The trouble with democracy is every idiot gets a vote.
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BoE Posse
Member # 112
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written Monday, July 19 2004 02:32
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Except in New Mexico. -------------------- Rate my scenarios! Areni Revenge To Live in Fear Deadly Goblins Ugantan Nightmare Isle of Boredom Posts: 1423 | Registered: Sunday, October 7 2001 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, July 19 2004 03:30
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How do they determine whether someone is an idiot? If they do it with IQ tests, they need serious help... :rolleyes: -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperment, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Fire! Fire! Fire! Fire!
Member # 919
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written Monday, July 19 2004 06:31
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quote:There are plenty of laws like that, old laws that are not enforced. There is a legal range on the IQ test that makes one an idiot, but can they really have everyone take an IQ test before registering to vote? I doubt that it's enforced. Good ol' New Mexico, solving the fundamental problems with democracy. =] -------------------- And though the musicians would die, the music would live on in the imaginations of all who heard it. -The Last Pendragon Polaris = joy. In case of emergency, break glass. Posts: 3351 | Registered: Saturday, April 6 2002 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4592
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written Monday, July 19 2004 09:35
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Sigh. If only it were that easy. Then my country wouldn't have had to put with things like this for six years. He is not taken care, Castro would be a pup in comparison to this guy. Just give him time. You'll see. http://www.vcrisis.com/ (if you are interested) If simple tests could solve problems. Sigh. [ Monday, July 19, 2004 09:36: Message edited by: Blind Samurai Penguin Clown ] -------------------- quote:Random Jack Vance Quote Manual Generator Apparatus (Cugel's Saga) Posts: 604 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 335
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written Monday, July 19 2004 13:12
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Under a now defunct classification system for levels of retardation, "idiot" meant someone mentally below the level of a three-year-old. Those labeled idiots were generally unable to speak coherently or function independently in any meaningful way. —Alorael, who isn't sure that's such a flagrant violation of the democratic system. If someone is not capable of the basic cognitive functions required for voting, should they be barred from voting on much the same grounds that children are? Posts: 14579 | Registered: Saturday, December 1 2001 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 4154
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written Monday, July 19 2004 13:17
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Hopefully it would be so. But then, those who are impaired in such a way would not end up going to vote, don't you think? -------------------- You're a moron if you think I'm not. Posts: 213 | Registered: Friday, March 26 2004 08:00 |
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Agent
Member # 2210
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written Monday, July 19 2004 15:21
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Its not so bad in a communist country only the bureaucrats get to vote, in the a theocracy only the priests get to vote, and in a dictatorship your vote is already decided. I would rather have idiots vote. -------------------- Wasting your time and mine looking for a good laugh. Star Bright, Star Light, Oh I Wish I May, I Wish Might, Wish For One Star Tonight. Posts: 1084 | Registered: Thursday, November 7 2002 08:00 |
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Shock Trooper
Member # 3719
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written Monday, July 19 2004 16:54
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I like it when everyone votes, and how can they be an idiot for voting, it's just picking a name :) -------------------- Scandalous Stories, fishing,and great photos Posts: 294 | Registered: Monday, November 24 2003 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4592
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written Monday, July 19 2004 18:36
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The problem isn't as much the clinical definition of idiocy. The problem is the lack of political (for lack of a better word) education when it comes to voting. The problem is also the ever so huge and abnormal amount of comformism that exists in so many democratic societies. I'm biased. I've seen, regretably so, how in Venezuela people voted TWICE for the same hybrid mutant of insects wasted product. TWICE! And in the second time, with the entity already two years in power, there was an absentism of close to 40%, the highest in the mediocre 40 years of democracy of this country. Now. After untold violations of human rights too long and cumbersome to go into detail here, we've had to put up with 6 years of this collapse of rationality. Our economy is worse than ever. Children abound on the street. The usual, perhaps. Besides the fact that, as an oil country, we've had those same years "enjoyed" an ever perennial record breaking oil price of, average, 30$. Now it is close to 40$. Our internal reserves are at 25 billion dollars. And this taking into account that in 2003, February, they were at about 10 billion after a two months, nearly-total, strike. And there is so much more. So bloody much. Oh, and now, as usual too late, there is a """hope""" of doing a presidential referendum to revoke him. Hah. He even controls the Electorial National Center! And, here are the galls of this reduction to the absurd, he is going to postulate himself as a candidate, a month later, if (BIG IF) he is revocated. I mean. AGH!!!!!!!! But I realize this is a rant that is very local. Sorry about that. Or in the US, for instance, where a guy won by what some call cheating, but nevertheless in an extremely close race with how much absentism??? Yeah. I'd rather everybody voted. It's our bloody right, and one of the few we can usually exercise. But, by all the gods everywhere, could people just take a little more intestest in who they are going to vote?!? And for the same gods' sake: VOTE!!!!!! [ Monday, July 19, 2004 18:39: Message edited by: Blind Samurai Penguin Clown ] -------------------- quote:Random Jack Vance Quote Manual Generator Apparatus (Cugel's Saga) Posts: 604 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Monday, July 19 2004 19:37
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quote:If you're calling most of the countries you sort of people like to call communist communist, explain how any beaureaucrats voted in the Soviet Union or the DPRK. :P BSC: I understand a dislike for Chavez, but the site you linked to has a number of ominous links -- namely, the sort that suggest they'd be in favor of a corporatist-minority coup attempt such as 2001's (2000's? 2002's? I forget when it happened). There's also something faintly galling about attacking a president for putting money into 'populist social programs' -- in other words, you're faulting the leader of a democratic country for active populism? Claims that election figures are unreliable in 'authoritarian regimes' are a HUGE red flag, because frankly I trust very few people when talking about 'authoritarian regimes' -- I've heard countries such as Germany called 'authoritarian' and countries such as Japan called 'model democracies'! -- and because in the absence of serious, provable corruption, decrying election results as inaccurate is only acceptable if the margin of error is very small. Furthermore, they complain about absenteeism of 35% -- a lower figure than average, unless I'm horribly mistaken, and an inevitable result of the democratic process. You have an open if skeptical audience here: what has Chavez done? How is he 'authoritarian', and how is he a serious threat to Venezuela? I can understand a difference in ideology, but apparently baseless accusations of corruption, autocracy, and theft I tend to view with a large level of suspicion, even coming from people I agree with politically. [ Monday, July 19, 2004 19:47: Message edited by: Ultimate Weapon Custer ] -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4592
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written Monday, July 19 2004 20:39
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Hi! Alec, as for the coup. It happened on April 11th 2002. Here's a brief story of how it happened (it was convoluted, complicated, a whole terrible mess that one, to this day, can even possibly describe in good objective terms.) I'll try to describe what I witnessed, and will try to keep my assumptions to a minimun. A brief background. PDV (petroleos de Venezuela) is our oil company. You see, as opposed to other countries what you find in your land is not yours. It is the state's. As such, oil belongs to the state. Once upon a time there were a myriad of oil companies (Shell, Exxon, Mobil, etc.) who worked this oil privately with a little help from the state. However, after a struggle that I know too little to even try to describe, many of these oil companies were kicked out. PDVSA (Sociedad Anonima) was formed. Nowaydas you may find some foreign oil companies such as ExxonMobil, Sincor, and others, however they all work with the permission of the state, and, as far as I know, they don;t really extract oil. They have gas stations, but the oil itself (the raw material if you will) belongs to the state. All good and well. Even though a part of the government, PDV was separate, in that its money could not be used to, say, financed a president's campaign. In April 7th (Sunday) Chavez, on his Sunday program (every Sunday (I think it was cancelled once, maybe twice) Chavez speaks for a few hours in the State channel. This is called "Alo! Presidente" During that program he fired several executives , all of them high ranking, from PDV. The way he did it was with classic Chavez histrionism: Using a whistle he would say that each of them had stroke out, "yeeeer out!" like in Baseball, a sport he profeses to love. This didn't sit well with people in what is nominally called "The Opposition" (a rather misnomer of, basically, anybody who opposes. Politically it includes a rather mismatch group of different political parties, from MAS which is leftist, to Accion Democratica, which lends towards the right and used to be one of the major parties of the country (though not a bi party system in paper, Venezuela proved to be in theory, of the number of Presidents we had in the 40 years of democracy, 3 were from COPEI (another right-oriented party) and the rest from AD. Whether any of them did good or not is arguable. I don't any did, but that's just me.) Anyway, the climate by that April 7th 2002 was heated. People were beginning to protest publicly the government of Chavez. There had been a march or two. We've had a national strike of a day, but not a major one. PDV is a bit of a double edged sword in this country. On the one hand it is (well, let's say was, now it's basically a Chavista company, but more on this later) our major form of income. On the other, in my mind and some others' at least, one of the many mistakes of our country since, I believe, it should be private/governmental and not completely and altogether governmental. So, when those executives were fired, specially in such a humiliating way, only to be substituted by people who were handpicked by Chavez. That's fact that is documented. Monday the reply came. We went marching. (Aside note: like a true patriot I've been in about 90% of the marches that we've had in the last few years. Carrying my flag and singing songs. I've been subjected to tear gas, more on this later. Thankfully, that is the extend of it. Just a bit of nausea.) The National Guard, as usual, went to the streets. It is understandable that in a democratic country the NG is there to ensure the safety of its citizens. I want to know why they bombard peaceful protesters with tear gas, which, I may add, the canisters had, many of them, an expiration date of 1993 and a very clear warning that if used later than that the effects could be worsen. Their presence there, in the march, SHOULD be to ensure we do not engage in violent behavior. Not to provoke and injure us, willy-nilly. On Monday another thing came into effect. A national strike of sorts. Not quite as big as the one to come, but bigger than the one from December 2001 (the one mentioned earlier which lasted a day. Oh: What was that one for? One of Cahvez's Ideas: Ley de Tierras (Law of Land) Basically he said that a number of meters from the sea to the shore belonged to the State and any private residences, buildings, resorts, etc, which fell on that area belonged to the Government. When you take into account we are a largely Coastal land, you get the picture. But it went futher, he also stated that an area of land from a Farm also belonged to the state (where he professed to place people to live in, since, according to him, landowners where rich selfish bastards who took land away from the poor) This Law, thankfully, went nowhere) Back to April 2002. Monday we marched, and Tuesday and Wednesday, and Thursday. Thursday 11th 2002 something funny happened. This on the next post. This is very long. -------------------- quote:Random Jack Vance Quote Manual Generator Apparatus (Cugel's Saga) Posts: 604 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00 |
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Law Bringer
Member # 2984
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written Monday, July 19 2004 21:21
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quote:In the US, many people have a vote, but the ones who decide are the oil companies. :P quote:They might have relatives who would take them by the hand and lead them to the ballot... "look, dearie, here's where you make the cross..." :D -------------------- The Encyclopaedia Ermariana <-- Now a Wiki! "Polaris leers down from the black vault, winking hideously like an insane watching eye which strives to convey some strange message, yet recalls nothing save that it once had a message to convey." --- HP Lovecraft. "I single Aran out due to his nasty temperment, and his superior intellect." --- SupaNik Posts: 8752 | Registered: Wednesday, May 14 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4592
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written Monday, July 19 2004 21:45
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AGGGH! I've just quit Netscape with an unfortunate pressing of keys. Write this again. Agh. (sorry about the double posting.) On Thursday April 11th there was a huge march 500 thousand plus, maybe close to a million, of people who went to Miraflores, our White House, to demand Chavez's resignation. Like a good little patriot boy, I've gone to most of these. We don't do much in them. Carry flags. Walk. Sing. However the NG is always there. Many times making sure we don't behave badly they throw tear gas at us. I've been subjected to some of it. Sucks. The cannisters, most of them, expired way back in 1993. And the warning on them clearly states that using them after the expiration date is dangerous. Anyway, on that particular march there wasn't anything like that. In fact it was all going great. . . . . . then I heard gunshots, or what seemed like that. I was kind of far from where it happened, but also kind of close. Good echo in that street. What happened I later learned when I arrived home. Chavistas on the Laguno bridge (so called because that's the name of the street it's on) were shooting at the marchers! Some snipers on buildings were doing the same. The marchers, all of us, were marching across a big street, one of the widest in the city. They were shooting using the facade of a building as a cover. Result: 100+ wounded, 90% or so marchers were wounded. 21 dead. I forgot the number, but I belive 20 were marchers, if not all. It has been known since as the Massacre at Laguno Bridge. It gets better. Chavez had forbidden TV helicopters to fly and film the marches. But some TV station had placed cameras at different buildings. Between those and, later on, videos made by civilians in the apartments of the surrounding buildings, we could ALL see what had happened. The best part is this: The TV stations transmitted the killings as they were taking place! Chavez, in his preternatural sagacity, decided at that moment to do a Chain. In it he expressed how everything was ok. How the march was going ok. How nothing was happening. Nothing to see here folks, move along. But, you see, an enterprising genius from one of the stations split the screen. On one side you could see the president talking, on the other you could see, as it happened, the shootings. Oh, and yeah. Some marchers carried guns and shot back. Not many though, most of them ran away for cover as soon as things got nasty. Now, I should point out there are two versions of this incident on tape. One is the one that was filmed, live, while it happened. The other can be seen in the movie "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" which is the chavista version of the events of those few days. I side with the former. But, I am indeed biased. Anyway. That night, the Heads of the military branches appeared on TV. The demanded that Chavez resigned. Chavez did not appear. Some conjectures ran amok. Where was he? Was the Chain pre-taped and placed at that time as a kind of signal for the shooters to being doing their thing? What was going on? Later on Lucas Rincon, at the time the Minister of Defense (he was for a while the head of the Supreme Court, he is going to have a new post, and now, the head of the Electorial National Center will be the head of the Supreme Court. Yeah. I know) read a communique. In it he read that Chavez had resigned. Hmmm. Later on we found out Chavez had been arrested. That night Carmona Estanga, the head of FEDECAMARAS (which is the federation under which all private business are united.) was named Interim President. Now, the guy was a business man. No more no less. His political knowledge was non-existent. The only reason, apparently, why he was chosen is that he was identified with the Opposition more than anyone else. You see the opposition, polititcally speaking, is formed of: CD (Coordinadora Democratica, the poptpurri of the old parties, the CTV Centro de Trabajadores de Venesuela (which the association which unites all the syndicates) and FEDECAMARAS. So a little bit of everything. Too many hands for that cake.) Since Carmona was the most visible member of it, he was named I.P. First mistake. That very night, intoxicated with political naivete and triumph he announces the country was going to get back its original name. Republica de Venezuela. (Now we are called Republica Bolivariana de Venezuela) All about Chavez's Bolivarian Revolution harkens back, one way or another, to Bolivar. Big surprise there. Why?! Oh seven bloody hells. It just got worse. You see, on Friday the 12th, the main principals who would have formed the I.G were named. All. I mean ALL where White Men. I mean by that either industrialists or fairly influential people on that area. Where were the representants of the people? Where was the head, or at least a high ranking memeber from the CTV? No syndicates on the committee? BIG MISTAKE. Where was the former Chavista? Tabula rasa? Of a bunch of people who had been in government for a few years?! Just like that?! Calamitous mistake. Bunch of things happened. Saturday comes and the same head of the military branches who had appeared on Thursday night appeared again. Chavez was coming back. Not too many explanations. What they had taken away, they had returned. Note: Remember that Chavez was one of the people involved in the military coup of 1992. That one failed. He ran away and hid. He is, was, has always been and always will be a coward. Biased as this may sound, I will say it nonetheless. Chavez, since being elected president in 1998 has made sure to treat the Military rather well. Even though, there has been, for a few years now, restlessness in the barracks. So to speak. You see, he began okay. As this things go. But as his regime progressed, his shennanigans became more and more annoying. The fact that he insisted on wearing military dress everywhere he went irked quite a few of the military people. Finally he was forced to stop doing so. The fact that he has been doing all the stuff he has done, has also vexed quite a few. But, among other things, he has made sure to give them even more benefits than the ones military personnel already had in this country. You see, here in Venezuela there have been, traditionally, three groups of paumpered people: PDV workers. Military men (a few women. very very few) Landowners. Chavez initiated the Plan Bolivar 2000 which was basically a way to give them more power. Maybe this heads of the branches were scared. The I.G seemed way too business-men oriented. Maybe they saw their heads rolling and their pockets emptying. Who knows? What happened happened. And that was simple: On Saturday night, Chavez returned. On Sunday, on a table with his cronnies by his side, the Vice President embraced Chavez, and with that embrace Chavez recovered the Executive power. So you see. It definitely involved the military. Big time. It definitely involved business people and private interests. But, another possibility, was it all a Auto-Coup? Those who know are not talking. But was is true is that since that moment, things here got worse. -------------------- quote:Random Jack Vance Quote Manual Generator Apparatus (Cugel's Saga) Posts: 604 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4592
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written Monday, July 19 2004 22:37
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(Triple posting. I'm going to hell) (This is very very bad. And I'm self-indulging too much. I will gladly accept the punishment. I know this is a forum for games and not this. But. . . now that I started. . . I'll go to the gallows when the time comes) PDV was now militarized for all intents and purposes, the highest ranking managers, VP and so on were military men. The president was a military man. The next months were a mess. Chavez strenghten his hand over several laws. But it was still, let's say, tolerable. The CD continued to call people to March, as that was the only thing that it seemed to know how to do. Verbal assault from one side of the ring to the other and vice-versa. Internationally, no one could make or tails of what was going on. I mean, if Chavez was such an ogre, why could all TV stations and Newspapers say whatever they wanted?! Isn't freedom of expression on of the thermometers of a free society, and its supression one of the sure-fire signs of dictorships? Journalists came from all over the world and couldn't get it. Well. Chavez has always maintained, specially once you cross the Caribbean, or the borders with Brasil and Colombia, an impecable image of a democratic man. One with populists ideas, sure. He has never hidden the fact that he admires Castro. That Chavez cannot make up his mind whether to call him brother or father (his words) He is against globalization. A cute and popular stand to take. That he wants to create for Latin America something akin to the EU. That he wants to strenghten the independence of the Latin American market. He has helped Bolivia (he appeared next to the President of Bolivia when he took office, both from the Presidential house, in the balcony, waving at the Bolivian people) Sure he was pals with Saddam Hussein, but Irak is a big oil producer, right? Makes sense. And so on and so forth. Just another clown with clownish ideas which may or may not come to fruition. For December of 2002 the CD came up with the following brilliant idea: Let's do another National Strike. To force him to resign, of course. Oy. It began in the first week of December. It began with PDV. On a Thursday, if I remember correctly, either that or a Tuesday, a few of the PDV workers went to one of the PDV buildings to march and protest. Not too many. A few hundred. My sister-in-law and my nephew where there. The NG came. The NG bombarded them with tear gas, beated some with their sticks (all of this appeared on TV). The NG did their duty. This incensed people again. But worse than in April because, well, the pot boils and it has to explode. The Strike got worse. More businesses closed. Mostly Chavista businesses and a few multinational enterprises didn't. But they were few and far between. (It was a Tuesday!) Because on Wednesday one of the Oil tankers, the. . . heck what was its name. Some of them have Misses Names. She was a Miss World from the seventies. AGH! Well. That Oil Tanker refused to touch soil. It threw anchor in the bay a few kilometers from the coast. This was a big sign. Soon other tankers followed. Until all of them did. The Strike continued. Things got progressively worse. Then on December 6th, which was a Friday, something happened. A few months before, back in October, some of the biggest names from the military leadership appeared on TV again. Some faces were familiar from those who had taken and given away. They placed themselves under a kind of special disobedience, a civil disobedience kind of thing but which they could do even being military personnel. They went to a Plaza which is, coincidentally, three or so blocks from where I live and I'm writing this. They took the plaza and called, dramatically, the Plaza of Liberty. (The plaza is in a county whose mayor is not Chavista. Most of the governors and mayors are Chavistas with very few exceptions) That night of December 6th a lot of people had gathered in the Plaza. This had been a common occurence since that day in October. I was gonna go, was actually getting ready to do so, finishing doing somethin on some game on the computer. My mom (I live with my folks, I am old enough to be independent, but here in Venezuela this is NOT frown down upon, in fact, it is expected and not a big deal. Things are way too expensive) called me. A few crazy guys had reached the Plaza and were killing people left and right. Result: one was arrested. 29 wounded And. . . 3 died. A professor from the same university I teach on (he taught chemistry) a young girl of 17 and an old lady. (Oh, I forgot! After Chavez returned from his "vacation" in April, there was a looting of some parts of the city. Mostly small business. Call it a "gift" for his followers if you will. The police was nowhere to be seen. Much less the NG who I guess, have better things to do. This lasted 3 days.) The man, called Joao, was later on released, he was called by Chavez himself in TV, publicly, a hero of the revolution. Oh, remember those guys who had shot some people from the bridge. They were "judged" They were released. A couple of them (those whom you saw more in the video) were sent to Cuba by Chavez himself who also, in TV, publicly, called them heroes of the revolution. (Agh!) The strike continued. MArches. Chavez was moving himself like crazy finding food where could, buying it from Brazil and Colimbia (who I have to guess where rather happy) The lines for Gas were enormous. Oil Tankers came from Brazil and other places to supply us whith what little gas we got. Nothing happened. Every day we all sat to see the leaders of the opposition, those from CD and its affiliates, to see if they could give us good news. March again tomorrow. Fine. And nothing happened. Cesar Gaviria was in town. He was the president of the OEA (in English, AAS, I think, Association of American States. (LATIN America and NORTH America for you Union fellows :) )) You see a Group of Friends was formed. He was there, some presidents from other countries. A Dialogue Table was Opened. So both sides could sit and talk over their difference. I pity them all. Because nothing happened. Another huge confrontation took place in Janurary (now I'm forgetting the date. First week) (big day for us, since on that day Perez Jimenez the dictator who came before the 40 years of demoracy was banished) More people died. Oh, and in some of those marches we had, the NG appeared. Sometimes with gas, other times they left us alone. Sometimes they shot blanks, sometimes they didn't. Sometimes they beat people with sticks and those electric gizmos, sometimes they didn't. Status quo. Basically, we could march anywhere we darned pleased. But the downtown was off limits. Sorry. That ain't a part of the cities we oligarchs are allowed in. There was a march where we tried to go to the Pantheon where Bolivar's body was to celebrate his death (celebrate, should it not be mourned? respecy maybe?) A woman. ONE woman was allowed in with a bouquett of flowers. Many NG and military personnel, tanks (well, not tanks the urban tanks that are a mixtures between a tank and hommer (we called them tanquetas))and many many men with guns were all there to ensure we didn't misbehave. On the first week of January it was different. We wanted, doggone it, to go to the Proceres avenue (Proceres = forefathers)to show our respect (well by this time this is trite. It was a power struggle, a battle, a war if you will, making to the place would be a triumph for us. Strategic? Ideological? You pick.) We didn't make it far. The NG stopped us good. This time the bombardment of tear was abysmal. Also, on the other side the Chavistas were shooting. But the NG seemed to be ignoring them, sometimes they fired a cannister or two. Most people went back home. Others stayed. It got bad. A lot wounded, one died. Finally, entropy embraced the strike and it was over. On February we did a HUGE signature event. We were signing to demand that Chavez resigned and for other things as well. This was something we could do. The CONSTITUTION ALLOWED US!!!! We were signing, basically, asking for elections, asking for a referendum. The strike ended. Chavez controlled the monetary exchange. You wanted dollars, sorry. Your company wanted them, needed them? Well. Maybe. Wait and see. The black market erupted. Things got really really bad economically. Oh, and 25000 or so PDV workers were fired for having joined in the strike. The constitution allows for civil protest. But, again PDV forms part of the government so they have a right to fire whom they want, right? So, what about those missions and things he has done to help people? Let me tell you. -------------------- quote:Random Jack Vance Quote Manual Generator Apparatus (Cugel's Saga) Posts: 604 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
Member # 4484
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written Monday, July 19 2004 22:39
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I live in China, and you can't speak about democracy in this contry... But problem is not the democracy but the peoples who gouvern the contry:in China, no vote (or a little bit, but with just one politic stand), but peoples live kinda well, and on the international scene, they worth thousand times your american way of life... -------------------- "Il est interdit de se battre sur le Champ du Massacre; dit-il avant de marquer une pause, le temps de reflechir a la logique de ses propos." Discworld, The Colour of Magic Posts: 178 | Registered: Monday, June 7 2004 07:00 |
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Off With Their Heads
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written Monday, July 19 2004 23:40
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Whew. I just read an article about how George W. Bush was saying something about how Venezuela should have free and fair elections, so I guessed that something was up, but I didn't realize quite how bad it was. I complain about the government here in the U.S. (and it really could be a LOT better), but I guess it could be a lot worse, too. EDIT: Lack of a democratic tradition and political culture is definitely a problem. Russia in the past few years has had issues in part (and only in part -- there are a number of other factors) due to this. [ Monday, July 19, 2004 23:42: Message edited by: Just call me Kel ] -------------------- Arancaytar: Every time you ask people to compare TM and Kel, you endanger the poor, fluffy kittens. Kelandon's Pink and Pretty Page!!: the authorized location for all things by me The Archive of all released BoE scenarios ever Posts: 7968 | Registered: Saturday, February 28 2004 08:00 |
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Infiltrator
Member # 4592
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written Tuesday, July 20 2004 00:02
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(Quadruple and last one.) (I think if I stop to think of what I am doing. I feel terrible, but. . . Will never happened again!!!) Escuelas Bolivarianas: Bolivarian Schools. Objective: give education to everybody. No matter who you are or how much money you have. Supposed number of them in existence: Over 3000! How many actually work? I do not know. You see, Venezuela is a small country. There are avout 25 million of us. Caracas holds about 8. Maracaibo, the other big city--which happens to be by the lake where our biggest source of oil comes from--holds about 5 or 6. The other cities take care of the rest. Then there are a bunch of little towns. Very little. Do the math for those schools. Remember we already had a bunch of them. How many kids do we have?! Most of these schools are in what we call the Interior (not Caracas) and many in the so called small towns. But are they there? Do they work? Where are they? Sure you see a couple in the Chains. But that is all! A couple. Once in a while he used to, not anymore, be seen in a Chain blessing the opening of one. Then he suddenly announces there are 3000. Oh, and yeah, he announces publicly how there are Cuban teachers in them Cubans. We have had a huge immigration of them. Cuban doctors. Cuban teachers. Cuban military instructors. Cuban doctors are something else. They go to the slums and take the place of perfectly competent Venezuelan ones. You have a problem? They give you a napkin a couple of pills. Thre have been documented cases of kids dying after being treated by them, because why take them to hospitals? (Would they have survivied otherwise? I don't know) Oh, and hospitals. I've taught a few doctors. There are no medicines. There is not even money being given to Hospitals for the medicines they need. Horrible. The doctors who have talked to me are horrified. Maybe we are being biased, but I think here there is a line to be drawn. Universidad Bolivariana: This was another great idea. (See? His ideas, on paper, are actually good. Which just makes all of this be even more irksome!) Say you are a student who graduated from high school. There aren't many universities in this country. Many are private. The best used to be public, btw. Simon Bolivar has world-wide recognition. Excellent on the fields of engineering. Truly so. The Central University of Venezuela (UCV) was not only awesome, but I heard that it was being considered to be named world patrimony, or whatever the name is in English. Their medical school was top notch. Really. But you can't make it to them. Poor grades, maybe. Poor as in no money, maybe. (SB and UCV were free, being public. Sorry. Are) No problem. You go to the Bolivarian University. Wanna be a doctor? Don't want to spend 10 years or so of your life stuying to become one? No problem. They give you a degree in four. Oh, and that is that. That is your degree to be a DOCTOR. Four years. You end up like those Cuban doctors. Yeah. I've heard too. That in Cuba medicine is awesome. Maybe. Preventive Medicine, that is. In his Sunday program, Alo! Presidente, a young lady appeared and commented that they had no text books. Chavez was irate (this seemed to come as a surprise to him). Nothing more has been heard about it. He opened it. Fanfare and all. And now silence. Mision Ribas Mision Robinson. These were also a great idea. Basically they were created to finally, once and for all, take care of the problem of illiteracy in this country. Which is huge, by the by. We heard the announcements. We saw the Chain were he opened them. And we haven't heard anything else. Then there was the Road of the Arepa. He would give people money to make their own little Arepa Shop (Arepa is a bit like a muffin. Made with maiz. Very typical. Very yummy) Yeah a few were opened. But, again, nothing more has been said about them. Then there was the Road of the Empanada. Ditto. (And empanada is like a gyro, close it completely. Inside you put fish or meat. It is made with. . . oh man what is it? Maiz too?) Then there was the Mision Barrio Adentro (Mission Inside the Slum) That was supposed to be one where they entered the slums and made sure crime stopped there. (We average 100 deaths a weekend. Lately, since the President is on campaign not to be revocated, the police has withdrawn the actual numbers. We just don't know.) There were a few others, I've forgotten them. Oh, and he promised thousands of houses. He built a few. They were very cool looking. I passed by once a few years ago. Passed again recently. Nothing. Dilapidated most of them. He speaks. He puts on a Chain or two. Nowadays, almost every day we have a Mini-Chain, an Information Bulletin, where they tell us about this success of the government, or that other one. Always highly localized. Always as if filmed with a zoom. And always, something different (which would be great if all of them were supported accordingly) Help the masses? Let me tell you about La Guaira. That's a city by the sea. Big coastal port. The International Airport/National Airport for Caracas is also there. Back in 1999 we had huge torrential rains. Awful. Something that apparently happens every 50 years or so. Floods. Terrible. Buildings, entire buildings, were washed away. Thousands lost their houses. It was a true tragedy, perhaps you saw something in the papers. Countries all over the world offered to help us. They sent money. The US actually sent some highly specialized equipment which would have helped IMMENSELY. What did this agh (withheld the dreaded word) guy do? HE ORDERED THEM BACK!!!! HE SAID WE DIDN'T NEED HELP FROM THEM!!!! 5 years have gone by. You should take a look. It was called the Vargas Tragedy because that's the name of the state where la Guaira is. So much money we have. So much. And he did didly about it. Eventually they paved the road. They built a house or two. That is all. Freedom of Speech. Yeah we have that. He has threatened over and over again with the Mordaza Law (Mordaza is the piece of cloth they put in you mouth so you don't talk. Gag Law, something like that) Hasn't done so yet. He does it and the mask finally falls down. The CNE, the National Electorial Center, it was supposed to be formed of 5 people, 2 chavistas, 2 opposition and the head, the president, in-between. The president. Carrasquero. He will be the next president of the Supreme Court. Just like that. Oh yeah, he is chavista. The number of traps and decoys and booby traps that have taken place between 2003 and now to get this doggone referendum accepted are too many to list here (be interesting if I could) We finally, because we had the Carter Center and the OEA and other international observers got the signatures to get it done. Barely. Out of over 6 million who signed, 3700000 were "accepted" Then from those about a million and a half were considered "repairable" which meant you had to go and signed again. Even more obstacles. So many. Finally, with a meagre 100000 surplus we got the number we needed. Torture: a few people have come out into the opened and confessed to being taken prisoners and tortured. True? Not true? The Human Rights Watch and other human right movements the world over have issued communiques warning against the blatant disrespect against human rights which take place here. They ought to know. Countless of TV reporters and other journalists have been accosed, injured, etc, by the NG, the millitary, the police. Many of these incidents have happened during marches, many have been filmed. It used to be that few countries cared. Now most have noticed, and his image, internationally, as the nice guy he had worked so hard is eroding. Fast. In March of this year was, perhaps the final drop. (and with this I promise to end this!) What precipitated it. . .? Just another march. (The purpose was to put preasure into the CNE to stop being so damn ludicrous with their slowness and obstacle placement!) I didn't go, was rp with some friends. This time the march went into chavista territory. The way the NG behaved was in a way typical, the works. But what made this one unique was the blatant and obvious disrespect the showed for civilians. Even worse than before. Deathtold was small, thank the gods. Afterwards, at night, neighbors left the buildings and close the streets with burning tires. A night vigil commenced. I had to stay at my friends house because the residence is self-enclosed and they closed it. People from the slums had come to throw stones and molotovs at us. The Ng wasn't around. They, NG came back later. At one point during the night, 8ish or so, we went to buy some soda from the drugstore. We got to experience even more tear gas. The NG was throwing it, willy-nilly so the neighbors cooled down. I guess they had to. That lasted for about a week. A kind of self-imposed and not very kosher strike. The images that came of that one were the last drop that made many of these human rights movements to finally notice us. Many of the people who were arrested, and there dozens upon dozens of them, underwent a torture or another. Electricity in their testies, etc. A man was forced to watch his wife being raped. He was fed hair and had his entire body beaten to a pulp (the autopsy reports showed this) These events made the EU take more noticed than they previously had. The US has been anti Chavez for a while. Rumours speak of below the table dealing between Bush and Chavez. Oil is king. Who knows? A couple of soldiers were burned alive in a barrack. Their bodies, after a couple of weeks, were allowed to be seen by other doctors. The mayor of one of the counties here in Caracas was arrested. Because he went to the Cuban embassy to cool down the small group of demonstrators there. A few of the generals from that Plaza I told you about have been arrested. The Plaza went to be being a simple plaza. Ever since 2002 I cannot go downtown. You see, I was born here but my parents are Spaniards. I'm whiter than a scared ghost. But, beyond race. If a moreno goes to the downtown with good clothes he is an oligarch. This country is divided like it has never been. There are more annecdotes, but I think this is enough for now. As for absentism: we used to love voting. 20% was our highest. Not anymore. Maybe because 40 years of mediocrity did their job and people are just sick and tired. Here are a few links more. (Washington Post, New York Times, Wall Street Journal have published editorials on him. (The Dayly Journal, an English newspaper here in Venezuela is anti-chavez but not as hard as others.) This link offers a pro-chavez version of some of the things I've talked about. English http://uniondelbarrio.org/lvp/newspapers/02/mar01feb03/pg05.html This one is about the film "The Revolution Would not be Televised" which is highly biased towards the government. Highly so. Yet, it has won quite a few awards. There you go. http://www.chavezthefilm.com/ This article is an outsiders view of what's going on: http://www.flonnet.com/fl1916/19160580.htm This one is from front line world. A bit of an outsiders view. http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/fellows/venezuela0803/2.html This one is a more encyclopedic background. Good resume. http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Hugo%20Chavez This one is from the website of those millitary people I told took over the plaza. Biased as it can possibly get. http://www.militaresdemocraticos.com/articulos/en/20030120-04.html This one is another outsider's view. Deals with the usual. http://www.inthesetimes.com/issue/26/01/feature3.shtml This one is from a marxist site. http://www.marxist.com/Latinam/encounters_with_hugo_chavez.html And tomorrow I'll see if I can find one of their official sites. Alec, I hope this has answered some questions. Many topics I didn't comment on. Commented too much on others. Might have been better to offer links or having written this in a more organized essay form. Well these very long stream of consciousness quadruple posting was the result. Anyway. Good night to those west of me. Good morning to those east. Good night. -------------------- quote:Random Jack Vance Quote Manual Generator Apparatus (Cugel's Saga) Posts: 604 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
Member # 3151
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written Tuesday, July 20 2004 00:26
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Wow. Just wow. Thanks for the information on that one. Don't worry about the quadruple-post. Interesting stuff, very much so. Trust me when I say that stream-of-consciousness is only irritating when you're trying to fill space with nothing to say. That's definitely not the case here. [ Tuesday, July 20, 2004 00:41: Message edited by: Ultimate Weapon Custer ] -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Tuesday, July 20 2004 09:42
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Thanks Alec. Glad you liked it. Blaspheme: I'm glad that at the very least, as you say, the live conditions in China are good. Never been there so I wouldn't know. I've heard too many opinions from different people to start arguing one way or another. Doesn't it bother you (personally as well as a people) that degree of control? Has the fact that China is becoming increasingly more and more open to idea of capitalism (filtered of course) made any change in the way the country is run in the last, say 10 years or so? Cheers! -------------------- quote:Random Jack Vance Quote Manual Generator Apparatus (Cugel's Saga) Posts: 604 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00 |
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Bob's Big Date
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written Tuesday, July 20 2004 12:22
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I find the positive sentiments towards China as it becomes more economically liberal somewhat savage: basically, we do not much care whether or not its people are oppressed, we just care whether or not they're being oppressed by communists. A capitalist oligarchy in China would, by the general enthusiasm for anything the PROC does to distance itself from Maoist economics, be A-OK. No need to politically liberalize the People's Republic as long as it's economically tied to the West. Sickening and greedy. Unfortunately, that's how it goes. -------------------- The biggest, the baddest, and the fattest. Posts: 2367 | Registered: Friday, June 27 2003 07:00 |
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By Committee
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written Tuesday, July 20 2004 12:41
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It depends on where you live in China - the coastal cities for the most part are doing very well, but if you go inland you'll find pretty severe poverty. China's enormous population makes it unique when considering economic development - it's almost as if they have their own world population within their borders, complete with developed and undeveloped regions to contend with, much like their are developed and undeveloped nations in the world. Their economic development and social "experiments" often take place on the scale of an entire country! :) Another interesting factoid: China has 350 million smokers! That's almost as many people (men, women, and children combined) as the population of North America. Yikes! Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Lifecrafter
Member # 1768
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written Tuesday, July 20 2004 14:08
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That's something like Canada and the US put together, right (sorry, don't know Canada's pop)? In any case, China also has a severe AIDS problem now, and the govt has been covering it up for the most part, at the local govt level. Russia and the rest of Asia are very possibly on the verge of an AIDS epidemic as well. -------------------- "Oh, North Wind, why frighten others? In Nature's family all are brothers. Puff and blow and wheeze and hiss; You can't frighten Shingebiss. Bring your frost and ice and snow; I'm still free to come and go. You can never frighten me, One who never fears is FREE!" -Shingebiss, the mighty duck Posts: 830 | Registered: Tuesday, August 20 2002 07:00 |
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By Committee
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written Tuesday, July 20 2004 15:48
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Canada, the US, AND Mexico. Woohoo! 100 posts! :) Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00 |
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Warrior
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written Tuesday, July 20 2004 20:15
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I live in the Yunnan province, it's REALLY not like Shaghai or Hongkong, who are more dvelopped. My town is a four millions souls province capitale, near the Vietnam, the Myanmar, and the Cambodia. I've benn around, on the poorest places in China, and it's true, the campaigns are poor... But, really, the gouvernement do a lot of effort to help the population, since the last ten years. They try to decentralize, and give the poorest places a lot of money.Of course, the biggest problem is corruption, so it doesn't go very fast... The economy change, the minds change also:people have the right to critique the gouvernment's policies, and there is, since some years, a democratic party. The people aren't oppressed, you can say what you think (mmh, perhaps not all you think, but so...), childrens aren't abused, the national minority are respected and helped, the contry's economy grow fast and well, and there isn't anyone starving in all China. In the Mao's period, it was harder, of course, but now, it's really better.Give China ten years, and it's gonna be a free and powerfull country! Peoples, if you don't no what to do for the holy-days, come and check by yourself! PS:About AIDS, it's true, the problem is really big, but now, the gouvernment give more information.When you think about China's problem, you have to keep in mind that it's the most populated contry of the world, with a ****ing big territory, a lot of borderlines with a lot of completely crazy contry surronding them! You know, in the 1900, China was like the european's middle-age contry.They have to grow fast, like Japan, but where the Japan grows insane, the China have keep the sanity. (Raah, my english sucks, I need 20 minutes write what!) -------------------- "Il est interdit de se battre sur le Champ du Massacre; dit-il avant de marquer une pause, le temps de reflechir a la logique de ses propos." Discworld, The Colour of Magic Posts: 178 | Registered: Monday, June 7 2004 07:00 |
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Infiltrator
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written Tuesday, July 20 2004 20:25
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Blaspheme: Thanks for the data, man. I'm glad to see that the Maoist ways are dying. I hope that China wakes up completely from its slumber, and I don't mean this from a solely economic point of view, but from an all-encompassing one. I hope you all embrace the right to vote and choose what political system you want. Hopefully such political system will be able to provide a continuous progress for your people (social/economical/cultural, etc), and with such an enormous population that is something that will indeed take time and the continual effort of consecutive governments. BTW, don't worry about your English, man. It's fine. Besides, you should see the English of some of the people in this forum, and some of them are English-speaking folks! [ Tuesday, July 20, 2004 20:26: Message edited by: Pandolfo the Pugilist of Ooze ] -------------------- quote:Random Jack Vance Quote Manual Generator Apparatus (Cugel's Saga) Posts: 604 | Registered: Sunday, June 20 2004 07:00 |