No tag backs!
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Wednesday, November 1 2006 23:29
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quote:You would be horrified by how I handle children. Minor dents, dings, bumps, and bruises seem to just appear when I return them to their parents. Maybe it is that I let the dog babysit while I do other stuff? -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Wednesday, November 1 2006 23:56
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Alec and Aran, I guess you'd have a heart attack seeing the kind of playground equipment we've had. The scariest one I can remember was a set of two vertical ladders and two climbing poles connected by a horizontal bar at the top. The idea was to climb up one ladder, hang on the horizontal bar "walking" across to the other, and climb down. (And I have to admit, I never worked up the courage to do the hanging part.) The scary part was that ledders were several times taller than an adult (about 8-10 meters I'd guess) and the ground under them was very hard. That piece of equipment was obviously targeted at older kids, but things for smaller children were equally dangerous. As for parental supervision, for kids like Salmon and DV there really was none. Even for kids like me, living in cities with obsessive parents, there is not much a parent can do if a kid falls to the ground from the top of a playground ladder (different than the one I've described above) and almost breaks his back. However, that was expected part of being a kid. The emergency room to which they took me was full of kids who got hurt while playing and the doctor said after examination "don't worry: nothing is broken and kids always fall". It's too late in the evening for a philosophical discussion, so I'll just say that despite some back problems that I still have I am glad that my childhood, despite being relatively sheltered, was still much more human than the incubators into which they seem to be turning modern American schools. (I still can't believe some people took seriously my suggestion to ban bikes and rollerskates.) EDIT: Stew Boy, about bullies, I know it's always easy to give advice, but from personal experience, if a weak kid who never fights back one day picks up a stick that was thrown at him and hits the bully in the stomach so hard that he bends over in pain, the bully is likely to stay away in the future. Unlike DV, I don't think there is anything wrong with complaining to authorities (and that often is the most effective course of action), but sometimes your only option is to fight back. And if you've never done this before, it's going to be much more scary for the guy against whom you'll fight back, because he will not be expecting anything like this. [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 00:11: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 00:36
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quote:We're all somebody's children. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 00:36
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Maybe I was weird, but scraped knees were cool! I used to go back in from recess and show off my wounds. About once a year there would be an ambulance called to tend to someone who broke something. I'm a firm believer in hands-off monitoring of children. If something starts to get out of hand, someone can step in, but otherwise let kids be and learn how to live and have fun! -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy Encyclopedia Ermariana - Trapped in the Closet ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 02:13
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Sounds like an endless parade of "yes men" are being produced by today's mollycoddling nanny state. The bullies have won. They are the nannies. Your whole life is being plotted out and planned, and your every action is being controlled. The bullies don't even have to beat up your children any more, they have you to do it for them. The fear you live in and carefully instill in your child will cripple them, take away their humanity, and make them worthless and weak. Spineless. They wont make nary a peep out of fear of rocking the boat. And in turn, they will raise children even more cowardly and craven than the previous generation. Control. Conformity. Submission. Salmon gets it. I think he understands the system and how it works. And no, I wasn't talking about high school age kids. Heck, I can remember some of the stuff that happened in grade school. Stew Boy, do not take this wrong, but you have been programmed well. You are a drone. You could have fought back when it mattered. You could have resisted. You could have done the right thing, and didn't. And you will spend the rest of your life living with what you didn't do and the consequences of your (lack) of actions. Keep telling your self what ever day time talk show psychobabble you like to hear and reconfirming the fact that you kept your little rowboat gloriously steady. Adversity is the key to human existence. It is the only way we gain true strength. To know suffering, to know pain, to struggle, that is the only path to wisdom. In this age, we are running out of Jesus figures... Malcolm X figures. Martin Luther King figures. Ghandi figures. As each generation becomes more and more pussified, we will see fewer and fewer of these types of men because the conditions that create them are being scrubbed away by the forces in control, and the forces in control DO NOT WANT these sorts of figures rising up and saying "no." They would rather have the endless parade of yes men that they are creating. We are losing our Hunter S Thompson types, our weirdos and crazies. Our anti establishment non conformists. I knew the world was going to hell when I started seeing 9 and 10 year old kids peddling around with training wheels still on their bikes, so encumbered with so many pads and body armor and oversized helmets that they could barely move or peddle. A lot of people are going to hate me for this post. A lot of folk are going to think things that they have no courage to say. I expect some whining... My last few posts got them. A few of you might get it though. I can only hope. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 03:08
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I've been waiting for a punchline for the last two pages, but it's clearly not forthcoming. quote:Standard countercultural claptrap. Every human who has ever lived has been indoctrinated with a set of beliefs and ways of dealing with the world, and that's not a bad thing. A blank slate is only useful because it can be written on. quote:Human existence pretty much sucks. The fact that people need strength and wisdom to get by in life is a bug, not a feature. I'm all for fixing human nature by whatever means are at our disposal. quote:Some might say the fact that fewer people oppose the establishment is evidence that the establishment is getting better. But no, that wouldn't fit in with your deep psychological need to feel oppressed. -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 03:56
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I grew up a minority. I didn't have white skin to give me a free ride through life. Take that statement however you will. Oppression takes submission and a slave mentality. I have neither. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 06:11
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quote:I'd say this is the right idea but the wrong metric. It shouldn't depend on what is happening, it should depend primarily on the kid's ability to handle it. It he is in an unpleasant situation and is struggling with it, give him a chance to deal with it on his own. If it looks like he won't be able to do so in a reasonable way after some tries, then assist. Otherwise, let him work it through, to learn. How quickly assistance is offered might depend on the situation. Also note that it's possible to offer support in an unpleasant situation that increases the kid's abiltiy to handle the situation well, but does not remove his autonomy in handling it or what he will learn from it. Medical treatment when you get hurt would go in this category, or encouragement and discussion (not suggestive advice) in almost any situation. In order to learn successfully and then to be successful, kids need autonomy AND support. Edit: In response to Alec, what surprises me is that almost nobody here is taking degree of damage into account. Tanbark is not there to prevent skinned knees, which can still happen in it, it's there to lessen the likelihood of serious head, neck, and back injuries, and to prevent anyone from making like Piggy in Lord of the Flies. And for most kids, skinned knees will only be traumatic if they don't get appropriate support from adults (and even then "traumatic" is a bit of a strong word). Same thing goes for wearing a helmet when you bike, calling "casting" when you fish in an area with other people, and so on. Preventing fatal accidents and trauma is good, period. Minimizing mere adversity is debatable and IMHO depends on situational factors. Doing it at the cost of fun and play is absurdly stupid. [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 06:34: Message edited by: Frosted Cryodrayks ] -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 06:52
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Of course fighting back against a bully prepares you well for real life, because when someone at the office says something unpleasant to you, you don't respond with a witty retort: you go over and punch him in the face. That's how people make friends and get ahead in life. Seriously, this idea that physical violence against "bullies" is in some way useful as a life lesson seems completely idiotic. When do you literally hit back later in life? I'm all for allowing kids to run around and climb on things and be kids — as long as they're not in any serious danger — but the idea that a third grader should just "fight back" when being bullied by a sixth grader who is a foot taller is just stupid. And this doesn't have anything to do with being a "free spirit" or "thinking ouside the box" or whatever the hell garbage it was just associated with. Not wanting to fight is a far more outside-the-box and valorous impulse than simply a meatheaded desire to get even. Most of these sorts of problems are incidental and kids can usually solve them themselves. However, if something more serious does come up — repeated physical abuse, typically by someone much larger and stronger, but even if not — a kid must not be afraid to go to an adult for help. As far as making playground equipment safer: some safety regulations go too far, but I'm not opposed to making small adjustments in order to reduce the possibility of very serious injury. I don't think much is lost by changing cement to rubber — really, what the hell is the difference to a six-year-old? — but I do think it's a major downer when someone is severely injured or killed at recess. Watching your friend die is not a healthy part of growing up, and if we can reduce the instances of that, within reason, I'm all for it. As was just said in the previous post, skinned knees are a normal part of childhood, but serious injury and death should not be. [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 06:54: Message edited by: Kelandon ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 07:27
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The kids that beat up the bullies don't wind up stuck in offices as drones. No, they usually OWN the office. Or have no use for it at all. That is the whole point. Most of them go on to live good lives... And do something meaningful. And you are correct. Violence doesn't solve much. I am, for the most part, a pacifist. I do not believe in unneeded violence. I wont do a lot to defend my self now. Others however, women, children, people that can not defend themselves, agressors beware. I have no moral objections to breaking a leg and then spending an hour lecturing the person why I had to break one of their bones, and why they can not go around doing what they do with out running in to consequences one day. I also do things like open doors for women, offer a lady my coat if she is cold, offer my seat when there is no where to sit, things like that. Things that people for some reason frown upon in this day and age. And on rainy days always carry an umbrella that I don't mind giving away in the event of a woman in need. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 07:43
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There's just one thing I want to say on the fighting back issue: This isn't the same world as the one most of you grew up in. Most of you grew up in a world were it was normal to settle disputes with fists. A few people get beaten up, but the only actual damage done was to your ego. Fighting back was just beating the crap out of someone, basically. However, as of the twenty-first century, things changed drastically. They no longer fight with just fists, but with knives, and on some occasions, guns. Fighting back now simply isn't a matter of how brave (or cowardly) you are, but if you are willing to risk your life for that one moment of revenge. So consider if you had a son or daughter who was being bullied. Imagine he/she retaliated, and got him or herself killed. Would you be proud that your kid fought back, even though he/she was dead? Would you be proud that, even though he/she could easily have had a full, happy life, he/she instead died in some foolish squabble that he/she could just as easily walked away from? Perhaps those that don't fight back aren't as cowardly as you think they are. Perhaps they're just smarter. -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |
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Raven v. Writing Desk
Member # 261
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 08:05
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DV, this is really a new side of you we're seeing. I would never have expected such a passionate outburst from you on this issue. -------------------- Slarty vs. Desk • Desk vs. Slarty • Timeline of Ermarian • G4 Strategy Central Posts: 3560 | Registered: Wednesday, November 7 2001 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 08:16
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Originally by Kelandon: quote:You can jump out of a swing if the ground below is wood chips or rubber pieces, but not if it's cement. Plus, you can bury people if the wood chips and rubber pieces are deep enough. :P --- I think that one way to balance safety and fun is giving kids enough responsibility and information to think and decide for themselves. The odds of a kid getting seriously injured is much less if they know enough to make decisions for themselves. At my school, dodgeball was banned because it was too dangerous and someone might get hurt. But we played it whenever we could anyway, just with rules that you couldn't aim for the head or neck, or throw the ball with every ounce of your strength. If someone couldn't follow those rules, everyone left and the game ended. If a kid broke the rules repeatedly, everyone quickly learned that they were an idiot and they wouldn't be allowed to play any more. Sometimes, there would be two games of dodgeball going, one for the kids who thought that pain equaled fun and one for the kids who thought otherwise. No one was ever seriously hurt and it was a lot of fun, but it was still banned, which was foolish. Dikiyoba. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 09:19
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quote:Does it make you think any less of me? Or do you like this side? -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 09:52
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quote:Sorry for a double posting, but this is an issue I must reply to on its own terms. Your example is flawed. Somebody popping off and saying something is one thing. You don't go and punch them in the nose in an office setting. That is not what this is about. You fire off a witty retort in return. However... You see somebody being mugged in a parking lot, you see a woman being harassed or otherwise manhandled by some goon, it is your responsibility to go over and DO THE RIGHT THING. Which nobody ever seems to do in this modern age. People are all to happy to sit by and do nothing when bad things happen. Violence is WORTHLESS with out proper moral character. You will notice one of the people I listed as great men was Ghandi... Grit. Let's talk about grit for a moment. I do not see a generation of mollycoddled nancies having enough grit to take a stance for their beliefs. Being tough and having moral character is not always about violence, some times it is about letting violence happen to you. How is some nancy little pantywaist going to hold up to any sort of beating, hardship, starvation, etc, with out some kind of toughening up? How do you know what you are capable of if you never suffer? What are your limits? When do you cry uncle or beg for mercy? How do you know the test of your mettle, your standard, how much you can endure before you cry out, whimper, or break down? Some times doing the right thing means suffering for others. It means shedding blood. It means being a real man and accepting your fate with out a lot of blubbering and whining and pissing and moaning. It means facing whatever with a quiet reserved sense of dignity and grim determination. I grow tired when people present the sort of argument presented here, that growing up that way means you are going to beat people up in the workplace or any other useless example presented in this manner. It is a straw man. I know the depth of what I am capable of, what I can do, and I know that when the crunch comes, I can serve others selflessly. If I see something bad happening, I will not flinch or hesitate to stick my self in to that situation and make sure I can satisfy my own conscience. I know I will be able to wake up the next day and look at my self in the mirror. I will never have to live with regret for sitting by uselessly and not doing a thing. I have endured and suffered incredible pain in service to others. I have suffered a great deal for my own personal convictions and beliefs. I have had to deal with those who would rather not have outspoken minorities who live with out any fear or submission. I have endured broken noses, broken bones, beatings, thrashings, stabbings, and all manner of horrible things, and never once did I give the people that did those things a moments satisfaction by crying out or breaking down or submitting to their will. I would much rather never have a moments violence. I would much rather not have a single shred of pain or discomfort. I would very much like it if people got along and everybody treated everybody with a measure of respect and dignity. But that will never happen. I am most greatful that my upbringing has allowed me to endure what I have gone through. I am thankful that all the lumps I took as a kid made me find out the measure of my self as a man so that I know that I can endure doing the right thing, which is seldom ever easy. I take pride in the fact that in a crisis, I can and will take charge and I WILL get results and that I have the power and authority to look after the needs of others and keep them safe. Or at least try to. I am thankful that even though I know fear, and might be scared witless, I know that I will survive and I can press on inspite of whatever terror I may feel, because serving others is more important than serving self. Coddling snot nosed little whelps does not make men and women that this world needs right now. Things are worse than ever. Moral character is in decline. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 09:54
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quote:I believe my paper-thin argument has been thoroughly pwned. Okay, so supervision is necessary. I get it now. But there's still a point at which it becomes ridiculous, and forbidding tag is one of them. On the subject of bullying... I think that teachers should be on alert to prevent it. If parents have to get involved, so be it (regardless of how much that sort of thing can embarass a kid). My two cents... quote:No, I think much more of you now, personally. I was actually quite relieved to see that there's more than a Vlish gimmick there. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 10:12
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quote:I would have to say that a vast majority of people find my point of view sickening to them. Personal responsibility, accountability, and strong straight forward moral convictions frightens them. I am a loud, angry, outspoken, dreadlocked kilt wearing freak. People are frightened of me. I don't fit in. A great number of people would rather have nothing to do with me. People wish that I, and what I represent would just go away. It scares me that one day, it might. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 10:17
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Kel, if a third grader is getting beaten up by a sixth grader, it's pretty obvious that it's time to call in the teachers/parents/other authorities. However, if a third grader is constantly punched, pinched, etc. by a weaker second grader, it's the third grader's fault. As for "fighting back", this has nothing to do with physical violence. If we are talking about playground bullies, the conflict is physical. But in other situation "fighting back" can take the form of being unafraid to report abuse or other problems, going out to lead a counter-protest, or simply trying to accomplish something until you succeed. Today's American schools are ideal for encouraging complacency and "not fighting back", particularly in the sence of "persisting until you achieve your goal". With grade inflation, multiple "tracks" that allow students to graduate without learning even seventh-grade material, and classes whose main requirement is to be fun for the students the system encourages everybody to be happy with whatever little they have, without striving for more. I guess I am in the middle between DV's independent strength and mindless submission that would result from some of the suggestions on this thread. Unfortunately I am a lot closer to submission edge of the spectrum, but I can at least understand the problem. PS I just read DV's last posts and ... wow. I have a lot of respect for you. Your posts make mine irrelevant, but I'll leave it in since I've already typed it. [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 10:20: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 10:20
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This topic reminds me of a little discussion I had with my cousin last night. Apparently, at his child's school you cannot bering cookies to school as it is an "unhealthy" snack and their child has been given reaming outs for disobeying this policy. In even stupider matters, she brought a second sandwich for a snack (because she couldn't have a cookie) and this was disallowed as it was "snack time" not :lunch time". quote:I believe as a pedestrian in jaywalking, crossing at unsupervised locations (the middle of the block), running without looking (cars have to stop because the insurance penalty for hitting me is too high) and using bicycle paths to walk my dog. I believe as an operator of motorized vehicles traffic laws were developed to warn slower moving transportation devices to be careful of motorized vehicles. Therefore, in the absence of the "black and whites" stop signs are merely merge with caution and lights simply require a proper lane check before proceeding. -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 10:29
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quote:The world needs quiet but strong voices of moderation as much as it needs loud obnoxious outspoken voices. In there somewhere is balance. Ghandi was submissive, but knew the depth of his character. Being submissive in it self does not make you weak. It is what you do with that submission. To turn other cheek takes a great deal of strength and it is not a weak act at all. It to has a place. I do not go out and beat others up for saying something to me. People razz me about my dreadlocks all the time, or the fact that I wear a "skirt" in public. I am ok and secure enough with my self that I can ignore that. And if somebody wants to take a poke at me, I can embarass them with out hurting them. I can hurt them far more by never laying a finger on them and letting them have it with words, or by simply letting them do whatever and then ask "Is that all you got? I expected so much more from a tough talker like yourself." What makes you a man or a woman is never running away and always facing the situation head on. The only true failure is never trying. -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5410
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 10:39
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Interesting to note that we have three pages of dialogueing about how to properly react to bullying and other adverse circumstances but little on the rightness/wrongness of those adverse circumstances. Bullying for instance. Why is there no discussion on how to properly treat bullies and bullying behaviour - there have been studies that indicate part of bullying is an inability (by the bully) to properly participate in play and bullies can therefore be taught how to interact on a proper level and forego the need to bully. Bullies are there and need to be reacted to but bullying behaviour should not be considered an acceptable and unavoidable part of life. Exposure to bullying is not by choice. Exposure to "dangerous" playground equipment is a choice made by children - but it may not be a properly or fully informed choice. The question becomes, what level of risk can children of that age be able to properly assess and appreciate. And also the balance of risk/reward. These activities which develop physical skills such as dexterity and balance are necessary but some activies may be too inherently dangerous to proceed. -------------------- "Dikiyoba ... is demon ... drives people mad and ... do all sorts of strange things." "You Spiderwebbians are mad, mad, mad as March hares." Posts: 687 | Registered: Wednesday, January 19 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 2836
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 11:39
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quote:I agree there. When you're being bullied, fighting back isn't going to help much unless you're really really good at it - the bully will just pick on a weaker person instead.[self-pity]Like me.[/self-pity] Posts: 587 | Registered: Tuesday, April 1 2003 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 12:09
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Stew Boy, boxing may not be the thing for you, but you can learn Judo. With that type of technique, it doesn't matter how physically strong your opponent is or how frail you are. And you won't have to fight all the time. Once they see that you are up to them, they'll withdraw. It will take you only a few months, maybe half a year, to be good enough to defend yourself. edit: Judo [ Thursday, November 02, 2006 12:14: Message edited by: ef ] -------------------- Polaris Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done Rache's A3 Site, original version Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 12:19
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Originally by Ephesos: quote:Dikiyoba thinks that the fact that the school had to ban tag shows a lack of supervision, rather than an excess of it. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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His Mighty Tentacle
Member # 627
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written Thursday, November 2 2006 13:40
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Been thinking. Strength of character means having the rats chew off your face rather than chewing off Julia's. One or two of you might get this. The rest of you need to spend more time reading. :P -------------------- If I could make just one wish, I would want a tasty vlish. Geneforge IV. Still no tasty vlish. Posts: 1104 | Registered: Tuesday, February 12 2002 08:00 |