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Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Saturday, July 28 2007 07:25 Profile #360
It is also entirely possible that facts were "massaged" after the fact to fit with prior important prophecies. For example, the whole tracing Jesus' linneage back to David thing. Or really, most of the birth story. But whatevs.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Friday, July 27 2007 10:33 Profile #343
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Faith is rational and logical and can even be quantified. If there were no such thing as faith we would not have credit cards. When you walk into a bank and request to borrow the banker does not base his decision on how he feels about you, he goes based off of your payment history and how much you earn. If you have to pay in 24 installments and you’ve paid 23 on time, then he has every reason to think that you’ll pay the 24th unless something goes very wrong. That’s what faith or trust is. It’s hope based on evidence…that is unless it’s blind faith which I agree is irrational.

Prophecy is a strong line of evidence, logic, honesty of the penmen, harmony of 40 different penmen over 1600 years, and practical value even though ancient are some other proofs that convinced me personally in the biblical message.
Faith is not rational per se, Stillness. It is a belief in something for which there is no evidence of surety. Faith is not quantifiable; probability is. Faith merely represents willingness to take a risk, whatever the probability involved. A bank takes a risk on a debtor based on the probability they will receive their investment back from him. Risks frequently don't even require faith on the part of banks, since most loans these days are almost always secured, not to mention the fact that loses will be soaked up by other successful investments, in the aggregate; in other words, they have minimized the risk.

Prophesy is a poor line of evidence. Almost every major world religion is just about as old as Christianity, and has had its own prophesies that they claim have been fulfilled, as well as advice for practical living.

For me, at this time, none of the major religions has "minimized the risk" sufficiently for me to waste my time with some equivalent of "Pascal's Wager." It's like being trapped on the Island of Truth-Tellers and Liars, where everone is saying "I'm right, he's wrong," and there's almost nothing else that distinguishes them.

[ Friday, July 27, 2007 10:43: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Friday, July 27 2007 09:30 Profile #341
It's not impossible that one group could have it right. It seems more likely though that as creatures, we lack the ability to perceive or comprehend "divinity," if you will, much like a blind person can't perceive light. It doesn't prevent us from taking wild stabs at it, though, especially when those wild stabs are politically useful, like for purposes of making sure wives obey their husbands.

Or, for all we know, God actually has talked with a few people throughout the ages. There's scant evidence for this, though. What's amusing to me is that people are mostly inclined to believe that anyone these days claiming to be the mouthpiece of God is crazy, but entirely willing to believe that another man 2000 years ago doing the same thing was the real deal, as if the passage of time and the great mass of believers somehow serves to verify the matter.

[ Friday, July 27, 2007 09:33: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Friday, July 27 2007 06:49 Profile #333
It's a perfectly logical conclusion, and is derived from the fact that not one single religion has verifiable evidence that what it asserts is, in fact, correct. Everyone is taking it on faith. Faith is by its nature illogical and irrational.

[ Friday, July 27, 2007 06:49: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Friday, July 27 2007 06:17 Profile #331
But from there, we went to the fact that many sects claim to know what "God's way" is, and their definitions frequently vary on many levels. This suggests that no one knows what God's morality is, barring arrival at it by unverifiable, happy accident.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Thursday, July 26 2007 17:19 Profile #322
No reason to get all enraged about that aspect of his faith. While it's understandable that you had a very bad experience with the JWs, insulting his faith as not actually being "Christian" is a bit below the belt. Let's keep it more or less civil here, folks! :)
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Harry Potter *WITH SPOILERS* in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Thursday, July 26 2007 11:51 Profile #30
Obviously professions tame enough that everyone lived happily ever after, at least for 19 years.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Thursday, July 26 2007 11:23 Profile #315
The folks in Waco were also violating a whole slew of other federal laws - it was the ATF that went after them initially.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Thursday, July 26 2007 09:07 Profile #312
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

No, much came from the government itself. You might argue that the government representatives were in fact representing or spurred on by a different kind of Christianity and in some cases you’d be right, but not all. One of the biggest landmark decisions was purely nationalistic and secular – that of forcing schoolchildren to salute the flag or pledge allegiance. There have also been decisions on conscientious objection, parental rights, and (if I’m not mistaken) patient rights, among scores of other first amendment rights.
Last I checked, the government (and for the sake of disambiguation, I'll assume we're talking about the Federal government) has pretty much held off on crafting laws that persecute Christianity, and when it has, it's been called on it very quickly by the courts, and rightfully so. As for your saluting the flag and pledging allegiance case, that was predominantly a speech clause case, not a religion case. I'm not sure where you're going with those other examples, but yeah - there is a pretty wide body of case law out there concerning individual rights as a matter of constitutional law. I'll bet you $100 though that none of them concern a matter wherein the government was persecuting Christians.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Thursday, July 26 2007 08:57 Profile #311
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

A creator has the right to determine how his how his creation is made. The creation has no say in this since they don’t exist before they’re created. The most a creation could do is question the wisdom in their design afterwards – that is if the creator was an ingenious one so as to endow the creation with the ability to wonder, imagine, and express this (which would probably belie any complaint). Once the creation is made the creator can then determine if it carries out its function properly. He is solely and supremely qualified to do this. Others, including the creation itself, may have opinions about whether or not the creation is doing what they think is good, but by definition only the creator has say as to reasons for creating.
IMAGE(http://www.blog.speculist.com/archives/cylon.jpg)
THE CYLONS SAY DON'T BE SO SURE, STILLNESS.

[ Thursday, July 26, 2007 08:57: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Thursday, July 26 2007 06:53 Profile #305
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

Incidentally, quite a few freedoms enjoyed in this country are due to legal battles over persecution of Christians and attempts to restrict us and force us to deviate from our faith.
This was mostly the result of pressure from one kind of Christianity on another kind of Christianity; if anything, you have the forces of secularism and pluralism to thank for your freedom to practice Christianity the way you choose.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Wednesday, July 25 2007 12:01 Profile #292
(fear or love) + creativity = spirituality.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Harry Potter *WITH SPOILERS* in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Wednesday, July 25 2007 04:47 Profile #19
I actually teared up when Dobby died - sure, he was annoying, but I don't think there was a more innocent, loyal character in the story. He was in no way hesitant to sacrifice himself, and I guess that touched me.

As for the Harry-Voldemort thing, I am a bit confused by the whole "he chose your blood for his reincarnation which created yet another bond" thing. How the heck did that effect things? What I think I understand is that (a) Harry's head was a horcrux, (b) it was unintentionally made, and resulted in Voldemort's soul being separated into 8 portions instead of the 7 he had intended, which presumably would have very negative consequences, and (c) when Voldemort AK'ed Harry in the woods and Harry went to King's Cross, Harry could have chosen to go ahead and die, and that would have taken Voldemort with him.

Maybe I'm wrong on (c) though.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Is illegal downloading such a bad thing? in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Tuesday, July 24 2007 10:32 Profile #40
quote:
Originally written by Alex:

OK, so assume I put up a protection racket. I provide a valuable service - security. It's not consensual, though.
Citizenship is consensual. The U.S. does not require that you remain here - you can always renounce it and go elsewhere. The catch is that you'll probably need to find someone else to take you, and will probably have to pay taxes no matter where you go. Taxes also cover more than security. Do you really feel you are being "robbed"? How much in taxes have you had to pay in your life? Yet presumably you benefit from using the roads paid for by public moneys, the water and sewage systems that service your residence, the fire departments, public education, etc.

Sorry, but it makes me very irate when people moan about taxes "robbing them blind," yet expect the government to magically address all wrongs that may befall them.

[ Tuesday, July 24, 2007 10:40: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Is illegal downloading such a bad thing? in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Tuesday, July 24 2007 08:46 Profile #36
quote:
Originally written by Koranuso:

But since our society doesn't recognize minors as having any rights (can't sign contracts, own property, that sort of thing), I don't think they should be forced to obey the same copyright laws.
This is absolutely untrue. Minors certainly enjoy all constitutional rights that adults do. Further, minors can and do own property. They are also free to enter contracts with adults, though in most jurisdictions such contracts are voidable per se, so any vendor worth his salt will have parents co-sign. That doesn't give minors carte blanche to enter into a contract, gain the property, and then reneg on the agreement; generally, if the minor still possesses the property, he has to return it.

This isn't a question of rights, however; it's a question of criminal laws, which apply to everyone, whether minor or at the age of majority, citizen or foreigner within the territory of the U.S. Sure, in some cases punishment may be mitigated based on a convict's age, but no one gets off for free, nor should they. To argue that a minor should be allowed to steal a candy bar because he doesn't have a right to hold property holds no water; neither does the same argument for violation of a copyright.

As for having access to software that minors "NEED," most minors can access this through their schools and universities. Most schools and universities these days have more than adequate computer facilities available for web surfing, research, and word processing, and students get unprecedented access to databases of academic journals, as well as freedom to print these articles and share them with other students through Academic Fair Use laws. The rest of the professional world, on the other hand, has to pay a premium, sometimes on a per article basis, for access to the same resources, and they aren't cheap.

The reality here is that you think you "NEED" games, which are probably the only software you care about, and ironically the software minors probably need least.

EDIT: Taxation isn't theft any more than a utility charging you for water or power is theft; in both cases, you're paying for goods and services, and in the case of taxes, frequently you're paying for benefits that well exceed the value of the amount you're paying, especially if you're poor. It amazes me how myopic people can be on this point.

[ Tuesday, July 24, 2007 08:54: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Is illegal downloading such a bad thing? in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Tuesday, July 24 2007 04:35 Profile #34
While the DoI doesn't have legal weight per se, it does serve a function of providing the framework upon which the Cnstitution was built and the metric by which it is measured. The Constitution really does not specify what values it upholds, other than a brief blurb in the Preamble. For the most part, the Constitution is a document of means; paragraph 2 of the Declaration in many ways identifies the ends: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." I.e., natural rights.

What's articulated from paragraph 2 of the DoI is important, because it's basically the standard by which we judge all of our laws. If you think about it, a law isn't really valid in our society unless we determine that it is also just, or in other words, passes a societal "smell test."
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Iffy in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Tuesday, July 24 2007 04:14 Profile #5
Wow - didn't realize it was actually a full-blown pirated version. Maybe Jeff could take legal action...

EDIT: Not that I like the kid, but it seemed his heart was in the right place, even if his brain (as usual) wasn't - he is a young'un, after all. Pains me to say this, but I hope the ban isn't permanent. As they say, there was no malice aforethought here; just negligence.

Just for my own understanding, the Oberon Media link was legit, right?

[ Tuesday, July 24, 2007 04:17: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Ilegal Downloading? in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Monday, July 23 2007 10:29 Profile #5
Sorry for the DP - this post is a push to get my last one to appear.

Why are the boards doing this?

[ Monday, July 23, 2007 10:30: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Ilegal Downloading? in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Monday, July 23 2007 10:28 Profile #4
Iffy, Oberon Media is a publisher/distributor. Jeff likely has an agreement with them to distribute the game in order to increase its circulation. They receive a cut of the sale price, but if the game is reaching a wider audience as a result, then it's worth it to Jeff, especially if (as is obvious) he retains the right to sell the software on his own site and through other vendors.This way he gets more money than he would otherwise.

Your concern is touching, though.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Monday, July 23 2007 10:17 Profile #266
Sorry, I meant backstepping.

I just find it amusing that you are utterly unskeptical when it comes to historical accounts or questions concerning the Bible, yet seem to be very skeptical of other accounts of history, including those contemporaneous with Biblical Tymes.

[ Monday, July 23, 2007 10:21: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Ilegal Downloading? in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Monday, July 23 2007 10:10 Profile #1
If he's not giving away a registration code, then it's probably still just the demo, in which case it's not so big a deal. That's the nature of shareware.

[ Monday, July 23, 2007 10:11: Message edited by: Drew ]
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00
Social Degradation and Religious Decay (Split from "Life on Europa") in General
Drew
By Committee
Member # 4233
 written Monday, July 23 2007 08:15 Profile #264
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

And somebody at a different time saying morals were decreasing has nothing to do with now. Maybe they were declining, maybe they were not.
You are very selective with which elements of the past you choose to venerate. Yet there is more context and historical account for the claims made by Cicero as a part of the Catilinarian Conspiracy than there are for the Biblical lessons and histories you take to heart. It's a bit dichotomous.

quote:
I don't know how you keep reading ignorance as a tool into my posts. Do you think home schooling makes someone ignorant? I wasn't saying parents should home school, I was saying that parents should be informed that things may be different than when they were children and prepare their child accordingly.
quote:
Originally written by Stillness:

For example, if parents know that the environment in school is more sexually free than when they were in school and they recognize that this is a danger to their child they might choose to home school or teach the child differently to prepare them for the challenges.
Italicized for emphasis. You're backtracking here. To address your other point though, I think that sheltering is a bad practice, because it doesn't change the reality. I agree with the crux of what you say though - the right thing to do is properly inform one's children so that they are armed to deal with the world. I disagree with your methods, which I think are the equivalent of telling them they have to be good or Santa Claus will bring them coal for Christmas.
Posts: 2242 | Registered: Saturday, April 10 2004 07:00

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