Ethical Survey

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AuthorTopic: Ethical Survey
Warrior
Member # 6347
Profile #25
quote:
Originally written by Atrus:

There is nothing saying that one (or all five) of the elderly weren't the next Hitler.
Good point, but let's just say the chances are dramatically reduced. ;)

As I said, I don't quite remember the exact debate, but it was something along those lines; point being (much like Stugri-La said) that giving a quantifiable value to an individual life is extremely hard, if not impossible.

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"Take time to listen to what is said without words, to obey the law too subtle to be written, to worship the unnameable and to embrace the unformed." -- Lao Tzu
Posts: 124 | Registered: Monday, September 26 2005 07:00
Shaper
Member # 3442
Profile Homepage #26
1) Male.

2) Not at all.

3) Neither.

4) It depends on the people/person involved. Stuck with five strangers and a friend, I'd kill the five strangers. Otherwise, damage limitisation.

5) It depends on the man. Should he be smiling, drinking coffee, or a friend of mine I don't think I would. I'd perhaps be more inclined to throw myself off, thus saving the five people.

6) Yes. Not because I'm ageist, but because it's much easier to rationalise killing 5 old people who have had a life.

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"I am a living sign..."

Thus endeth this post.
Posts: 2864 | Registered: Monday, September 8 2003 07:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #27
1) male
2) not at all
3) neither
4) Oh gosh... I don't think I would have the guts to even touch the switch. I coulf flip it and save five people, put I would murder one. The other way around is just the same, though I would kill five people and save one. I really wouldn't know what to do.
5) the same answer as 4
6) the same answer as 4

I just wanted to say reply to an earleir post, it was also quoted on the first post of this page. Yes, it may be the next Hitler, but also the next famous rock-singer or the man who restores world peace. You just don't know.

[ Tuesday, October 11, 2005 06:49: Message edited by: Thralni, emperor of Riverrod ]

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Thralni's almighty Avernum pages: My webpage, containing scenario's and graphics made by me (And maybe someday the homepage of the almighty chicken gods).

Click here for more information on Olga's fortune teller kiosk

Olga's fortune teller kiosk has been temporarily closed down, but you can contact the prophet with a PM - Was signed by the prophet of the almighty chicken gods, gods of everything that is a chicken.

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Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #28
Numbers four and six are about limiting the loss of life. Number five, however, would make you a killer, even if it was to save lives.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Post Navel Trauma ^_^
Member # 67
Profile Homepage #29
1. Male
2. Not at all
3. Meat tastes too good.

4. In theory, yes. In practice, I'd probably be too indecisive to do it in time.
5. No, if the fat man wants to die to save the others he can do it himself.
6. I don't know.

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Barcoorah: I even did it to a big dorset ram.

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Posts: 1798 | Registered: Thursday, October 4 2001 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 335
Profile Homepage #30
Numbers 4 and 5 are morally equivalent. One just involves less mechanical isolation. I imagine more people would be willing to push the man than beat him unconscious with a rock before heaving his body over the edge for much the same reasons.

—Alorael, who is sad that nobody answered his 7.
Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00
Nuke and Pave
Member # 24
Profile Homepage #31
The difference between 4 and 5 is that 4 is passive, while 5 is active. To highlight it even more, here is another variation on 5: Instead of 1 fat man, there is a large number of people walking along the bridge and you can push any of them that you want. I am guessing even fewer people would push a person in this case, because they'd have even more active choice.

As somebody said before "in #4, the man is already on the rails, in #5, you are the one who placed him there."

[ Tuesday, October 11, 2005 10:03: Message edited by: Zeviz ]

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Be careful with a word, as you would with a sword,
For it too has the power to kill.
However well placed word, unlike a well placed sword,
Can also have the power to heal.
Posts: 2649 | Registered: Wednesday, October 3 2001 07:00
Mongolian Barbeque
Member # 1528
Profile #32
quote:
Originally written by Thralni, emperor of Riverrod:

it may be the next famous rock-singer
All the more reason to let him die.

quote:
or the man who restores world peace
Well, in order for world peace to be restored, it would have had to existed in the first place.

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Posts: 907 | Registered: Monday, July 15 2002 07:00
Shock Trooper
Member # 6068
Profile #33
quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

Respond and discuss.

1) What is your gender?

2) How religious would you say that you are: Not at all, somewhat, or very?

3) Are you vegetarian or vegan?

4) A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are 5 people who have been tied to the track. Fortunately, you can flip a switch that will lead the trolley down a different track. Unfortunately, there is a single person tied to that track. Should you flip the switch?

5) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by dropping a heavy weight in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you - your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed?

6) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people, all children under 10. You can divert its path by flipping a switch, but if you do, the trolley will continue down an alternate track towards five senior citizens. Do you flip the switch?

1. Male
2. Extremely religious
3. Not a vegetarian, although I don't eat meat on Fridays and days during lent
4. Yes.
5. Yes. In answers to four and five, I know, as a Catholic and a med student, that the most important thing is to preserve life. If this means the sad decision of choosing one over many, so be it.
6. Yes. We have a responsibility to first protect our children.

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"Sometimes I get all hungry!
And then I catch some flies!
They fly into my webs!
They are really yummy guys!"
-Spider
Posts: 209 | Registered: Monday, July 4 2005 07:00
...b10010b...
Member # 869
Profile Homepage #34
quote:
Originally written by Zeviz:

The difference between 4 and 5 is that 4 is passive, while 5 is active. To highlight it even more, here is another variation on 5: Instead of 1 fat man, there is a large number of people walking along the bridge and you can push any of them that you want. I am guessing even fewer people would push a person in this case, because they'd have even more active choice.

As somebody said before "in #4, the man is already on the rails, in #5, you are the one who placed him there."

How is #4 passive? You're pulling a switch. The only difference is that in #4 you're bringing the rails to the man while in #5 you're bringing the man to the rails. You may as well argue that shooting someone is a passive act because all you do is pull a trigger.

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Posts: 9973 | Registered: Saturday, March 30 2002 08:00
Lifecrafter
Member # 1468
Profile Homepage #35
In #4, the person is already in a perilous situation (We were in the nick of time! You were in great peril!(sorry, I had to.)), while in #5, you are putting the person in a perilous situation.
#4 isn't exactly passive, but it's more passive than #5.

[ Tuesday, October 11, 2005 13:01: Message edited by: Eldibs ]

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"We can learn a lot from crayons. Some are short, some are dull, some are sharp, some are tall. Some have funny names and they are all different colors, but they all learn to live in the same box."

"Happy is the man that has wisdom and gets discernment. For having wisdom as gain is better than having silver as gain and having wisdom as produce is better than gold itself" Proverbs 3:14-3:15

The horrible part about life is, you'll never get out of it alive.

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Everybody should go to this site at least once.
Posts: 818 | Registered: Tuesday, July 9 2002 07:00
Law Bringer
Member # 2984
Profile Homepage #36
quote:
Originally written by [b:
The Poster in Yellow[/b]]

Am I imagining the Lovecraft reference?

Edit: Oh, Lovecraft just ripped that off from Robert Chambers.

[ Tuesday, October 11, 2005 20:41: Message edited by: Atrus ]

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"Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft.
"I single Aran out due to his nasty temperament, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik
Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00
Mongolian Barbeque
Member # 1528
Profile #37
I wonder if Alorael's next moniker is going to be "A Study in Scarlet" — if he continues with the "Article Noun preposition Color" literary-reference theme, anyway.

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The A.E. van Vogt Information Site
My Tribute to the Greatest Writer of the Science Fiction Golden Age
Posts: 907 | Registered: Monday, July 15 2002 07:00
Shaper
Member # 247
Profile Homepage #38
quote:
Originally written by Drakefyre:

Respond and discuss.

1) What is your gender?

2) How religious would you say that you are: Not at all, somewhat, or very?

3) Are you vegetarian or vegan?

4) A trolley is running out of control down a track. In its path are 5 people who have been tied to the track. Fortunately, you can flip a switch that will lead the trolley down a different track. Unfortunately, there is a single person tied to that track. Should you flip the switch?

5) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people. You are on a bridge under which it will pass, and you can stop it by dropping a heavy weight in front of it. As it happens, there is a very fat man next to you - your only way to stop the trolley is to push him over the bridge and onto the track, killing him to save five. Should you proceed?

6) As before, a trolley is hurtling down a track towards five people, all children under 10. You can divert its path by flipping a switch, but if you do, the trolley will continue down an alternate track towards five senior citizens. Do you flip the switch?

1. male

2. somewhat

3. No.

4. No why should a person, not in danger, die because five others have been put in danger.

5. Yes any man big enough to stop a train would be superhuman.

6. No as I've said others should not die at the expense of those already doomed.

condition: All correct if I don't have relationships with any of the above people.

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I stop rubber at 160km/h, five times a week.
CANUCKS
RESPEK!
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The Knight Between Posts.
Posts: 2395 | Registered: Friday, November 2 2001 08:00
Shaper
Member # 5450
Profile Homepage #39
Its a trolley, not a train.

Just say for example your friend is on the track, tied next to your worst enemy (George Dubya, Hitler, whoever). Would you kill your friend to kill your enemy?

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I'll put a Spring in your step.

Polaris
Posts: 2396 | Registered: Saturday, January 29 2005 08:00
By Committee
Member # 4233
Profile #40
No. I wouldn't kill anyone.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Master
Member # 5977
Profile Homepage #41
quote:
Originally written by Icshi:

quote:
Originally written by Thralni, emperor of Riverrod:

it may be the next famous rock-singer
All the more reason to let him die.

quote:
or the man who restores world peace
Well, in order for world peace to be restored, it would have had to existed in the first place.

Once, all was good. Now music (also no classic music :( ) was on Earth, and peace was the ruler. Then came humanity, and started butchering animals, setting fire to the trees, large, green, full of woodily fluids (if you can say that). The point of this small story: Humans generally manage to destroy everything. You're right about peace. Was there once always peace (I mean, when humans already existed)? I don't think so... Maybe when the tribes that back then existed didn't met each other yet, but as soon as they met each other it became "war." And about the rock singer example: if you don't like rock music (like me), this may indeed be your answer, Icshi, although some people do like rock.

You know what, I'll change the example in order to match me better:

It may be the next Wagner or Rachmaninov.

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Thralni's almighty Avernum pages: My webpage, containing scenario's and graphics made by me (And maybe someday the homepage of the almighty chicken gods).

Click here for more information on Olga's fortune teller kiosk

Olga's fortune teller kiosk has been temporarily closed down, but you can contact the prophet with a PM - Was signed by the prophet of the almighty chicken gods, gods of everything that is a chicken.

Work has begun on the Nephilian grammar and vocabulary guide!
Posts: 3029 | Registered: Saturday, June 18 2005 07:00
Agent
Member # 2759
Profile Homepage #42
1) Male
2) Somewhat
3) Neither
4) No
5) No
6) No

Regarding items 4), 5) and 6), I cannot justify actively causing the death of anyone, however old or young or fat. Who am I to make the decision that person X should die while persons A, B, C, D and E should live?

Of course, this is an abstract argument. I fervently hope I shall never actually be put in this position. If I could actually see five people tied to a track, how could I stand there and take no action to help them? Particularly in the unpleasant case that one or more of the five was personally known to me.

This sort of moral dithering, by the way, is the reason why I answer "somewhat" to item 2). I find that organised religion is too full of absolutes. On the other hand I instinctively reject the purely worldly view.

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Everything I know about the Avernum Trilogy: [ A1 | A2 | A3 ]
Posts: 1104 | Registered: Monday, March 10 2003 08:00

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