The U.S. and Iraq
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 15:38
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While you're at it, read Swift's A Modest Proposal (or at the very least the Wikipedia summary). Eating babies has a long and good literary history. :P -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Tuesday, March 20 2007 15:45
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I used to think that too, about the mango chutney, until I tried a very nice cream sauce. OMG was that good. I've also had luck with our homemade mint jelly. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 3364
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written Wednesday, March 21 2007 07:12
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quote:You are so good at blowing smoke! And I bet some people automatically believe your bull just because of how vehemently you say it. So I guess Hillary is not a major left-wing critic of the war. She's only running for president next term and calling for an immediate pull out. And I also guess that she has never directly identified with herself. Really, I could understand why she would want to but I doubt that it's true. A simple tldr probably would have saved you some more of that precious time that you don't have to waste on me. -------------------- "Even the worst Terror from Hell can be transformed to a testimony from Heaven!" - Rev. David Wood 6\23\05 "Do all the good you can, by all the means you can, in all the ways you can, in all the places you can, at all the times you can, to all the people you can, as long as you ever can." - John Wesley Posts: 1001 | Registered: Tuesday, August 19 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 8030
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written Wednesday, March 21 2007 13:57
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Debates are fun, arguements are annoying. By Jewels quote:I'm sure Hillary would be just as bad as Bill. For some reason, I doubt that any of these canidates would actually pull out of Iraq right away. -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Wednesday, March 21 2007 18:04
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Both Clintons are Democrats. Democrats are left of the Republican right, but the real left, which has no major political party on its side, rejects the Democrats as being too close to center. Alec's in that camp. —Alorael, who loves a good discussion that ends in refusal to discuss. There's no better way to advance politics. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, March 22 2007 00:32
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Somewhere I read this argument about how anyone who wants to change the United States has to work through the American two-party system: If you can't convince a majority of any half the people, how do you think you can convince a majority of them all? The point is that, apart from the general tendency of Democrats to be leftward from Republicans, both parties are ideological mercenaries, and will gradually swing around to any sufficiently popular platform that they can claim. So proclaiming oneself to be outside the two-party system amounts to proclaiming satisfaction with irrelevancy, or disdain for democracy. Obviously not all truth is to be found within the two parties. But if you're left of the Democrats, and serious about accomplishing something, then I would think that the thing to do would be to emphasize the voices within the Democratic Party that are swinging your way. Or point out how much of the main Democratic platform is actually consistent with your own views, and is only being warped out of line by a few ill-fitting planks that had better be replaced. The Democrats aren't this irrelevant party that you're ignoring. They're the party that you are going to take over. Right? -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, March 22 2007 04:08
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That's an interesting perspective. Under that ideology, though, I would expect a sort of fractal system of political parties, with the democrats subdivided into two other parties and each of those subdivided into two more, and so on. Actually, that would be kind of interesting. Binary tree politics. Instead of incumbents we would just have iterative candidates. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Thursday, March 22 2007 04:52
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To some extent that does happen, and every party has multiple wings. But past that point, parties exert discipline and mount single official platforms, so that at least those things have a chance of getting done. The trick is to move your set of views, within a party, from minority wing to official policy. That may not be quick or easy, but it has got to be quicker and easier than simply starting from scratch, trying to mobilize the population from outside the two party system. And if you ever did succeed in building a popular movement from outside, you can bet that one or both of the two parties would steal your platform the moment it started getting popular. So you may as well get inside early. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, March 22 2007 06:52
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You know, there are places in the world where multiparty systems more or less work. Hell, they'd even have a voice in America if the American electoral system weren't just about as biased against them as is possible without explicitly setting out to exclude them. FPTP is a horrible system to start with, the electoral college only makes it worse, and giving the people a choice between two options every four years is a poor substitute for democracy. I've always favoured appointing officials by lot. It's the only way to get a truly representative sample of public opinion. [ Thursday, March 22, 2007 06:57: Message edited by: Thuryl ] -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Thursday, March 22 2007 07:38
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While multi-party systems sound good in theory, in reality the resulting government often ends up even further from average public opinion than under two party system. The problem is that while you still have your major liberal party that gets about 25-35% of votes and your major conservative party that gets 25-35% of votes, neither has enough votes to form the government. So they have to include a lot of small single-issue (special interest) and radical parties into their coalition. So instead of government leaning towards the center, as it does under a two party system, you end up with the government leaning towards the extremes. As for mainstream parties absorbing popular issues into their platforms, that has happened many times in the past: anti-trust legislature and income tax are the first examples that come to mind. These issues were originally championed by small parties, but were picked up by mainsteam ones after gaining sufficient acceptance. PS I like the way SoT put it: You need to convince less than 1/4 of the total voters to win a major party's primary. If you can't do even that, how can you expect to win in a democratic system? [ Thursday, March 22, 2007 07:42: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, March 22 2007 08:15
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quote:Yeah, me too, but for different reasons. I don't really give a damn about a representative sample of public opinion. I do think that having an official be answerable to the people is a good thing, and that's what modern democracies try to do, but that's the only concern I have for voting at all. I like this idea because I like the idea of government by the people. I think that people would learn a lot by participating in the government that they so stridently criticize all the time. quote:Less, even, given voter turnout in the primaries. The numbers of registered Democrats, Republicans, and independents are roughly equal in the U.S. (a third of each), and voter turnout is less than half of registered voters even for the main presidential elections — it can be a third or less at primaries — so convincing 5%-10% of the registered voters can be sufficient to win a primary. This is why the conventional wisdom says to play to the extremes in primaries, because you can win with a fairly small fraction of the population. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 8030
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written Friday, March 23 2007 13:39
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The problem with this system used in America, is that only Democrats and Republicans are likely to win presidential elections. People won't vote for Independent, Libetarian, Green Party, etc. because they say they won't vote for someone who isn't going to win. How hypocritical! If people say that, they won't win; if they didn't say that they would win. For that reason, candidates from these parties try to run as a Democrat or Republican, but then they're very unlikely to win. Which means that Ron Paul probably won't win. :( -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Friday, March 23 2007 14:49
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Actually, the fact that an increasing number of Americans are in favor of a social safety net has more to do with the poor showing of Liberatarians than any other single factor. -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Electric Sheep One
Member # 3431
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written Saturday, March 24 2007 04:53
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quote:But this is just the point: if a Libertarian has some policies they want to enact, they are perfectly free to persuade a majority of either Democrats or Republicans that the policies are good, and bingo, their ideas are in the platform of one of the two major parties. A third party member who complains about having no chances beyond running a distant third is someone who admits they can't persuade half of the people, but still thinks they could persuade all the people if they only had a chance. -------------------- We're not doing cool. We're doing pretty. Posts: 3335 | Registered: Thursday, September 4 2003 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 8030
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written Saturday, March 24 2007 14:31
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And has any backwater party ever convinced Democrats or Republicans to accept their opinions? -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, March 24 2007 15:12
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quote: quote: -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 8030
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written Saturday, March 24 2007 15:18
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That didn't really answer my question. -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00 |
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Apprentice
Member # 8316
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written Saturday, March 24 2007 15:24
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NO OFFENCE TO ANYBODY!!!!!!!!! But in my opinyon Bush sucks all around! Posts: 15 | Registered: Thursday, March 15 2007 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6403
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written Saturday, March 24 2007 21:07
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And that's why your opinion is wrong. And do you get just how stupid saying "no offense" and then offending someone sounds? Saying "no offense" is not leeway to say whatever you want. It is an apology in advance to whomever you do insult with a generally harmless statement. [ Saturday, March 24, 2007 21:09: Message edited by: radix malorum est cupiditas ] -------------------- ??? ?????? ???? ????? Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 8030
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 11:51
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By Narmoth Spear quote:Saying no offense isn't necessary, since most people don't like Bush in the first place. -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00 |
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Canned
Member # 8014
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 11:59
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quote:Of course. The day Bush is kicked out of the White House forever is the day I celebrate! Edit -Spacing error [ Sunday, March 25, 2007 12:01: Message edited by: Infernal Flamming Muffin ] -------------------- I can transform into almost anything, though not sanity. Muffins n' Hell. Note that revisions of the first part is down the list. Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 8030
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 12:16
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quote:I wonder how long these boards will actually last. -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00 |
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Canned
Member # 8014
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 12:29
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That is part of my sig. -------------------- I can transform into almost anything, though not sanity. Muffins n' Hell. Note that revisions of the first part is down the list. Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 8030
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 12:31
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As if I didn't know that. It's not like I was quoting part of your soul. So how long will these boards last. -------------------- WWJD? Posts: 1384 | Registered: Tuesday, February 6 2007 08:00 |
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Canned
Member # 8014
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written Sunday, March 25 2007 12:46
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When Jeff goes, the company goes, the boards go. Which is probably before 2084. But it is to show my loyalty to Spiderweb Software. Then again, the boards can still continue. [ Sunday, March 25, 2007 12:47: Message edited by: Infernal Flamming Muffin ] -------------------- I can transform into almost anything, though not sanity. Muffins n' Hell. Note that revisions of the first part is down the list. Posts: 1799 | Registered: Sunday, February 4 2007 08:00 |