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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 14:37
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Originally by Delicious Vlish: quote:Dikiyoba got it. Who's the other one? :P Edit: Added quote for new page. [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 14:39: Message edited by: Dikiyoba ] Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 14:37
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quote:Pardon me for reading this as a flaming load of bovine leavings... it's much better to teach the kids being bullied how to fight back, or at least take it in stride. I'd rather make a big chunk of the population more assertive than make a few individuals more passive. EDIT: I missed the reference completely. [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 14:38: Message edited by: Ephesos ] -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 3040
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 14:40
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quote:By your definition, I think no one would have strength of character, at least the way the scene was originally written (George Orwell's 1984). Wasn't the whole point, that rats were the absolute worst thing in the world to be faced with, and that anyone in Winston Smith's position would have done the same? Also, you didn't actually explicitly make the connection, that you believe fighting back against bullies as a child is what leads to being able to withstand the rats. Nevertheless, I'm going to infer that that is what you actually meant in this case, and I'm going to say that while fighting back may or may not be a sufficient condition for strength of character in this scenario, it is not a necessary condition. -------------------- 5.0.1.0.0.0.0.1.0... Posts: 508 | Registered: Thursday, May 29 2003 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 14:46
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Previous to that point, Winston had never had to face up to his fear. He had led a sheltered life, so to speak. Somebody used to hardship, accustomed to fear, and all to familiar with pain might be able to endure. Somebody aware of what their body was capable of, they have a better chance of pulling it off. If I had to choose between the rats, or my worst fear, and my wife, I would choose the rats. Oh, another important thing to remember. You will always have freedom of choice, but never freedom from choice. If you are gonna go, go with a bang. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 15:02
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DV, I apologise for the tone of my previous post; I seriously misjudged you. I know it's important to you to believe that your suffering was meaningful, that it's made you a better person; it's something I see a lot in survivors of abuse. But most of the time suffering doesn't make people better. Most of the time it just hurts and doesn't do any good for anyone. If you think it's okay for people to be hurt so that they'll deal with it better when they get hurt again later, you've already resigned yourself to the fact that they're going to keep getting hurt again and again. That's not acceptable to me. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 15:30
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quote:It's starting to piss me off when you get to thinking. :D -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 15:32
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quote:Ah, but that is life. That is the human condition. That is how it is. "Abuse" has left me empowered. I no longer care much for what others think. I am well beyond any of that. Which is why I can wear kilts in public or pretty much do whatever the hell I please with no hangups. And I do so in the small minded redneck infested South. Racism, elitism, bullies, all of these are a fact of life. There is no addressing the issue of what causes them... That is a bunch of crap and everybody knows it. You can not use these things as an excuse to hold back or to live your life in fear. You must reach the point where you realise; they have NO power over you. You can not always control how other people are, and the world does not conform to whatever you think it should be. All you can do is make due for your self and hold your self accountable. Be personally responsible. Ultimately, YOU ARE ACCOUNTABLE FOR YOUR SELF. End of story. You can natter on endlessly about how bullies shouldn't do this, or racists shouldn't do that, and you can talk your self to death about whatever psychobabble you want to make your self feel more comfortable as a target... Or you can just rise above it. It really is that simple. People would rather turn to the psychobabble about why bullies do this, and why bullies do that, and they are willing to do anything and everything to place the problem on somebody or something else... Rather than place it on their own shoulders out of self pity or doubt. Or whatever their reason. While there are circumstances where somebody might need help, in most average situations a person should be able to take care of themselves, provided they are raised in such a way that encourages them to stick up for themselves. Bullies thrive on people and situations that have no power of their own. Going for help typically reinforces this problem. Dealing with it your self is taking power over the situation. Even if you get your butt kicked. If you make it difficult for your oppressor to deal with you, if you make it cost them enough effort, they will move on and find better targets. Even better, if you break them down, humiliate them publicly, and rob them of their power, it usually breaks them completely. I have seen that countless times. I don't mean fighting back, I mean beating the unholy hell out of them and doing it in front of all the people that they bully. Said bully will never be able to look at those people ever again in the eye with out remembering what happened, and that all these people saw. The humiliation and the shame eats them up inside. Breaks them down. All of their power is gone, their fuel, their power source, they have no fear to draw from, but they themselves are now the ones feeling all of the fear and shame they had made their victims feel. In the end, the world is not perfect. There are no promises of safety, security, or protection. There is only whatever you make for your self, that is it, end of story. And once you secure something for your self, then you make the world a better place around you by serving and protecting everybody weaker and smaller than you are. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 15:49
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Mmh...you know how diamonds are created, under high pressure and very high temperature. If you see the diamond as a symbol of a person's very essence, extreme adversity can be the forge that brings it forth, meaning: that makes you aware of what you most deeply are. But this is not a path that everyone can follow without perishing, DV. If you win through, you bring back something indestructable - but if not, than you have those who, if they survive will draw hurt to them, because they expect it. -------------------- Polaris Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done Rache's A3 Site, original version Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 15:53
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quote:Perhaps. I can't argue that. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 15:55
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You need deep passion for this path, agree? -------------------- Polaris Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done Rache's A3 Site, original version Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 16:00
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quote:I do not know actually. I would venture a guess that it varies from person to person. But passion would help. Passion for others, passion over a cause, a feeling perhaps. It is better to resist and be broken than it is to never resist at all. I still do not even know what it is that drives me to that point. But I can say my upbringing had a great deal to do with whatever it is that motivates me, drives me. I exist with a strong desire to do the greater good, no matter the cost. There is still a lot I don't know or understand. But I don't need to know or understand everything to be content. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 16:06
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It was starting to bug me. I knew I had seen the dreadlocked kilt wearing guy somewhere.  -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 16:08
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Let's stop for a moment to go back to original question. I just want to make it clear that nobody is saying that children should intentionally be hurt as much as possible to "develop their character". If a student complains that he is being bullied, the teacher should take action. However, children shouldn't be locked in glass houses with strictly regimented routines either. Just let kids be kids and if a boy hurts himself falling from a playground ladder, he'll know to better judge the risks next time. PS Talking about even more obscure references I wonder if more than two people will understand "glass houses with strictly regimented routines". -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 16:09
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quote:As a professional it would be part of my task to help build up strength that prevents breaking, but as just myself I fully agree. -------------------- Polaris Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done Rache's A3 Site, original version Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 16:19
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quote:Not to mention the 20 kids that witness it and are able to process the scene in a manner which teaches them a valuable lesson. Still better if the kid that fell turns around and climbs back up on that ladder but does it right the second time and succeeds. Edit - Is it a good one? I was unfamiliar with the reference so I looked it up. Does it belong on the list of future purchases at Powell's? [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 16:22: Message edited by: Spammin' Salmon ] -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 19:16
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Originally by Zeviz: quote:Dikiyoba is now two for two. Wheeeeeee! Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 19:46
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[Edit: Oops! I somehow didn't see this page.] More than one or two, I'd hope. I also think that it's pretty clear that any gesture of resistance there would have been futile and you're pretty broken at that point anyway. Everyone has limits, and for some of us it's rats. I see two different issues here. One is coddling from all impersonal danger. To a degree protection is good, but it's gone too far. Kids deserve a chance to play on their own, roughhouse, and maybe get some scrapes and bruises. Doing it on something safer than cement is good, but you can't protect everyone from every abrasion, nor should you. Protecting kids from malice is another problem entirely. I'm not sure I agree with DV; it's necessary to know your limits, but I don't think it requires a no holds barred world. For knowing how to take physical action, why not give everyone training in some martial art. (The need for all the ritual and discipline that comes with the training is argued, but I can't see how it hurts.) —Alorael, who thinks that learning to deal with nasty people, bullies, and idiots is part of learning how to be social. If you don't get through that part of your childhood you're going to have problems. On the other hand there comes a point at which it's no longer a learning experience and it is instead a truly harmful one, and at that point intervention is necessary. [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 21:34: Message edited by: Burning Shiv ] Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 6785
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 19:57
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Last season The Simpsons had an episode showing the absurb lengths that Ned Flanders went to in order to protect his children. Bubble wrapping the trees was funny to watch, but children shouldn't have to be that protected. It's a matter of properly instructing children and supervising them to insure that they don't suffer major damage. After all I've known kids that have broken a leg falling off a curb crossing a street. Should we cushion the roads to protect them? Posts: 4643 | Registered: Friday, February 10 2006 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 20:02
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quote:Unsure. Agree. Agree. Agree. I do not advocate a no holds barred sort of world. Help is good if things get to out of hand. But I will say that help shouldn't be solving the child's problem for them. Help should be giving the child the tools, the skills, and the ability to solve the problem for themselves. Have a problem with bullies? Boxing lessons. Martial arts. Lessons in being assertive. Problem solving skills of all kinds. Lessons in wit. Something. Anything. Anything but actually stepping in and cleaning up their mess for them, unless it is absolutely needed. As in there is no other way for the child to solve the problem on their own. Stepping in and fixing the child's problem for them only reinforces the victim status mentality. Teaching them how to solve their own problem gives them the self esteem, the confidence, the courage, and the ability to solve the next problem that comes up for themselves. After a few times, it is no longer a learning experience, but a refining experience where a child can hone their skills to suit whatever abilities they have. Step in and solve the child's problems for them, and you rob them of this valuable and important life lesson. They will go through life dependant on any authority figures around them, and may even go to further extremes such as co-dependancy or other social disorders. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 20:05
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quote:Pardon me, but no -- there's nothing bovine about that remark at all. If someone can't handle a bully, they need to learn how to do that; but the bully also needs to learn how to have positive social interactions. It's a basic life skill and it's hard to function without it. Most people don't think of it as a skill because it comes naturally, but it really is a skill and for some children it seems impossible to achieve. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2836
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 20:20
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Well, at my school currently there aren't any bullies (at least not in my year.) Thank goodness. But even if there were, I don't think I'd be able to defend myself. I have this thing with pain. Perhaps this is just me being ridiculous, but I seem to get hurt easier than other people. Which is why I don't like fighting. Posts: 587 | Registered: Tuesday, April 1 2003 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 21:55
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quote:While I'm not a counselor, I play one on TV. Your issues with pain may not be with pain so much as with all the emotions that go along with pain. Fear and embarassment are two huge emotions, and being bullied can really start them going. I would recommend actually verifying this theory. Very few people are ultrasensative to injury, and if you are one of them then you will need to take precaution. But there are still ways and methods for dealing with a bully that never even come close to fights. First I would recommend talking with every other kid that is getting bullied. Form a pact that if any one of you is getting intimidated that all of the rest will show up as a pack and basically force the bully to back down. If that works, be aware that a devoted bully will try to figure out ways to git you when you are alone. Count on it. Use it. Contact an adult that you trust and has the physical ability to mess that kid up. Like scary messed up. Do you know any bikers? They work well. Anyhow, tell this adult that you are going to be walking home alone, tell them the route, and ask them to watch you and to beat the **** out of the bully if they start it with you. Make sure that they are rescueing you from an attact. Then, get the courts involved, press assault charges. Put it in the newspapers. Embarass this bully like s/he embarassed you. Have your biker friend whisper into the bullies ear "If you ever **** with any kid again I'll take you and cut you and use you for shark bait." That should pretty much take care of the bullying, the self-esteem problems (because you will be pretty damn popular in school), and if you are really lucky your friend will offer to take you shark fishing one day. ps. I'm really not on TV. Didn't want you to think you were talking to a celebrity or anything. :P -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Friday, November 3 2006 05:58
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quote:It is important to teach children that bullying is not acceptable and you need to respond to it rather than accept it. I disagree with your simplistic analysis of how to stop bully behaviour. Fighting back may solve the problem for you IF you end up being stronger/smarter than the bully (not always the case) but likely will not stop the bully behaviour from expressing himself/herself on others. Part of self respect is to not allow others to do to you what is unacceptable for you to do to others. Taking it in stride - whoa - if the behaviour is wrong than it is unacceptable to "take it" at all. Opposing bullying (and this also relates to comments below) in an active way allows the victim to be assertive over their circumstances. Be active, find a solution/find someone who can assist you in creating a solution. quote:My comments regarding modifying bully behaviour has little to do with making individuals less assertive/more passive. There are proper ways to act and improper ways to act. One needs to learn to channel aggressiveness into constructive behaviour. Its interesting to note that psychopathics and those that successfully run large corporations often share similar traits. "Bullies" can be effective leaders and society does need some with those aggressive traits. Bullying is an unacceptable social quality that should be opposed and we should stop focussing on the victims and what they did wrong/failed to do that resulted in them being bullied. Rather focus on the individual(s) who are breaking a societal norm. -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Friday, November 3 2006 08:44
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quote:I disagree strongly. There are only actions, and everything else is relative. quote:Okay, so the social norm should include the passivity required to give potential bullies targets? I don't see why we can't change the societal norm. I think you're missing my point. I'd rather raise the social norm than drag a few individuals kicking and screaming towards it. And the channelling aggressiveness? More textbook child psychology. I don't have a good response to it, because it just makes me angry... maybe I'll think up a good one later. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Friday, November 3 2006 09:33
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quote:May I ask which 'strong straight forward moral conviction' exactly makes it OK for one kid to whallop another with something heavy because he started it? quote:I was beaten up by a long procession of smaller, weaker jackasses in elementary and middle school. When I reported it to the authorities, they generally smiled and nodded, confident in my ability to handle it because I was the bigger kid in the situation. I was jumped by five kids in the sixth grade and they each got a required-parent-conference suspension, maximum 3 days. (This is the least strict punishment the school is allowed to give for fighting.) Apparently because the school could find no pretense under which to officially punish me, I was put in a counseling group with kids who burned things for an hour a day. But that, I suppose, is my fault. Please excuse me if I find your philosophy of peace through superior firepower repugnant; I have personal as well as ethical reasons for that. quote:I'd respect you a lot more if you didn't maunder like a new age guru with a head wound. Just wanted to let you know. [ Friday, November 03, 2006 09:51: Message edited by: The Worst Man Ever ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |