Libertarianism - yay or nay?
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Friday, October 27 2006 09:51
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China and Russia are hardly what I would call deregulated free markets. China remains one of the most tightly regulated nations in the world. As for Russia, most of its recent prosperity (which is concentrated in the hands of a few) stems from an increase in the price of oil; nothing more. For a text-book case of the failure of deregulation, look to the California energy crisis of a few years ago. Markets aren't always the most efficient solution - see Coase Theorem, part 2, the Tragedy of the Commons, etc. It's all well and good to say that anyone can make it if they try, just as it's easy to assert that no one should have sex before marriage or be gay. Reality dictates otherwise. Finally, did you even read my post? The social safety nets in place are what in part keep prices down, and it's likely the case that if a nationwide healthcare program for all citizens were put into place, the overall cost to you or I would become even cheaper, because companies would no longer have to shoulder the substantive burden of providing expensive healthcare plans. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Friday, October 27 2006 10:07
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There is a lot that is pretty ridiculous here. Welfare has been around since Rome, if you were a citizen you got a guaranteed loaf of bread, a roof over your head, and public gladiatorial entertainment. This was called a safety net. It was used to make sure people didn't revolt and run riot in the streets. Other than being dead, you are going to have taxes in one form or another. I don't know if they tax people in heaven, but they might. I would like to see a flat tax, with luxury taxes to reduce excessive consumption. The ideal tax situation would be one which gave a person guaranteed annual income creating a permanent safety net which would eliminate welfare and all that other junk. As for the underclass, the underclass is being replaced by automation. Eventually you will have a bunch of starving idiots and a bunch of machines making more than we need. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Friday, October 27 2006 12:15
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To be considered civilized as a society or a nation, current terms dictate that the privileged should be compassionate and help the poor. Even if the reasons for aiding them are primarily economic or practically grounded, welfare programs make the country appear more urbane. Welfare in some form is just plain necessary to be fair to the disabled and the unemployed who honestly want to work but do not have the opportunity to. Also, I don't think anyone argued that welfare was a completely new phenomenon. It is a matter of degree and how financially entangled the government is with social welfare. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, October 27 2006 12:46
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It was the Gilded Age, *i. The Guilded Age would probably be the 15th to 18th centuries. —Alorael, who sees a fundamental problem with a lot of the arguments against Tully here. You are all assuming that he agrees that poverty and ignorance are bad in and of themselves. His attitude towards "weakness" makes that seem like a dubious prospect. Care to weigh in, Ulleg? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Friday, October 27 2006 13:31
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Doh! Was tired when I typed that. :P -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Friday, October 27 2006 14:19
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Originally by Alorael: quote:The problem with the strong being wealthy and the weak being poor in our current society is that strong becomes synonymous with lucky and weak becomes unlucky, rather than being based on characteristics like willpower or charisma. There are individual exceptions, of course, but it stands as a general rule. It could work in a society where all children were raised in a controlled and equal environment, though, to fail or succeed in their adult life entirely on their own merit (or lack of it). And their rite of passage from being children raised equally to adults living out strong/weak lives could be so dangerous and desperate that it makes for good reality TV. (No, Dikiyoba isn't seriously advocating that.) Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Friday, October 27 2006 18:45
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I was only mostly saying that eliminating all welfare programs is bad and unfair. I'm not completely sure whether he promotes social Darwinism; but more importantly I don't think we can say that all poor people deserve to be poor and that all rich people deserve to be rich. There is little room for compassion and charity in what appears to be Tully's view. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Friday, October 27 2006 19:07
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No, I'm really not so sure there is. —Alorael, who is simply cautioning against using arguments that hold no weight. It's mostly an intellectual exercise though, because Lleg won't change his mind, you won't change yours, and this thread is just people playing around the edge of the gigantic pit of flames. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Friday, October 27 2006 21:45
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quote:I'm all for declaring it time to throw in the virgin to appease the gods. What more fitting way to end the discussion... Edit - it used to mean something completely different... [ Friday, October 27, 2006 21:48: Message edited by: Spookee Salmon ] -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Friday, October 27 2006 22:04
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It's helpful though that Emperor shared his father's story, as it explains his mindset. I've noticed that same despise before in people I've come to know who'd risen above humble beginnings. There seems to be a need in some to enforce their newly created identity; their cleaning women and gardeners can tell you a tale. But you are not your father, and it could just be that you misunderstand the true nature of your father's potential, of his strength. It is not in making money, it's the ability (coupled of course with a natural talent) to focus dedicatedly, one-sidedly and totally on one purpose in life. It is a rare potential, and we are more used to recognize it in the spheres of the arts and sciences. Your father applied it in a very down-to-earth, practical way - creating abundance. But consider artists. Many are talented, few are chosen. Your father is a genius in his own way. That doesn't mean that everyone can do what he did. You can't want to be a genius. You are or you are not. If you want to eliminate all those who aren't, we'd certainly never have to worry about overpopulation or dwindling resources ever again. In fact, as their one-sidedness blinds them to whatever lies outside of their focus, they'd probably die out. [ Friday, October 27, 2006 22:24: Message edited by: ef ] -------------------- Polaris Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done Rache's A3 Site, original version Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Friday, October 27 2006 22:15
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quote:You make everything ... groovy. :D Even though it was a typo, I think you should leave it. In fact, I think we need to replace all instances of dwindling resources with your version. So much more appropriate. :cool: -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2476
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written Friday, October 27 2006 22:22
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Oh damn. No, it wasn't a typo. The german word is 'schwinden' and I was thinking in german and got the languages mixed up. :D [ Friday, October 27, 2006 22:23: Message edited by: ef ] -------------------- Polaris Rache's A3 Site reformatted 2/3 done Rache's A3 Site, original version Posts: 1828 | Registered: Saturday, January 11 2003 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, October 27 2006 23:32
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Gilded Age: A poor example of why libertarianism doesn't work. A major theme of this time period was the government scandals involving the contracting of large scale construction projects, such as railroads. High ranking officials in Grant’s administration were involved in such a scandal, and Cheney is probably engaging in such practices as we speak. I think this qualifies as government interference, and thus cannot be counted against capitalism. ef: Yes, I do believe that talent and ability should be the determiner for wealth. This may be idealistic but hey, so are all economic views. I believe people should all have equal opportunity, another reason I think education should be nationalized rather than privatized. Those that are good at what they do and devoted to doing it should be rewarded, and in capitalism they usually are. Those that are weak (in this case meaning weak as in short of ability, not poor) should fall to the bottom, thus becoming one and the same with the poor after all. I don't understand why you would want to give these people a helping hand when they will never be anything more than a burden on society anyway, no matter how much you give them. Artists: This is a useless profession, and a horrible waste of creative potential. Such great minds would be better of as inventors. They would make more money, and they would benefit society at the same time. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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...b10010b...
Member # 869
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written Friday, October 27 2006 23:40
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quote:Isn't there a certain inconsistency in posting this view on forums run by an artist whose products you consume? -------------------- The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure! Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Friday, October 27 2006 23:44
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Well, they're here, so I take advantage. If these games never existed, well, I wouldn't be able to miss them, would I? Probably would have been a more productive person in life as well. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Agent
Member # 1934
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written Saturday, October 28 2006 00:11
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Art is necessary to inspire people to invent things, Tullegolar. -------------------- You acquire an item: Radio Free Foil Posts: 1169 | Registered: Monday, September 23 2002 07:00 |
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The Establishment
Member # 6
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written Saturday, October 28 2006 04:51
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quote:True, but not the only thing going on, the time was far more complicated than that. Businesses didn't, on their own, seek to improve the plight of the worker really. Not saying that business is inherently corrupting, it's not. However, business without any government to constrain it will likely lead to the same result of class division. The reason is there is little short term economic incentive to help the have nots. -------------------- Your flower power is no match for my glower power! Posts: 3726 | Registered: Tuesday, September 18 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Saturday, October 28 2006 09:54
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Artists and inventors don't have or need the same skills. There's no easy way to turn the former into the latter. And guess what? Successful artists are those who produce a product that's in demand, like Jeff Vogel. Failed artists don't. How exactly is that not what you want? If Jeff makes a living from his games, he's obviously strong. —Alorael, who has now come back to the original problem. Most people here don't think that helping the poor is an unacceptable burden on society. If the rich are slightly less happy to give up some money and the poor are much happier when benefitting from that money the net happiness increases and society is improved. Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2820
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written Saturday, October 28 2006 10:07
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If Tully is committed so deeply to his doctrine as to continue believing in it even if he is brought into financial ruin through no fault of his own, then let him so believe. I hold contempt only for those who can and don't try. -------------------- Thuryl: I mean, most of us don't go around consuming our own bodily fluids, no matter how delicious they are. ==== Alorael: War and violence would end if we all had each other's babies! ==== Drakefyre: Those are hideous mangos. Posts: 1415 | Registered: Thursday, March 27 2003 08:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Saturday, October 28 2006 13:22
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quote:FYT, if you don't mind. Just wanted to make a point. -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
Member # 4045
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written Saturday, October 28 2006 13:26
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Dear lord. What is the point of making money if there's nothing to do with it? Accumulating wealth in a society that has no art or entertainment is entirely pointless: you can roll in your riches, but you can't watch a movie, listen to music, or even read a book. Money is not good for its own sake. Money is good for the sake of allowing people to do fun things. Besides, even if you disagree with the aforementioned, it is indisputable that workers work better when given occasional luxuries, including access to the arts, and some amount of time off. Society is more productive with art than without. -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Smoo: Get ready to face the walls! Ephesos: In conclusion, yarr. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Saturday, October 28 2006 13:33
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quote:Dear God!!! Was that what I was doing wrong in SimCity? :( :eek: -------------------- quote: Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Councilor
Member # 6600
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written Saturday, October 28 2006 14:18
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quote:Besides, Dikiyoba has always seen artists as inventors. They're create new things that we've never seen before, after all, and if they don't, we pan them for it. Posts: 4346 | Registered: Friday, December 23 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7420
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written Saturday, October 28 2006 14:32
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quote:This is probably the most insightful thing I've heard from anyone here in a long time. This statement not only gets my Emperor's Seal of Approval™, but I am obligated to admit... I have erred. Artists do indeed have their place in society. You win on that one. Don't get too excited though, for that was a small point in a much larger argument. My other, more important points still stand. -------------------- You lose. Posts: 2156 | Registered: Thursday, August 24 2006 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 7472
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written Saturday, October 28 2006 15:18
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quote:...long time?!? You've only been here a month! -------------------- I tried to think of something witty to put here. Needless to say, I failed. Posts: 2686 | Registered: Friday, September 8 2006 07:00 |