Ethical Survey
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Triad Mage
Member # 7
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written Monday, October 10 2005 16:47
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Respond and discuss. 1) What is your gender? 2) How religious would you say that you are: Not at all, somewhat, or very? 3) Are you vegetarian or vegan? 4) A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are 5 people who have been tied to the track. Fortunately, you can flip a switch that will lead the trolley down a different track. Unfortunately, there is a single person tied to that track. Should you flip the switch? 5) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by dropping a heavy weight in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you - your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed? 6) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people, all children under 10. You can divert its path by flipping a switch, but if you do, the trolley will continue down an alternate track towards five senior citizens. Do you flip the switch? -------------------- "At times discretion should be thrown aside, and with the foolish we should play the fool." - Menander ==== Drakefyre's Demesne - Happy Happy Joy Joy desperance.net - We're Everywhere ==== You can take my Mac when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the mouse! Posts: 9436 | Registered: Wednesday, September 19 2001 07:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 2238
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written Monday, October 10 2005 16:54
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1) Male 2) Not at all 3) Neither 4) In all honesty, I would do nothing. But if someone is watching/expecting me to make a decision, I would flip it. 5) Toss em. 6) Flip it. Who needs old people? [ Monday, October 10, 2005 17:12: Message edited by: demonslaeyr ] -------------------- The critics agree! Demonslayer is "a five star hit!" raves TIMES Weekly! "I've never heard such thoughtful comments. This man is a genious!" says two-time Nobel Prize winning physicist Erwin Rasputin! Posts: 1582 | Registered: Wednesday, November 13 2002 08:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6347
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written Monday, October 10 2005 16:57
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quote:1) Male 2) Define "religious" please 3) No, but I'll probably become a vegetarian to some degree some day 4) Depends... who/what are the 6 people? 5) Same answer as above. More info on the individuals is needed. 6) Probably. More info is given. But how "senior" and who are they? Of course, my three last questions are within the context of my being omniscient (or semi-omniscient, at least) and knowing certain facts about these people's lives that I wouldn't simply know by just looking at them. Assuming I'm not omniscient in any way, and I'm just randomly walking down the street and see this happen, knowing absolutely nothing about these people, then... 4a) Yes 5a) Yes (I think... this one I'm less sure of. Pushing someone off a bridge, for some reason, seems more cold-blooded than simply flipping a switch, despite the fact that the end result is the same as question 4. I'd -like- to, but I'm not sure I'd be -able- to as easily) 6a) Yes ... Discussion will come later. -------------------- "Take time to listen to what is said without words, to obey the law too subtle to be written, to worship the unnameable and to embrace the unformed." -- Lao Tzu Posts: 124 | Registered: Monday, September 26 2005 07:00 |
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Shake Before Using
Member # 75
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written Monday, October 10 2005 17:39
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1) Male 2) Not at all, really. 3) Nope. 4) Yes. 5) No. There's a chance he'd be a Judo master and flip me over the railing instead, killing me. :P 6) Yes. Posts: 3234 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00 |
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Too Sexy for my Title
Member # 5654
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written Monday, October 10 2005 17:49
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1) Female 2) Somewhat 3) Nope 4) No 5) No 6) Yes Posts: 1035 | Registered: Friday, April 1 2005 08:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 6292
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written Monday, October 10 2005 17:59
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1) Gender is a construct, whereas sex is biology. I score pretty highly on both "masculine" and "feminine" traits psychologically--what Sandra Bem called "androgeny" in the 70's. I identify as male, but with the realization that I don't REALLY know what that means apart from societal roles which are largely arbitrary. 2) Not any more. Religion is institutional and limited in what can be, constructed around ritual and tradition and designed to reconcile man with God. I see religion as law but spirituality as passion and exploration and freedom. 3) Tried it once...it didn't work well. I am of all Northern European ancestry and the biology of my ancestry is accumstomed to a certain amount of animal meat for optimal functioning. On principal, I'd like to be. I do eat a lot of vegetables! 4) Yes. I heard this as a story embedded in a sermon in church as as child. It was a story about sacrifice. A trainswitch operator saw his infant child crawling on the gears which moved the track. A train was coming, and the track needed to be moved or the passengers would crash and die. The man crushed his own infant in the gears to save the whole train. 5) Probably I should, but wouldn't. I might somehow hope that at the last moment something unforseen might prevent anyone from dying. 6) Yes. In all three scenarios I can imagine being so mortified that I'd maybe just freeze and do nothing. [ Monday, October 10, 2005 18:15: Message edited by: Synergy67 ] -------------------- [Insert Signature Here] Posts: 2009 | Registered: Monday, September 12 2005 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
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written Monday, October 10 2005 18:11
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1. Male. 2. Somewhat. 3. Let me answer that with a quote (of myself): "My favorite vegetable is bacon." 4. Depends. If I have enough time to ask that single person whether or not he'd be willing to sacrifice his life or not, I would go with his decision. If not, I'd throw the switch. I would throw the switch irregardless if the one person was George Bush. 5. Same as before. 6. Ditto. [ Monday, October 10, 2005 18:15: Message edited by: Eldibs ] -------------------- "We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box." "Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15 The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive. Currently boycotting: AngelFire, GameFAQ's Everybody should go to this site at least once. Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00 |
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? Man, ? Amazing
Member # 5755
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written Monday, October 10 2005 18:13
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I see Drakey is too good for polls. 1 - Male 2 - Spiritual, but not religious 3 - Next monday I receive 350# of beef. Yum. Who uses a trolley? I'll assume this is some citified mass transit thingy, and no offense, but I think too many people live in cities. So, I'll apply my situational ethics and... 4 - Half flip the switch, derailing the trolley and saving all six of the stupid people that managed to get tied to the tracks. 5 - Push the fat guy off the bridge so he lands next to the tracks, thus alerting the trolley drive to insanity ahead, possibly saving the life of lazy people lying on the tracks while definitely killing the fat guy. 6 - Hmmm. I'd let the kids get run over. Not many people are stupid enough to let themselves get tied to train tracks, and if that is capacity of these children, the sooner the better. Whereas the old guys managed to survive a good long time before succumbing to the lure of the iron horse. Ideally, anyone that gets fooled into being tied to tracks should get run over, but I only get to pick one group. *this message sponsored by your local fire and rescue outfit* Posts: 4114 | Registered: Monday, April 25 2005 07:00 |
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Skip to My Lou
Member # 40
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written Monday, October 10 2005 18:55
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1. Male 2. Very 3. Nope, but I tend to eat very little meat. I just don't really like it. 4. I'm leaning toward yes, but I really can't know for certain what I'd do until something like that happened. 5. I'm leaning toward no. In this case I would be responsible for him being on the tracks. Again, though, I'm not certain. 6. Yes. Chances are very high that the old people would prefer it. -------------------- Take the Personality Test! INTJ 100% 75% 100% 44% Huzzah for the Masterminds! www.Keirsey.com for personality information. The Sloganizer! "Swing your Archmage Alex." Deep down, you wish you were a stick figure. Posts: 1629 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 4614
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written Monday, October 10 2005 19:09
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1. Male 2. Somewhat 3. Neither 4. Eh, flip the switch, I guess. 1 person dying is better than 5. 5. I doubt that I would think of that fast enough. :P But assuming I could physically hoist him up and I had time to think about it, probably. 6. Seniors can go. The children haven't lived their life yet. -------------------- -ben4808 For those who love to spam: CSM Forums RIFQ Posts: 3360 | Registered: Friday, June 25 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, October 10 2005 19:22
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1. Male 2. Barely. If it were possible to be less Jewish and still fairly called Jewish, I would be. 3. I'm a fair weather vegetarian. I don't like meat all that much, but I have no objection to eating it when there's no other choice (or when other chioces are less tasty). 4. I'd flip the switch. 5. In theory, I'd give the man a push. In practice, I doubt I could. 6. I'd flip the switch. —Alorael, who is more interested in knowing who would tie people to a track to save the passengers of the trolley. How many people would you be willing to tie down if, say, 100 people are on the trolley and will inevitably die if X people are not tied on the track. How high can X be before you wouldn't do it? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
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written Monday, October 10 2005 19:35
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1) What is your gender? Male 2) How religious would you say that you are: Not at all, somewhat, or very? very little 3) Are you vegetarian or vegan? no 4) A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are 5 people who have been tied to the track. Fortunately, you can flip a switch that will lead the trolley down a different track. Unfortunately, there is a single person tied to that track. Should you flip the switch? Depends on who the one person is and who the five people are. If all are complete strangers, then yes. 5) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by dropping a heavy weight in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you - your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed? No. (It still somewhat depends on the identity of the 5 people and the 1 person, but if I wanted to save the 5 badly enough, I'd be more likely to jump down myself, since the weight doesn't really matter: all you need is a body to derail the tram.) 6) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people, all children under 10. You can divert its path by flipping a switch, but if you do, the trolley will continue down an alternate track towards five senior citizens. Do you flip the switch? Yes, unless old people are my relatives, or somebody else I know. (If both children and old people are my relatives, I still flip the switch.) [ Monday, October 10, 2005 21:46: Message edited by: Zeviz ] -------------------- Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword, For it too has the power to kill. However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword, Can also have the power to heal. Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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Master
Member # 1046
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written Monday, October 10 2005 19:44
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1) Male 2) No 3) Neither 4) It depends who these people are. 5) If I had the strength, I would. After all, none of the people I know are morbidly obese men. 6) The old farts will die soon anyway, so yes. -------------------- Polaris - Weather balloons, ninjas, and your big daddy Wise Man. What more could you want? Undead Theories - Don't Ask, Don't Tell Posts: 3323 | Registered: Thursday, April 25 2002 07:00 |
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Mongolian Barbeque
Member # 1528
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written Monday, October 10 2005 19:59
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1. Male. Not much to discuss here. 2. "Very," in a "somewhat" sort of way. I'm "very" in terms of my beliefs, but "somewhat" or "very little" in terms of participating in group ritual or sharing my beliefs with others. I'm not much in line with any recognized modern religion, all of which have been severely corrupted somewhere along the line. My most deeply held beliefs are far off the beaten path, and if I explained them they would be considered either "bizarre" or "very unusual" at best. 3. I'm not sure. As soon as I stop eating Skittles, I'll see what ends up in my mouth and let you know. 4. Yes. I'd rather see just one person torn in two rather than five. I'm squeamish. 5. No. I doubt any human being could be that fat. And if they were of Dale the Whale proportions, they're very unlikely to be out and about walking over bridges. Conclusion: this fat person is, for whatever strange reasons, wearing several sofa cushions under his trenchcoat. Perhaps he's a key player in some dark and perverted ethical psychology test. 6. No. I love old people and hate children. [ Monday, October 10, 2005 20:30: Message edited by: Icshi ] -------------------- The A.E. van Vogt Information Site My Tribute to the Greatest Writer of the Science Fiction Golden Age Posts: 907 | Registered: Monday, July 15 2002 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 4153
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written Monday, October 10 2005 20:54
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Hm... I see Drakefyre has acknowledged the inefficiency of the belief polls. Direct response is much clearer, after all. 1) Male. Simple one there. Far from the typical stereotype, though (in my mind, anyway). 2) Not at all. However, as long as nobody tries to convert me (or anyone else, for that matter), I'm fine with religion. I try my level best to respect others' beliefs... after all, closed-mindedness is a hard habit to break, not to mention a very unrewarding one. 3) Trying to be vegetarian, failing miserably. I love buffalo wings way too much. Really, if chicken was a vegetable, I'd be a full vegetarian in an instant. 4) I'll wedge the switch halfway and crash the trolley when it reaches the screwed-up junction, before it hits anyone. 4a) Honestly, I'd flip the switch and go with just killing one person, though it would haunt me for the rest of my life. 4b) Seriously, I'd be so busy agonizing over the problem that it would happen before I could do anything. 5) I'd probably collapse on the ground in a fit of moral confusion and anguish. 5a) Seriously, I'd probably just stare at the accident, too afraid to move. 5b) Or I might jump off myself, and try to land so as to deflect the trolley (I'm not heavy enough to stop it). 6) Too difficult... brain overloading. 6a) Honestly, I'd probably flip it to the senior citizens, on the assumption that they had already lived a nice long life. 6b) See 5b) 7) I seem to remember these trolley problems from a previous thread... -------------------- Gamble with Gaea, and she eats your dice. I hate undead. I really, really, really, really hate undead. With a passion. Posts: 4130 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Guardian
Member # 3521
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written Monday, October 10 2005 22:06
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1. Male, and I've got the mutton chops and 'stache to prove it. 2. Somewhat. There was a time when I would have answered "very" to such a question, but things have changed. My belief is just as strong as ever, but I just don't quite care as much anymore. About anything, really. 3. Vegetarian. I have been my entire life. 4. No. I don't believe in attributing quantitative value to human life, as the value of human life ought to be viewed as infinite. Killing five is no worse than killing one, as in both cases the same line has been crossed. 5. No, for much the same reason as the above. 6. Here I would say yes. But I'm not differentiating here based on the quantity of the lives, but rather quality of life. The children enjoy a greater quality of life, in all likelihood, so it makes sense to spare them over the elderly. -------------------- Stughalf "Delusion arises from anger. The mind is bewildered by delusion. Reasoning is destroyed when the mind is bewildered. One falls down when reasoning is destroyed."- The Bhagavad Gita. Posts: 1798 | Registered: Sunday, October 5 2003 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 5450
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written Monday, October 10 2005 22:13
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1) Male 2) No. 3) Neither. 4) Although it is highly unlikely that a thing like that will happen, I would flip the switch. 5) Shove him. He wouldn't feel it. 6) Get rid of the senior citizens. They have had their run. -------------------- Mugglenet--The ULTIMATE Harry Potter Site. Polaris-- New location. Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 5806
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written Monday, October 10 2005 22:17
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1) What is your gender? *Checks his pants*, Male. 2) How religious would you say that you are: Not at all, somewhat, or very? Philosophic, I like religion since it is historical and easy to debate about. 3) Are you vegetarian or vegan? With the right seasoning, I could eat a shoe. Yeah, I eat everything. 4) A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are 5 people who have been tied to the track. Fortunately, you can flip a switch that will lead the trolley down a different track. Unfortunately, there is a single person tied to that track. Should you flip the switch? My deduction says that I will not have to take stand for such a situation in reality. Doing nothing would be more easy to excuse in case of failure than taking action. I suppose that my relationship to these people are non-existant, right? 5) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by dropping a heavy weight in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you - your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed? I am too weak in my arms to push such a fleshpiece. And I would never be so insane to deliberately do something so controversial 6) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people, all children under 10. You can divert its path by flipping a switch, but if you do, the trolley will continue down an alternate track towards five senior citizens. Do you flip the switch? Oui. Absit individia, old people, but the future generation of humans are not you. -------------------- So, as the great Groxy, I have come back to be served by goblins. In the "main hall" of the goblin cave was a large totem which resembled very much of... me. Posts: 437 | Registered: Friday, May 13 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, October 10 2005 22:53
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quote:1) Male. 2) Agnostic. 3) Neither, although generally for humane treatment of animals. 4) Depends on which of the six people I know personally, and if any of them is a politician. If neither, yes. 5) This is getting twisted. No. Edit: Unless the fat man happens to be president of a decadent superpower. 6) This is nearly as twisted. Same answer as 4, but otherwise yes. [ Tuesday, October 11, 2005 03:19: Message edited by: Atrus ] -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "Really, Spiderweb is just a big, steaming pool of estrogen." --- Robin Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4248
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written Monday, October 10 2005 23:06
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quote:1) I've done a test on this, and I score negatively in both feminity and masculinity. I appear as male, though. 2) I hate organisations. Religions are organisations. Thus I hate religions. That doesn't prevent me of being spiritual, though. 3) Neither. Wolves eat other animals, what prevents me of doing it? 4 & 5)Killing five people at once is more cost-effective than killing just one. 6) So you give me a choice between five people and five people... I choose five people. -------------------- Somebody PLEASE turn the heat on. Posts: 617 | Registered: Tuesday, April 13 2004 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 6388
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written Tuesday, October 11 2005 02:00
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1) What is your gender? I am male. 2) How religious would you say that you are: Not at all, somewhat, or very? Tricky. Not at all in the theistic sense - I think people basically have complete control over their lives and destinies, and all the responsibilities thereof - but very in terms of how much impact the idea has on my life. 3) Are you vegetarian or vegan? I eat meat. 4) A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are 5 people who have been tied to the track. Fortunately, you can flip a switch that will lead the trolley down a different track. Unfortunately, there is a single person tied to that track. Should you flip the switch? If this represents perfect knowledge of the situation, yes. 5) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by dropping a heavy weight in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you - your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed? If I know for certain that the death of the fat man will preserve the lives of the other five, and I am not fat enough myself to stop the train, yes. 6) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people, all children under 10. You can divert its path by flipping a switch, but if you do, the trolley will continue down an alternate track towards five senior citizens. Do you flip the switch? If they were simply adults, I would say no: both basically have the same chance of living another generation and making the same connections and such, and as such, action would be morally ambiguous at best. As stands, yes; it would be unusual to allow five deaths in order to preserve five lives for a relatively minimal period of time, and the friends and relatives of the elderly should be relatively reconciled to the idea of their passing - that being an integral part of life, after all, and their being close in biological terms to it naturally. This is the more difficult of the three questions, because there's no direct ethical calculus. --- For those of you who answered 'yes' to #4 and 'no' to #5: Both of these questions ask you to, by direct action, sacrifice a single human life in order to save five. They are not fundamentally different: if you act, one person will die; if you do not act, five will die. How do you explain differing answers to what amounts to the same moral question? [ Tuesday, October 11, 2005 02:05: Message edited by: Belisarius ] Posts: 794 | Registered: Tuesday, October 11 2005 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 6347
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written Tuesday, October 11 2005 02:24
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quote:99? ;) ... For what it's worth, I vaguely recall something along the lines of questions 4, 5 and 6 in a class on philosophy I once took. At least #6. I don't quite remember what was discussed, but the basic premise inherent with the question(s)—which made sense at the time—was that it was extremelly morally ambiguous at the time, and there was no simple answer. It may have been only #6, and the class may have been metaphysics. I'm not sure. I'm seem to remember something along the lines of how with the senior citizens, they had lived their life, but by that fact, they had more to bring/share to the world than the children (having experienced more, and all that) whereas in the case of the children, they hadn't lived their lives yet... so on one hand, that was a good enough reason in itself to spare them, whereas on the other hand, that was a very fact used to give a reason to choose them over the senior citizen; not having truly lived yet, all humanity would be losing is raw potential... and who was to say that one (or even, god forbid, all five!) of the children would be the next hitler? Or conversely, who was to say that those same 5 children might not die the next day from something else anyways? These arguments aren't right. I know. I can't remember exactly what I had been told... something along these lines. But it was very poignant at the time, and very hard indeed to make a decision. -------------------- "Take time to listen to what is said without words, to obey the law too subtle to be written, to worship the unnameable and to embrace the unformed." -- Lao Tzu Posts: 124 | Registered: Monday, September 26 2005 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Tuesday, October 11 2005 03:27
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There is nothing saying that one (or all five) of the elderly weren't the next Hitler. :P --- Belisarius, there is a reason why firing squads consist of 5-10 executioners, and several of them fire only blanks. No, being able to turn a lever that will result in death does not equate to being able to push someone off a bridge. [ Tuesday, October 11, 2005 03:28: Message edited by: Atrus ] -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "Really, Spiderweb is just a big, steaming pool of estrogen." --- Robin Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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By Committee
Member # 4233
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written Tuesday, October 11 2005 03:55
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1) What is your gender? Male 2) How religious would you say that you are: Not at all, somewhat, or very? Not at all. 3) Are you vegetarian or vegan? Neither. I loves me the bacon! 4) A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are 5 people who have been tied to the track. Fortunately, you can flip a switch that will lead the trolley down a different track. Unfortunately, there is a single person tied to that track. Should you flip the switch? Yes. 5) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by dropping a heavy weight in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you - your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed? No. 6) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people, all children under 10. You can divert its path by flipping a switch, but if you do, the trolley will continue down an alternate track towards five senior citizens. Do you flip the switch? Yes. Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Shaper
Member # 32
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written Tuesday, October 11 2005 04:08
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1) Male 2) Not at all. 3) Neither I don't think any of the remaining three can be truthfully answered until you are put into that situation. It's nice to say what you think you would do, but that isn't always going to be how it turns out. -------------------- Lt. Sullust Cogito Ergo Sum Polaris Posts: 2462 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00 |
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