, not a matter of the FBI getting caught lying. It is certainly not an incendiary, and is not going to ignite anything that isn't extremely inflammable. So whether or not it's a pyrotechnic isn't at all important. I got a good whiff of CS once, and I can say that it's not the tears that really bother you, it's the feeling of suffocation. But its effects disappeared pretty quickly once I got out of the cloud. The CS attack on the Koresh compound sounds like an excellent and humane plan to me, and the only way it could have started a deadly fire would be if the place had been doused with fuel from inside. The stuff about infrared images showing gunfire got me interested enough to dig around. All the claims that the FLIR films showed the FBI firing into the compound were kind of suspicious, because they all repeated exactly the same vague phrases. Then I found site with a lot of detail, including the actual IR images. I find it much more persuasive. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 \| Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00
Eugi Warrior Member # 8338	written Thursday, March 29 2007 13:56 Profile #133 Too long, didn't read. Someone please recap how the discussion about the WOI turned to Wako? Better yet, someone please explain why Wako is still relevant today. Oh, a big LULZ to any Truthers out here. Posts: 85 \| Registered: Sunday, March 18 2007 07:00
Excalibur Agent Member # 8030	written Friday, March 30 2007 08:43 Profile Homepage #134 quote: were kind of suspicious, because they all repeated exactly the same vague phrases. Then I found site with a lot of detail, including the actual IR images. I find it much more persuasive. Whether or not the FBI fired at the moment can't be proven; obviously, we just showed conflicting expert analysis. However, the FBI's behavior in explaining other things damages the credibility of this. As far as repitition of phrases, I found the same thing on both sides. The gunshot controversy is out of the picture now. quote: deadly fire would be if the place had been doused with fuel from inside. That is an interesting point. But it doesn't make sense for either side to douse the inside with fuel. It is true that Koresh was about to meet his end, but suicide wouldn't fit his claim to being the second coming of the messiah. And unkown chemical reactions with tear gas are also unlikely. Trinity, you only tried to counter two subjects, yet I gave many. You gave one link that was backed up by good sources, yet I gave four links that were backed up by numerous good sources. You should have tried to counter everything. As to Eugi, you would of known how the discussion led to Waco if you read the whole thread. And I'd like to ask what LULZ stands for. quote: Better yet, someone please explain why Wako is still relevant today. How is it not relevant? As far as history goes, that was recent. How it's relevant, is that it shows that the government is corrupt and that it needs to be changed. People let the government get away with lots of things, and that is really screwing up the U.S. -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Friday, March 30 2007 08:51 Profile Homepage #135 How is it not relevant? Virtually none of the people involved are still in the U.S. government now. That's how it's not relevant. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Excalibur Agent Member # 8030	written Friday, March 30 2007 08:56 Profile Homepage #136 As I said, the public lets the government get away with things, even though they shouldn't. "Pardoning" the government will lead to horrible conditions in the future, and then you guys will think it's relevant. ---------------------------------------------------- Protocols, who seems to have backed out of the conversation, hasn't responded. [ Friday, March 30, 2007 08:58: Message edited by: Excalibur ] -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00
Dikiyoba Councilor Member # 6600	written Friday, March 30 2007 09:07 Profile Homepage #137 Originally by Excalibur: quote: As I said, the public lets the government get away with things, even though they shouldn't. "Pardoning" the government will lead to horrible conditions in the future, and then you guys will think it's relevant. Except that every investigation, debate, documentary, etc. about Waco is resources, people, and time not being used to investigate the current administration and what it's getting away with right now. And what's happening right now has a lot more impact on the future than what happened in Waco. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 \| Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Friday, March 30 2007 09:30 Profile #138 Excalibur - You said earlier that you are willing to admit when you are wrong, and the helpful masses tried to demonstrate to you various errors in reasoning and evidence that you have either made or accepted. I have realized that the only solution that you would accept is if you (or your fellow anti-government conspirators) were given control over the federal government. That is a difficult pill to swallow, and I'm not completely sure that your government would retain the very artifacts of freedom that have allowed you and yours to promulgate your hate, distrust, and fear of the government. So I have to ask, if it came to pass that your little militia ended up in control of the US government, and there was a fringe group out there that perhaps had a different view, would you allow them to exist? Or would you allow them to florish, accepting that one day they may overthrow your "corrupt" regime? In the meantime, I'll do some searching on Winnemucca, militia, freedom fighters, and the like, and see if there is any compelling reason to mention your existence to those very powers you fear so deeply. :) -------------------- quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing. Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Friday, March 30 2007 09:31 Profile Homepage #139 There are plenty of awful things the current administration has done. Are we supposed to debate Watergate and the Gulf of Tonkin incident as well? I'm all for holding people accountable when they have done wrong, but there just isn't any convincing evidence that higher levels of government committed anything worse at Waco than a few errors of judgment, errors of judgment that shouldn't have been made, but errors of judgment nonetheless. Look, you want someone to do a point-by-point at you? I'll do it. quote: Originally written by Excalibur: As far as the incineary bombs go; the video proves they used them, and one officer there admitted during an interview that he was ordered to order incineary bombs. This has already been debunked in this thread. quote: The man's name is Glen Stoll (might me mispelled) and he was the person who interviewed the officer I mentioned earlier. A quick Google search on Glen Stoll gives me every reason to distrust everything that the man might ever say. quote: quote: the ATF bulldozed the site, rendering further gathering of forensic evidence impossible. Very, Very, suspicious. You remind me of the Snopes link. I'll presume, just on the basis of the pattern in your thinking, that there exists some obvious reason to bulldoze the site, a reason that you either haven't bothered to look up or that you aren't aware of because you haven't even thought to check the most obvious relevant details. Just stating that something is suspicious doesn't prove anything. You haven't even provided evidence of anything. You've just shown a lack of evidence. quote: quote: In January, 1999 Mr Cox challenged FBI director Louis Freeh and FBI scientists to dispute his findings. There was no response. So what are they hiding? I might equally write an open letter to George W. Bush challenging that he was lying about he reasons for going to war in Iraq and, upon receiving no response, shout, "WHAT ARE YOU HIDING?!?!?!/1/1/1/1" Some idiocy doesn't deserve being dignified with a response, and apparently this was how the FBI viewed your "source." quote: quote: The documentary also shows infra-red footage demonstrating that the FBI likely used incendiary devices Wikipedia doesn't get their stuff from nowhere Again, this has already been debunked. Wikipedia is a good first check, but it's not the definitive answer on everything, because, after all, it is edited by people like you and me. I could go on Wikipedia right now and edit it to say that it is obvious that there was no government wrongdoing in Waco. Would you then believe me? quote: quote: At around noon, three fires started almost simultaneously in different parts of the building. Even then, as the fire spread, only nine people left the building Koresh didn't really have power over them then, so why didn't they leave. Don't be stupid. Koresh wasn't physically restraining them, but can you say that their prophet didn't have power over them? They were part of a messianic cult. Besides, in emergency situations like this, people tend not to have all the information ("That way is collapsed, but this way is still open, and we won't get shot — either by our own or by the FBI — if we run out this way") and tend not to be able to make really logical decisions. Even the most rational people would've had trouble figuring out how to stay alive when smothered in tear gas and surrounded by armed men and flames, and let me remind you again, we're talking about the members of a messianic cult; they were not all that rational to begin with. Maybe some of them preferred to die, and maybe some of them weren't given a choice by those around them. quote: quote: Since the FBI now admits that this testimony was false, many deem the Danforth Report conclusions to be less than reliable. So you believe false testimony? I'm not sure that anyone has relied on the specific testimony that you're talking about. I fail to see the relevance of this point, other than, again, that we lack evidence for some things. But lacking evidence doesn't prove anything. quote: quote: Between 1993 and 1999, FBI spokesmen denied (even under oath) the use of any sort of pyrotechnic devices during the assault, even though Flite-Rite CS gas grenades had been found in the rubble immediately following the fire. So these grenades just appeared there? This, too, has been debunked. Are these "pyrotechnic" devices or not? That's a technical point. Besides, they're gas grenades, not the standard fragmentation or concussion grenades, so they don't explode. They didn't ignite the fires. quote: quote: The FBI has also admitted to using incendiary.. Again, use of incindeary devices. Where are you getting this from, Protocols. Um, the full line is this: "The FBI has also admitted to using incendiary flares during the stand-off to illuminate areas at night, but claims not to have used illumination flares during the assault, all of which took place during daylight hours." Flares during the night, you dolt, not incendiary devices to burn the place down during the assault. quote: quote: Several documentaries suggest that the FBI fired weapons into the building, which the FBI denies. The main evidence for gunfire is bright flashes in aerial infra-red recordings from Forward looking infrared (FLIR) cameras on government aircraft flying overhead. Edward Allard, a former government specialist on infra-red imagery, submitted an affidavit in which he declared that the video revealed bursts of automatic gunfire coming from government agents. Another independent FLIR expert, Carlos Ghigliotti, also confirms gunfire, when shown the original video kept by government officials. The FBI lying, again. This, too, has been debunked. It's actually you lying, not the FBI. You have really only made two claims: 1. The FBI set incendiary devices that caused the fires that ended up killing most of the cult. 2. The FBI shot at people specifically to prevent them from getting out of the fires. Both claims have been debunked in this thread already, so there really was no need for a point-by-point, but you've got it here so that you can't complain that no one is addressing your points. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Excalibur Agent Member # 8030	written Friday, March 30 2007 09:57 Profile Homepage #140 Thank you Malakos. I'd like to go on to other things, but for the sake of everyones sanity, I won't. This person has a lot of stuff on Waco. http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.massacre.html#I.1 [ Friday, March 30, 2007 10:01: Message edited by: Excalibur ] -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 \| Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Friday, March 30 2007 10:09 Profile #141 I find it intriguing that the guy referenced by SoT, debunking the machine-gun-massacre, is related to a group that is interested in bringing Justice to the Justice Dept for the Branch Davidian holiday. See link for more info. -------------------- quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing. Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Kelandon Off With Their Heads Member # 4045	written Friday, March 30 2007 11:43 Profile Homepage #142 By the way, Excalibur, the guy you've been calling "Protocols" is actually known around here as "Alec," and I'm actually known as "Kelandon" (or just "Kel" most of the time). People's displayed names change all the time on Spidweb, so we have to have constant names to refer to people. I didn't want to point this out at the time because I thought it might sound petty or something. :P [ Friday, March 30, 2007 11:44: Message edited by: Malakos the Freshly-Plowed ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 \| Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00
Thuryl ...b10010b... Member # 869	written Friday, March 30 2007 13:00 Profile Homepage #143 quote: Originally written by Excalibur: That is an interesting point. But it doesn't make sense for either side to douse the inside with fuel. It is true that Koresh was about to meet his end, but suicide wouldn't fit his claim to being the second coming of the messiah. He wouldn't exactly be the first self-styled messiah to display hypocritical self-destructive behaviour. Remember Jim Jones? quote: Originally written by Malakos the Freshly-Plowed: You remind me of the Snopes link. I'll presume, just on the basis of the pattern in your thinking, that there exists some obvious reason to bulldoze the site, a reason that you either haven't bothered to look up or that you aren't aware of because you haven't even thought to check the most obvious relevant details. Specifically: when a building is gutted by fire, it has to be bulldozed for safety reasons, so someone doesn't try to camp out in it and have the roof fall on their head. This is standard procedure. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 \| Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Friday, March 30 2007 14:06 Profile #144 quote: Originally written by Thuryl: Specifically: when a building is gutted by fire, it has to be bulldozed for safety reasons, so someone doesn't try to camp out in it and have the roof fall on their head. This is standard procedure. I assure you that it is a precautionary measure aimed not against flithy hippies, but fire trolls. They are the little creatures which inhabit dangerous firestormed buildings and will eat you if you try to camp in the building. And then they jump up and down on the roof until it collapses on you. Filthy buggers really. -------------------- quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing. Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
upon mars Canned Member # 7704	written Friday, March 30 2007 20:40 Profile #145 Pornography, please is an easy way of obtaing money for countries. If it wasn't there wouldn't be so: no strip clubs in major cities. Governments try to occupy us to stop thinking about conspiracies . The war in iraq is a failure and a victory . All of Europe and the united states participated in the war causing increased inflation,deaths ,military control of the so called "middle east and it broke the oil tables. Men,women,children,elderly and handicaps have suffered and died because of this. Should we siege in front of the white house waiting the impossible? We can't win. And to those who don't believe me on the internet point: The internet is a series of mass devices used for mass media and communication. America and europe with various country fight terrorism with internet. So then how do they do it? they hack into suspect users and then if he/she is too suspicious they call soldiers to beat him/she up for being a suspect. Suspects are guilty if they weren't they would not be suspects But then do people abuse of their power? They abuse of their power because it suits themselves. People are not as incompetent nor stupid nor clumsy as you think. Why bush demanded that internet server kept records after 9/11 it not bee examine or sifted the accumulated evidence if need will be used. Are phones tap? But the as you might ask :Why login onto the internet if it's not safe? We all know the answer to that one. [ Friday, March 30, 2007 21:14: Message edited by: upon mars ] -------------------- You can jump off a bridge, fire a gun in your mouth, drink poison,or going in to the tiger's pit but you will still end up dead it's a mater of time and how . Posts: 312 \| Registered: Sunday, November 26 2006 08:00
Jumpin Salmon ? Man, ? Amazing Member # 5755	written Friday, March 30 2007 21:06 Profile #146 Finally, someone that is completely comfortable with their insanity. -------------------- quote: Originally written by Kelandon: Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing. Posts: 4114 \| Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
Ephesos Law Bringer Member # 4153	written Friday, March 30 2007 21:07 Profile Homepage #147 quote: Originally written by upon mars: (this was in the post before it got edited, I swear) I think that the last oil reserves are in russian hands or sinking away in the desert. No. Venezuela has huge reserves, as does Canada. And there are plenty of countries with significant reserves. So, you thought wrong. quote: All of Europe ... participated in the war Just plain wrong. Most of the major European nations didn't participate. Not to belittle Poland and Macedonia, but Germany does get a bit more regard in the international community at this point in time. quote: causing increased inflation, deaths, military control of the so called "middle east So-called? What? I can't argue with the increased inflation and death toll, however. quote: and it broke the oil tables. I'm really curious as to how one does this. I don't think even we could figure out a way to "break" the oil tables... quote: [b]Men,women,children,elderly and handicaps have suffered and died because of this. [/b] Okay, now you're just making pointless emotional pleas. Not to mention that you've covered pretty much every demographic, and that some civilian casualties are inevitable in the type of conflict we've stumbled into. Not that I support that, just wanted to point out the holes in the logic. quote: [b]Should we siege in front of the white house (wanting?) the impossible? We can't win. [/b] Erm... have you got a better idea? 'Cause if you do, tell us. When the elected representatives stop listening to the electorate, some form of protest is necessary to try and keep 'em honest. Not necessarily picketing-outside-W's-window-protesting, but something. Heck, an angry letter. quote: And to those who don't believe me on the internet point: The internet is a series of tubes. And if you don't understand those tubes can be filled and if they are filled, when you put your message in, it gets in line and it's going to be delayed by anyone that puts into that tube enormous amounts of material, enormous amounts of material. FYT. quote: America and europe with various country fight terrorism with internet. So then how do they do it? the hack into suspect users and then if he is too suspicious they call soldiers to beat him/her up for being a suspect. But then do they abuse of their power? What? quote: People are not as incompetent nor stupid nor clumsy as you think. Yes, in fact they often are. quote: But the as you might ask :Why login onto the internet if it's not safe? We all know the answer to that one. ...erm, there are a million answers that I want to shout out right now, but most would be inappropriate. quote: Are phones tap? I don't know... are phones tap? quote: Pornography please it's an easy way of opting money for countries. If it wasn't there wouldn't be any strip clubs in major cities. Governments try to occupy us to stop thinking about consipracies . Where did this point come from? upon, please take the tinfoil hat off for a moment and look at what you're saying. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 \| Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00
upon mars Canned Member # 7704	written Friday, March 30 2007 21:11 Profile #148 Who isn't comfortable with craziness? On this planet to eat or to be eaten, it's very difficult to be sane. And what about selling weapons isn't that contribution to a conflict so as trading with the countries at war? So the whole of europe is contributing to the conflict. Then they are at war against iraq even if they don't like it. The internet is used to fight terrorism. People hack computers to extrabolate information. So they would use the information to charge some one with something. I think that we should have the right to remove a president that is abusing us in front of our noses. [ Friday, March 30, 2007 21:31: Message edited by: upon mars ] -------------------- You can jump off a bridge, fire a gun in your mouth, drink poison,or going in to the tiger's pit but you will still end up dead it's a mater of time and how . Posts: 312 \| Registered: Sunday, November 26 2006 08:00
Tramist Warrior Member # 5310	written Saturday, March 31 2007 14:26 Profile #149 And who would suceed him? There is absolutely no assurance the next guy in charge would be any better. And a rebbelion is much more than just forcing the government to resign. I don't think it is possible to just change the leader, the system would most likely be changed. Posts: 57 \| Registered: Monday, December 20 2004 08:00