Civil Unions disallowed in ACT

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AuthorTopic: Civil Unions disallowed in ACT
By Committee
Member # 4233
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As have the UUs, and actually several Baptist churches even, though this largely depends on the particular church.

I think it will take a sea-change in public opinion (which is slowly happening) as well as probably some controversial Supreme Court ruling, before gay marriages are legally recognized, or at least the prevention of them is ruled unconsititutional.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Law Bringer
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What makes one species fit isn't what makes another species fit. Bonobos are fiercely omnigamous. Some animals, particularly a few bird species, are fiercely monogamous. Humans are somewhere in the middle but closer to the birds.

—Alorael, who is unaware of any research done into polygamy genes. Surely it would be reasonable for a gene or several genes to control desire to have a single partner or many partners?
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Freakin' Salmon:

Ash - The reason I asked "why?" was because you felt there was a need to discuss this bit of Australian political agenda. The concept of marriage has become highly charged as of late, with various governments deliberately using that term instead of civil union. I saw no net gain in entering the discussion, and the trollage was imminent. It looks like a lot of folks had fun though, even though non-Australians have a very hard time absorbing enough Australian politics to understand the ramifications of the decision.

You were asking because it was Australian politics, right? I would hate to think that you were putting forward another religiously motivated debate thread. Those get old, fast.

Well, it was a bit closer to home than just being Australian politics. The ACT = Canberra. This law would have applied specifically and exclusively to the city I live in. I was hoping to discuss the specific case more than gay marriage in general, but hey.

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SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
The Establishment
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It's hard to have a local discussion without discussing the entire issue especially on something this big.

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Oh, inevitably. It's all tied up together. But still, the actual practical situation does merit some attention.

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SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
? Man, ? Amazing
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quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

Oh, inevitably. It's all tied up together. But still, the actual practical situation does merit some attention.
Fair enough, and I understand the "close to home" bit as well. So I pose the question. How does this decision affect you personally? I mean, my neighbor could have a habit of eating dog crap, but as long as he isn't in my yard following my dog, I've got no problem with what he is doing. But that is me. Someone else may want the guy to stop doing what he loves.

Is this an issue (in Canberra) solely about the distinction between marriage and civil union? Also, please give some background. It is incredibly difficult to parse positions within and without government. Candidates (and seated politicians) change positions regularly, and it would be pertinent to be informed as to how long the various parties have held the positions.

:)

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


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quote:
Originally written by Right Angle Bracket:

—Alorael, who is unaware of any research done into polygamy genes. Surely it would be reasonable for a gene or several genes to control desire to have a single partner or many partners?
The Y chromosome?
Posts: 293 | Registered: Saturday, May 29 2004 07:00
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quote:
Originally written by Freakin' Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

Oh, inevitably. It's all tied up together. But still, the actual practical situation does merit some attention.
Fair enough, and I understand the "close to home" bit as well. So I pose the question. How does this decision affect you personally? I mean, my neighbor could have a habit of eating dog crap, but as long as he isn't in my yard following my dog, I've got no problem with what he is doing. But that is me. Someone else may want the guy to stop doing what he loves.

If you don't pay attention to your neighbour now, it will be too late when he sneaks upon your dog's crap suddenly one day, so you won't be able to clear it yourself. So you will be accused of, firstly, for not clearing after your dog, and secondly, for intoxicating your neighbour if something happens to him. Did I answer your question? :P :)

Edit: some detalisation

[ Thursday, June 22, 2006 21:01: Message edited by: Hurling Frootmig ]

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9 masks sing in a choir:
Gnome Dwarf Slith
Giant Troll Troglo
Human Nephil Vahnatai
"If the mask under mask to SE of mask to the left of mask and to the right of me is the mask below the mask to the right of mask to the right of mask below me is the same, then who am I?"

radix: +2 nicothodes: +1 salmon:+1
Posts: 203 | Registered: Tuesday, March 14 2006 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Hurling Frootmig:

If you don't pay attention to your neighbour now, it will be too late when he sneaks upon your dog's crap suddenly one day, so you won't be able to clear it yourself. So you will be accused of, firstly, for not clearing after your dog, and secondly, for intoxicating your neighbour if something happens to him. Did I answer your question? :P :)

Edit: some detalisation

I was remiss in providing landscape details. I've an acre that is fully fenced, with "woods" surrounding that. My dog prefers to use the woods, so there is no policing of poop or picking up schtick. My neighbor (hypothetical) is more than welcome to wander the woods, so long as he remembers that the stuff in RotS about high places and rifles isn't fiction. Random gunfire through the course of the day serves as a reminder, don't you think?

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
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Hmmm. Since we were talking on civil acts topic, and you were the first person to bring up the parallel with your neighbour, I continued answering analogically to your example. It wasn't literally that I meant your neighbour and your dog's crap. However if you also answered in your last post with analogy, speaking in fact about civil acts and stuff, then I fail to understand what "fenced", "woods" and your "dog prefering woods" mean in the key of civil acts :D

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9 masks sing in a choir:
Gnome Dwarf Slith
Giant Troll Troglo
Human Nephil Vahnatai
"If the mask under mask to SE of mask to the left of mask and to the right of me is the mask below the mask to the right of mask to the right of mask below me is the same, then who am I?"

radix: +2 nicothodes: +1 salmon:+1
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In

case it was not evident, I was replying to Ash, and hoping to receive more information about the topic. As he likely suspects, my comparison is loaded.

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quote:
Originally written by Kelandon:

Well, I'm at least pretty sure that Salmon is losing.


Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
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quote:
Originally written by Hurling Frootmig:

quote:
Originally written by Freakin' Salmon:

Fair enough, and I understand the "close to home" bit as well. So I pose the question. How does this decision affect you personally? I mean, my neighbor could have a habit of eating dog crap, but as long as he isn't in my yard following my dog, I've got no problem with what he is doing. But that is me. Someone else may want the guy to stop doing what he loves.
If you don't pay attention to your neighbour now, it will be too late when he sneaks upon your dog's crap suddenly one day, so you won't be able to clear it yourself. So you will be accused of, firstly, for not clearing after your dog, and secondly, for intoxicating your neighbour if something happens to him. Did I answer your question? :P :)

Edit: some detalisation

... so, if I may make a stab at deciphering the analogy, you're saying that gay marriage is bad because it will encourage gay people to sexually assault you and those close to you?

Okay, your name's going in my loon file now.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
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all your dogs are belong to us
--australia

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quote:
Originally written by Freakin' Salmon:

quote:
Originally written by Ash Lael:

Oh, inevitably. It's all tied up together. But still, the actual practical situation does merit some attention.
Fair enough, and I understand the "close to home" bit as well. So I pose the question. How does this decision affect you personally? I mean, my neighbor could have a habit of eating dog crap, but as long as he isn't in my yard following my dog, I've got no problem with what he is doing. But that is me. Someone else may want the guy to stop doing what he loves.

Is this an issue (in Canberra) solely about the distinction between marriage and civil union? Also, please give some background. It is incredibly difficult to parse positions within and without government. Candidates (and seated politicians) change positions regularly, and it would be pertinent to be informed as to how long the various parties have held the positions.

:)

1) It doesn't really affect me, except as far as a mismatch between my values and the values of the society I live in goes.

2) Some background: Federally, the Liberal/National Party coalition (centre-right) is currently in government. However, in the ACT, the Labour party is in power. Labour is always further to the left than the coalition, but the ACT Labour party are very much so.

A while back, the Federal Government passed the Marriage Act, defining marriage as being between a man and a woman. I'm not sure exactly what the technical reason was for the law being struck down, but it could have been for legislating on marriage (which states and territories aren't allowed to do) or for being in conflict with Federal law. Either case requires the law to have legalised same-sex marriage, which the Federal government says it did.

The question of whether it did or not is one of the two that's been choking up talk radio. The ACT government have been angrily pointing to the part of the act where it says "A Civil Union is not the same as a marriage", while the federal government have pointed to the fact that the only actual difference is the name, comparing it to something that looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck but has a sign around its neck saying "This is not a duck".

The other issue that's been debated is if the Federal Government is infringing on the territory's right to self-govern. I find this one a little amusing, since the ACT government is really just a glorified city council, but still. This one is interesting, because it's the reason for Senator Gary Humphries crossing the floor and voting against the Federal government - he's actually personally opposed to civil unions. And the reason why he's staunchly defended the ACT's right to self-govern? Well, it may have something to do with the fact that he used to be the ACT Chief Minister. Where it gets really interesting, though, is that for a while leading up to the vote, he wouldn't say whether he was going to cross the floor or merely abstain. Inside rumours I've heard suggest that he was waiting to see whether his vote would change the result - that is, he wanted to publically condemn the government's actions, but also didn't actually want to stop. Basically, putting on a show for the voters. Gotta love politics.

But I think the most important detail is the alternative bill that the ACT opposition put forward was for a relationship register that (if I have got my facts straight) would function more or less as we seem to have all agreed would be the best way - that is, applying the legal benefits of marriage to anyone living in a domestic partnership, regardless of the nature of that relationship. The ACT government is now considering whether to pursue this arrangement in place of the defunct Civil Unions act.

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SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
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*UPDATE*

Senator Gary Humphries (the guy who broke ranks to vote against the Government) is coming here for an interview on Wednesday.

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SupaNik: Aran, you're not big enough to threaten Ash. Dammit, even JV had to think twice.
Posts: 1861 | Registered: Friday, February 11 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Hurling Frootmig:

If you don't pay attention to your neighbour now, it will be too late when he sneaks upon your dog's crap suddenly one day, so you won't be able to clear it yourself. So you will be accused of, firstly, for not clearing after your dog, and secondly, for intoxicating your neighbour if something happens to him. Did I answer your question? :P :)

Edit: some detalisation

... so, if I may make a stab at deciphering the analogy, you're saying that gay marriage is bad because it will encourage gay people to sexually assault you and those close to you?

Yoy definitely missed the analogy. It is slightly deeper then you "deciphered", if you really did try. :)

quote:
Okay, your name's going in my loon file now.
That's not fair, still it's up to you. :P

Edit: That will be almost the same as if I think about your first post here that you expect from people who is getting married nothing except the desire to feel superior towards those, who is still single. Superficially one can see only this point :) However, I guess it is not right.

[ Sunday, June 25, 2006 21:21: Message edited by: Hurling Frootmig ]

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9 masks sing in a choir:
Gnome Dwarf Slith
Giant Troll Troglo
Human Nephil Vahnatai
"If the mask under mask to SE of mask to the left of mask and to the right of me is the mask below the mask to the right of mask to the right of mask below me is the same, then who am I?"

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Posts: 203 | Registered: Tuesday, March 14 2006 08:00
...b10010b...
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quote:
Originally written by Hurling Frootmig:

Yoy definitely missed the analogy. It is slightly deeper then you "deciphered", if you really did try. :)
Well, if I were to make a more serious guess, it'd be that you were making an oblique reference to AIDS.

You're still a loon, though.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
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La Canaliste
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*squints*
So seabirds get AIDS from eating dog poop?
Or only from eating it promiscuously?
*ears ring from worryingy tangled analogies*
*eyes water also*

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I am a mater of time and how .

Deep down, you know you should have voted for Alcritas!
Posts: 387 | Registered: Tuesday, March 1 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

You're still a loon, though.
Tsssss, that was a secret, you know. :P
That is if you mean an "insane person" saying "a loon". Otherwise my babylon fails to interpret that.
P.S. Did I miss a friendly graemlin in your post?

All I wanted to say, that when you don't pay attention to something, which you are sure is Not Your Problem, you will be among those, who shall be blamed for irresponsibility, if something goes wrong with the political situation in your area, due to some same-sex marriages. I can judge that by people's reaction, when they start to seek for a scapegoat. Noone shall even listen that once that was Not Your Problem. So showing a mere interest in surrounding events is worth sometimes, IMO.

[ Monday, June 26, 2006 02:09: Message edited by: Hurling Frootmig ]

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9 masks sing in a choir:
Gnome Dwarf Slith
Giant Troll Troglo
Human Nephil Vahnatai
"If the mask under mask to SE of mask to the left of mask and to the right of me is the mask below the mask to the right of mask to the right of mask below me is the same, then who am I?"

radix: +2 nicothodes: +1 salmon:+1
Posts: 203 | Registered: Tuesday, March 14 2006 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Hurling Frootmig:

troll
+
troll
------ c=?
clott

8

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??? ??????
???? ?????
Posts: 883 | Registered: Wednesday, October 19 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
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quote:
Originally written by Hurling Frootmig:

All I wanted to say, that when you don't pay attention to something, which you are sure is Not Your Problem, you will be among those, who shall be blamed for irresponsibility, if something goes wrong with the political situation in your area, due to some same-sex marriages. I can judge that by people's reaction, when they start to seek for a scapegoat. Noone shall even listen that once that was Not Your Problem. So showing a mere interest in surrounding events is worth sometimes, IMO.
Oh, now I get it. You're opposed to same-sex marriage because it'll encourage persecution of gays.

You're even more of a loon than I thought.

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The Empire Always Loses: This Time For Sure!
Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Shock Trooper
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quote:
Originally written by Thuryl:

quote:
Originally written by Hurling Frootmig:

All I wanted to say, that when you don't pay attention to something, which you are sure is Not Your Problem, you will be among those, who shall be blamed for irresponsibility, if something goes wrong with the political situation in your area, due to some same-sex marriages. I can judge that by people's reaction, when they start to seek for a scapegoat. Noone shall even listen that once that was Not Your Problem. So showing a mere interest in surrounding events is worth sometimes, IMO.
Oh, now I get it. You're opposed to same-sex marriage because it'll encourage persecution of gays.

There are only two ways of a choice: you are so-o-o *cough*cough*sarcastically-cynic*cough* that I with all my cynizm can't get it, or you are a gay. I'm not a tiny bit of being opposed to same-sex marriage and never was, so I won't stand in your way, no doubt :P
P.S. The third choice is that you are wrapped into Not Our Problem field, however. Though, judging on your first post here, it, unfortunately, may be true.

Edit: Or, you never came across the situation with a scapegoat.

quote:
You're even more of a loon than I thought.
Flattery won't help you :D
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The voices assure me there's the fourth case, involving mr.U making fun of mr.M, though I hope for better interpretation of mr.U behaviour.

[ Monday, June 26, 2006 04:22: Message edited by: Meeshka ]

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9 masks sing in a choir:
Gnome Dwarf Slith
Giant Troll Troglo
Human Nephil Vahnatai
"If the mask under mask to SE of mask to the left of mask and to the right of me is the mask below the mask to the right of mask to the right of mask below me is the same, then who am I?"

radix: +2 nicothodes: +1 salmon:+1
Posts: 203 | Registered: Tuesday, March 14 2006 08:00
By Committee
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What "problem" could legalized gay marriage possibly cause for you? In what way could it possibly be "too late" once gay marriage is legalized?

Frankly, I agree with Thuryl.
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La Canaliste
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I am beginning to be in love with Meeshka for taking on Thuryl with good and amusing humour, and refusing to be insulted.
If only all arguments here were as gentle!

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I am a mater of time and how .

Deep down, you know you should have voted for Alcritas!
Posts: 387 | Registered: Tuesday, March 1 2005 08:00
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quote:
Originally written by Drew:

What "problem" could legalized gay marriage possibly cause for you? In what way could it possibly be "too late" once gay marriage is legalized?
Guys, do you usually read to get the meaning of the whole sentence? Where on earth did you see in my posts that it's me, who shall have a problem? :D Still, that doesn't mean that it won't ;) . Who knows what political situation we shall have in a year? in ten years? As for the latter part of your question, I didn't think that I'll have to explain the old as world idioms about the crowd blaming the neighbours first, especially when those have no idea of what is going on :D . If so, then you should study it from history of any country. The main idea of my post that I prefer always to be informed on what's going on not only in my small world, but everywhere else, and may be even take part. And so do you, since you are reading this thread. ;) Saying this I don't mean I want to deal with not my business or disturb someone's privat life. It's only politics that are worth keeping eye on, nothing more. No literally neighbours, no dogs with their craps, no birds and AIDS. :P
So that should be the answer to the question "How does this decision affect you personally?" in context of the global discussion. Not only in Canberra.
So I can understand Salmon's post, since he just wanted some detalisation from Ash. But Thuryl made it a bit too far trying to, heh, "decipher" my answer and failing in it twice.

quote:
Frankly, I agree with Thuryl.
That's good. At least you found a like minded person in this question.
P.S. WTH is "loon" at last? :P

[ Monday, June 26, 2006 06:36: Message edited by: Meeshka ]

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9 masks sing in a choir:
Gnome Dwarf Slith
Giant Troll Troglo
Human Nephil Vahnatai
"If the mask under mask to SE of mask to the left of mask and to the right of me is the mask below the mask to the right of mask to the right of mask below me is the same, then who am I?"

radix: +2 nicothodes: +1 salmon:+1
Posts: 203 | Registered: Tuesday, March 14 2006 08:00

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